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The State Of American Public Schools  
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17491 posts, RR: 45
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

I knew they were awful but I had no idea they were this bad:

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/salisbury-050217.html

Public schools cost more than private schools:

"Data from the National Center for Education Statistics indicate that the average private elementary school tuition in America is less than $4,000 and the average private secondary school tuition is around $6,000. Public schools spend far more per student, so states could save money by allowing more children to attend less expensive private schools. "

"In fact, New York City already has the second-highest school spending level in the nation. Only Washington, D.C., spends more, but doesn't get better results. That's why the D.C. mayor, Anthony Williams, supported a new school-voucher program that gives children in his city up to $7,500 for tuition, transportation, and fees to attend local private schools.

The D.C. program enrolled over 1,000 children in private schools this school year. The $7,500 spent per student is far less than the $13,355 the district currently spends to educate a child in its public schools. Next year, the program will expand to almost 2,000 private school scholarships.
"

Private schools have a great student/teacher ratio; public schools have a great bureaucrat/student ratio:

"A 1989 study by the Manhattan Institute showed that New York City public schools had 6,000 administrators on the payroll while the city's Catholic schools had only 25, even though parochial schools served about one-forth as many students."


E pur si muove -Galileo
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

I can't address Public Schools in the US in general. My daughter has attended one school in the local Anchorage School District. On a scale of 1 to 10 I give the school an 8. On the same scale I give the district a 3+/4-.

I have had an issue with only one of her teachers (she's 11 now, this was her 3rd grade teacher) which I think was handled well by the Principal and didn't need to be escalated up the food chain. I had to explain to the teacher that it was okay to eat meat and fish and game, and that hunting was a way of life in Alaska (and elsewhere) despite her theories and that she should stick to teaching my daughter the three Rs and I'd worry about her values, ethics and morals. The principal agreed, end of situation.

The school building itself is very well maintained. The staff are very protective of the children. The Principal is a great guy, and was the vice principal until last year. He has been at the school quite a while and appears to know each student. He's not afraid of any job and you'll often see him with an orange vest and a stop sign in his hand, regardless of weather, playing "Crossing Guard".

The District of course has it's problems. Their operations are spread out like Cow Shit in a Pasture. They've tried to centralize operations, but rather than invest in renovating one of the many unoccupied structures in Anchorage they'd like to spend three times the money to build some high speed fancy office complex. The voters turned them down flat. So they tried again, but including the new office complex in another proposition that included much needed building maintenance and repairs. It failed, and because of their underhandedness, the building maintenance didn't pass either.

Schools in rural Alaska, where often times there are 1st thru 12th grade in the same building, and sometimes between two rooms, are in far better shape than some people think as far as their ability to educate students.

There are private schools in Anchorage, nearly all of them tied to a religion of some sort. While I don't denounce religion, I don't want my daughter's real world experiences and exposures limited by a religious school. She'll get a far greater picture of the 'real' world at a public school. And for those that read this from Anchorage, you'll exactly what I mean why I say "Annoy Prevo, Think for Yourself".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

I'm all for the seperation of school and state.

User currently offlineMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 873 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

A public education is a bullwark of the American republic, an institution that sets us apart from other states because we prepare all to be citizens, not a select few.

I dont know what statistics are those but, the good private schools in South Florida cost much more than that. THe only ones that cheap are shitty christian schools. Pinecrest, Gulliver, Sagemont, Ransom, Belén, St. Thomas are really expensive.



"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

A public education is a bullwark of the American republic,

Bulls**t. We got along just fine for scores of years without it, and the literacy rate in the USA was almost universal among free men. Not like today's appalling disaster that is the jobs program known as public schooling.

Public schooling and being indoctrinated by the state is utterly and profoundly un-American.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting MD-90 (reply 4):
Public schooling and being indoctrinated by the state is utterly and profoundly un-American.


Care to give some depth to this statement MD90 . . .

Tell me, in your 16-20 years of life, where were you educated. Your profile says your location is Mississippi STATE University. Don't you think you ought to get the hell out of there - it's a PUBLIC institution.

I'm a product of the Public School System, and I'll damned if I'm un-American there hero.

Your post isn't the most bizarre I've ever read on A-net, but you're sure running a very, very close second.


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

ANCFlyer,

Like in any school, we'd all agree, pretty much any child can go as far as he/she is willing to go. But I think the opportunities might be better in the private schools. I grew up going to private school, but also went to private and state funded colleges. At the college level, it's different. But what jumps at me is that if any of us were to go into a recruiter's office (like I've just visited), they're ready to tell of how disappointed they are with the public school system. Lots of kids go into the recruiter's office, take that shortened, mock ASVAB (4 sections, takes about 1/2 hour to an hour, if I'm correct) and about half of the kids, I understand, do pretty poorly. So poorly, they're told they don't qualify. I was told that it's because, in part, that the schools are given a certain amount of money by the government to produce graduates. The more graduates they produce, the more money they get. So they'll graduate the idiots along with the smart kids who earned their way. So the high schools don't have to worry about receiving less money because they met their quota, and they don't think it's a big deal pumping out a sizeable number of idiots in the process. That doesn't tell the whole story, I know, but that's bad enough. Sounds like you were one of the ones who earned his way through public education. But I'd be curious to know how many classmates you remember that might fit the description I just relayed.

-R


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 5):
I'm a product of the Public School System, and I'll damned if I'm un-American there hero.


I second that...I am just like ANC, went through my public elementary, middle, and high schools, and now attend a state university, and I find nothing wrong with my education from the day it began (and yes, I did seriously consider going to private school for my high school years but decided it wasnt for me after visiting a few and seeing private school life first hand)

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17491 posts, RR: 45
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

" I find nothing wrong with my education from the day it began "

If only that were the rule and not the exception...



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1739 times:

The problem with public schools for the most part are the parents and students. The students don't want to learn, and there is nothing the government can do aobut it. It is mostly the fault of the parents who don't give a shit about their kids. I for most of my life went to a public school, and found the education to be good. Teachers at private schools are no better, and the education is not a whole lo better then advanced public school programs. At a public school you can make as little or much out of yourself as you want. You can fail every class or you can take advanced classes and for high school enter the IB progrm and go to any college you want if you do well. The public school excuse is just ridiculous.

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17491 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

" Teachers at private schools are no better,"

This is completely false. Not only are private teachers better on average than public school teachers, they are also usually lower paid.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

They are lower paid, put as a whole, I don't they are any better. What makes you say they are better?

[Edited 2005-02-19 21:46:19]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 9):
The problem with public schools for the most part are the parents and students.


Dead on balls accurate. I've said it before, I'm saying it again. IF some of the parents of the children in the country would take the time to DO THEIR JOB and raise their children, half or more of the issues with today's youth would be nullified, period.

Get the kid out from in front of the X-Box, make them do their homework, spend time with them working that homework. It pays big dividends.

Quoting Allstarflyer (reply 6):
I was told that it's because, in part, that the schools are given a certain amount of money by the government to produce graduates. The more graduates they produce, the more money they get.


Source please. Sounds like bullshit to me, thus, bullshit flag going up.

Quoting Allstarflyer (reply 6):
But I'd be curious to know how many classmates you remember that might fit the description I just relayed.


I don't know of any that failed to qualify to enter the military, you gotta be pretty damn dumb not to qualify for some military jobs. If that's the sole question.

If not, there are perhaps a dozen out of a graduating class in high school of over 500 that are still hanging around and haven't done a thing with themselves. That doesn't reflect poorly on our school, as I said, I'm a product thereof, it reflects poorly on the person. I can't help it - and neither can my school - if Tommy Tentpeg or Jane Wayne has the motivation level of a doorstop.

[Edited 2005-02-19 22:59:40]

User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (reply 0):
"Data from the National Center for Education Statistics indicate that the average private elementary school tuition in America is less than $4,000 and the average private secondary school tuition is around $6,000. Public schools spend far more per student, so states could save money by allowing more children to attend less expensive private schools. "


That is an apples and oranges comparison if I ever saw one. Cost and tuition is not at all the same thing. Most private schools in the US have large endowments or similar sources of income to fund the difference between tuition and actual cost. The private school where I worked for a while charged significantly less tuition ($10k) than the actual cost ($17k). That difference was made up through fund raising efforts and return on the investments in their endowment.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 9):
The problem with public schools for the most part are the parents and students.


The problem is the system, not the people. Sure, public schooling is the largest jobs program for the unemployable in the USA, but there are many excellent teachers in the schools anyway.

The problem is the system and government intervention in every aspect of families' lives.

Quoting 11Bravo (reply 13):
That is an apples and oranges comparison if I ever saw one. Cost and tuition is not at all the same thing. Most private schools in the US have large endowments or similar sources of income to fund the difference between tuition and actual cost.


11Bravo, are you referring to grammar/high schools or universities? Private universities tend to have larger endowments, but I can assure you that private K-12 schools typically don't. Although Catholic and Lutheran schools (Catholics educate 12% of American children) do have their respective churches to draw upon.

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 9):
At a public school you can make as little or much out of yourself as you want.


As little as you want, yes, but as much? ROTFLMAO hell no. See the homeschoolers or those who attend prep schools such as Groton for that.


ANCflyer, you can read all about it right here.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm


User currently offlineJetJock22 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Quoting MD-90 (reply 4):
Public schooling and being indoctrinated by the state is utterly and profoundly un-American.


And yet you attend Mississippi State University? Anyone else see the irony in that?


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting MD-90 (reply 14):
11Bravo, are you referring to grammar/high schools or universities? Private universities tend to have larger endowments, but I can assure you that private K-12 schools typically don't. Although Catholic and Lutheran schools (Catholics educate 12% of American children) do have their respective churches to draw upon.


Yes I was speaking of "grammar/high schools". Perhaps I shouldn't have said "most", but many of them do. The school were I worked, a prep school, had an endowment of about $30M. The school where my Mother worked had an even larger endowment as did the prep school my brother attended. There are three high-end prep schools in the valley where I live in CA and I know from a friend of mine, who is a Director of Development at one of these schools, that this school has a significant endowment. These schools also do lots of fund raising and they rent out facilities during the summer to offset costs.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

As to religiously affiliated private schools, probably you have on average a greater amount of parental support and involvement that seen in public schools. You also have a different style of management, with fewer layers, probably more involved teachers, better disiplined students due to the faith based rules that students have to go along with. These schools often can attract the better students and often better athletes (think of LeBron James). They are less likely vs. public schools to have those students who are 'special needs' or handicapped. Catholic High Schools are often gender seperated and this keep out the immediate gender competition and sexual distractions in the classroom.
There needs to be a complete review of the structure of schools systems - public and private - as the K-12 model is over a century old and tight linking of age to grade level we have set up our educational system into. Except for special needs or mentally handicapped students, our current system of grade level by age a student is limits many students ability to compete and holds down smarter students. We need more flexibility so that students can learn as they are able and not pushed along. Sometimes a student is terrible at math, and others are excellent at history (like I was) and the current lockstep system doesn't deal with the needs of individual students very well.
We have to have so many more classes in areas not even thought of 60 years ago such as sex education, and have eliminated classes in trades (woodworking, metalworking for example).
We have made our basic educational system, with the exception of technical High Schools, designed to prep students only to be placed into college and not into real life non-college trades. Try to find a mechanic for your car or a plumber - kids don't want to go into that much anymore, but in many cases one can make more money than many college education required jobs do.
We put too much emphesis upon interscholastic sports like football and basketball rather than acedemics.
We then create a top to down imposing of levels of acheivement, creating a situation of 'teaching to the test'.
For a number of years in public schools, we have seen rampant PCism on one side distorting important courses like in literature and American history, to excessive influences of the religious right creeping in 'creationism', distorting what students need to know about science, to 'abstence only' sex ed, which is not working.
We have many schools systems burdened with very high costs of special needs education, something almost ignored over 30 years ago. Many districts also are burdened with the higher per student and increasing overall budget amounts of money educating the children of illegal and legal immigrants, who often don't speak English.
We also need to reform our school governance and financing systems. Today in many states, public schools are far too locally micromanaged, that is home rule districts involving only one small community rather than larger regions. Catholic schools are often managed by the regional diocises with much less local control. We also need consistant funding from district to district so they don't have to rely virtually only on locally sourced property or sales taxes. In many cases, businesses go to those locations where the local property taxes are lower, thus no proper distribution of money to where needed more. Also many local and state governments take away income for local school districts by making property and business tax deals with businesses to locate in their communities.
We also must make the parent more involved in their children's eduction in the home, from making their kids do homework, to education in everyday life situations that schools have had to take over, such as managing family finances, dealing with people to community service rather than competitive sports activities or playing for hours on end on the Internet or with video games. TV progams and music must also be more realistic about school aged kids, and not encourage violence, with less explicite sexual content or laughing off of illegal beheavors.
Many public schools are moving over to uniforms or semi-uniform standards of apperance or clothing, to eliminate overly sexual and sloppy clothes. In many urban areas, uniforms have become popular to eliminate support or identity with street youth gangs. We need schools to make school more like going to a job, where their education is their employment.
We also need to reform tenure rules, including total replacement of pension and health care insurance, so that bad teachers can be fired easier, but yet allowing for 'political protection' tenure, to prevent a good teacher from being replaced by someone with connections to school boards.


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 17):
Catholic High Schools are often gender seperated and this keep out the immediate gender competition and sexual distractions in the classroom.


Are you kidding me? Most standard Catholic high schools have been co-ed since the mid 1970s. The only Catholic schools gender specific are the prep schools.

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 17):
We need more flexibility so that students can learn as they are able and not pushed along. Sometimes a student is terrible at math, and others are excellent at history (like I was) and the current lockstep system doesn't deal with the needs of individual students very well.


What do you call the tracking system?

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 17):
Try to find a mechanic for your car or a plumber - kids don't want to go into that much anymore, but in many cases one can make more money than many college education required jobs do.


Maybe they just like the career that required a college degree. Besides, all of the high schools in my area do offer shop classes, ect.

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (reply 9):
Teachers at private schools are no better


I would have to say this is untrue as far as I have seen. Most public school teachers have their bachelors in secondary education. At my prep school, all of my teachers, as far as I know, have their Master's Degrees in their subject matter, except my biology teacher, who has his only his Bachelor's Degree in biology.

AAndrew


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

And yet you attend Mississippi State University? Anyone else see the irony in that?

Can you name ANY universities in the USA that do not receive state money in some form or another? I can think of just one, and it is a Christian school in Florida.

Mississippi State was a lot closer and a lot cheaper than Thomas Aquinas in California.



I say that the system cannot be reformed and should be abolished. There were no public schools back in the early 1800s when Connecticut's adult literacy rate was 98%.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

I suport publick skools!


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

So, tell me MD90, are you going to get your degree, even if you don't earn it, I mean after all, schools only churn out graduates to keep the dollars flowing in right?  Yeah sure

Speaking of public schools, how much Public Money is going toward your education? How much of the great State or Mississippi's tax dollars are funding the education you're getting at this institution that by your own calling should be abolished?


User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Quoting MD-90 (reply 19):
I say that the system cannot be reformed and should be abolished. There were no public schools back in the early 1800s when Connecticut's adult literacy rate was 98%.


Does that include slaves? Big grin
Theres where you are going wrong.


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

ANCflyer -

I completely agree with you about the motivation factor. I've learned that for myself, and there's no other measure by which an individual's success is determined. Good point.

Quoting ANCFlyer (reply 1):
I had to explain to the teacher that it was okay to eat meat and fish and game, and that hunting was a way of life in Alaska (and elsewhere) despite her theories and that she should stick to teaching my daughter the three Rs and I'd worry about her values, ethics and morals. The principal agreed, end of situation.


I applaud that. I don't hear of many parents who so actively involved in the eduaction of their children.

If you're ever heading through DeKalb, IL, my old digs as of a little while ago, let me know and we'll take a jaunt through the Army recruiter's office. For one, they used the same descriptions you offered in your example of getting the kids away from the XBox, and we're disappointed with the quality of education that a lot of kids have who walk through their doors.

Quoting Allstarflyer (reply 6):
I was told that it's because, in part, that the schools are given a certain amount of money by the government to produce graduates.



This was done a few years ago, but it's still relevant: "A new study by the Center on Policy Attitudes (COPA) reveals that the American public is looking to the federal government to play an active, but not punitive, role in strengthening public schools. There is strong support for a federal role in testing, but the majority opposes using such tests as a basis for withholding federal funds from schools that perform poorly." This was taken from this site:

http://www.policyattitudes.org/OnlineReports/Education/edu_brief.html

Schools must be fearing that if placed competitively against each other, some of them might be losing out on some money. So they don't encourage the competition, and the money keeps flowing into all of them, regardless of who is earning or just being handed their H.S. diploma. Why would the majority of the American public, as stated here, want to oppose tests that could possibly prevent schools from receiving funding? Competition among schools would mean that some would win and some would inevitably lose out to others.

"If asked to guess the graduation rate in the nation's public schools, the conventional wisdom would suggest a figure in the neighborhood of 85 percent. . . To take an example from a growing body of studies, research from the Urban Institute suggests that today slightly more than two-thirds of public high school students nationwide receive a diploma (Exhibit 1)." Here's the link:

http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Na...Publication.cfm&PublicationID=8968

This next website states that nearly 83% of people 25 and older are H.S. grads. http://www.epodunk.com/top10/graduation/grad_chart.html

Does that mean, if you're willing to adhere to the info from the previous website, that it takes a good number of people to obtain their H.S. diploma after they're in their 20's? Why couldn't they do that in their high school years?

You may now discard your BS flag.

http://www.newswithviews.com/public_schools/public_schools10.htm

An intelligent young lady from Arkansas and her take on the public school system. Halfway down the page, check her take on spelling, for example. A little further down the page, read her take on kids in public schools being uncontrollable. Good paragraph.

This from a professor at nearby Johns Hopkins: He goes on about postmodernism and philosophical viewpoints, but he's basically decrying the state of our schools.
Here's the link: http://my.execpc.com/~presswis/decon.html

I could go on with additional links, as anyone probably could, also, who appreciates the state of our public school system. But the whole point of this is that there's motivation happening from government or the public school system in producing quality graduates. Unless these kids are self-motivated or some other influence - parents, etc. - is helping, then high school kids have little helping them in succeed in high school. I know parents are responsible to get their kids motivated to be successful, but, outside good individual teachers, it seems like high schools are just happy to get their government money and are happy to pump the grads out to keep getting that money.

-R


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (reply 23):
But the whole point of this is that there's motivation happening from government or the public school system in producing quality graduates.


That's supposed to read - there's little motivation happening in government or the public school system in producing quality graduates.

And by the way, it's not like there's a whole lot of indifference going on here. There are lots of dedicated teachers out there and people in government, too, I'm know, who pour their lives into ensuring that our younger generation is properly educated. It just looks to me like some in positions of power are content on the number of results (in this case, the number of graduates) more than being concerned with the quality of results.

-R


25 Allstarflyer : Glad to have made my post after you did, ANC, like you were anticipating someone to come out and say that. Of course, like I mentioned in my last pos
26 MD-90 : K-12 state schools ought to be abolished. I was not referring to the universities, which pre-date state schooling, although they would be a lot bette
27 MaverickM11 : " IF some of the parents of the children in the country would take the time to DO THEIR JOB and raise their children, half or more of the issues with
28 ANCFlyer : Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree with you Mav. What ever problems kids have today, I believe it starts at home and then is perpetuated at the schoo
29 Cory6188 : I don't think it's fair to make a sweeping generalization about the state of the nation's public schools. I live in Bergen County, NJ (a wealthy subur
30 Seb146 : Well, let's discuss Oregon public schools. The school board just decided to close some elementary and middle schools in the Portland area thus increas
31 MD-90 : An experience that only 0.00001% of public high schoolers share. Half of Alabama's tax dollars go towards public education.
32 Lehpron : I see the current public school system, as it was when I was young, as babysitting. Only those who were gifted or blessed with good families got to go
33 MaverickM11 : " Parents are not the save all, fix all, but they could do a hell of a lot more." Until we can legislate good parenting, which I believe to be nearly
34 ANCFlyer : Absolutely. So damn worried about being politically correct and hurting someones feelings we are doing them no good. Tendency to look the other way w
35 Seb146 : I can see your point, but I grew up poor. Near poverty level for all of my education. I had the chance to attend Warner Pacific College, a private Ch
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