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Should The UK Leave The EU?  
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Just wanted to know what your thoughts on this are, what the Pro's and Con's on this are and should the UK indulge into a better relationship with the USA.


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

of course they could leave the EU to have a better relationship with the USA, but a much lesser relationship to the "KEY MARKET" Europe. They are not paying so much as other countrys, so why they should leave...


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Gkirk, do you see a context between "leaving EU" and "better relationship with the USA"? or is it just 2 threats into one?

I think GB has best relationship with the USA - GWB would have had contact with the people in that country without getting "shocked" by people who are demonstrating against him. In Mainz he was little scared having direct contact to the "civilians".

I think that every country that is member of the EU thought about it very long time and the only "country" that left the EU is Greenland.



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

My thoughts about the EU is that is should just be a free trade area and not a political forum where powers are traded between the member nations and taken further away from the people of these countries.

I think that it's a scandal that role of the EU in Britain has not been put to the people in a referendum, successive governments have given more power to the EU over the British people which to me is undemocratic, power should be brought closer to the people rather than taken further away from us.

We can be close friends with both Europe and the US but neither should wield any power over us, that should be left in the hands of the British people and it's elected government.



British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2398 times:

What f*cking powers are being taken away from the member countries? After all, all got members in the EU parliament and the commision. It is rather the other way around that a few countries are using the veto rights to blackmail the others by connecting items which are not on the agenda.

Jan


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11953 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Way to start a thread guaranteed to pass 500 post GKirk...  Big grin

I think they should... but I'm from Norway. We're not even in the EU. (And doing really well btw... ) Big grin

Thom@s

[Edited 2005-02-25 14:48:29]


"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

As long as you have your oil....

Jan


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

problem of the EU is that the complete storry is not fair for every country... some countrys only receives money and the others only pays pays and pays.

cheers



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Short answer - No. The UK, contrary to what Rupert Murdoch would have you believe, does actually benefit from membership of the EU.

User currently offlineReady4Pushback From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

I used to think that the EU was a really good thing, and that we should throw everything we had into it, and I think there was a time in the past when we should have done that.

The problem is that the British (at last the English) are very conservative (I mean, even the liberals of us are more conservative than most other country's liberals), and conservatives tend to do things slower, they need time to adapt - no radical change. So, UK government after UK government have missed all sort of oppertunities to get into the EU and really make a difference on bahalf of the UK. A lot of people here think that the EU is about the French and the Germans spreading their power over Europe, gradually taking over (not my opinion, by the way).

An example of this is the issue of the Euro. I think that Britian should had joined when it first came out - it's should have been one of the inital countries, with France, etc.. We should have been in there first making the Euro a currency that works for Britian as well as the rest of Europe, but now the Euro will never be a currency for Britain. It will always be the European currency made for the first few to join that we may adopt, and if we are going to, we are going to have to make some changes to the way we do things with money (for example, the way we mortgage our homes).

If Britain is going to be in the EU, it needs to do it actively - be in there making it right for us, or we need to think about leaving. It will be interesting to see which other countries call for Britain to leave if everyone else accepts the new constitution and Britain rejects it.

The point I'm trying to make though is that the British are too slow at adopting change, and embracing the changes needed for the future. The world moves on and makes these changes and we don't. A very good example of this, IMO, is a topic that is currently being discussed in the Aviation forum about the new runway at LHR and how it will take 3 centuries for us to sort out the legal crap before it goes ahead. It's the same with the EU - Europeans are able to look to the future and think about it. Britain is too conservative (with a small 'c').


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting Ready4Pushback (reply 9):
So, UK government after UK government have missed all sort of oppertunities to get into the EU and really make a difference on bahalf of the UK.


Very true. UK should have been in there shaping EU policy they way they wanted, or not got involved at all - this way we do ourselves no good at all. France and Germany have shaped the EU in the way they desired, Britain should have been doing the same.

The thing is that much as we are not always popular with our neighbours, France and Germany most definitely don't want us to pull out if the EU - we are too valuable as one of th ebiggest net contributors to the EU budget.

Also despite France and Germany working closely together in the EU, neither has ever truly trusted the other. France wants Britain there to counterbalance German domination (the Germany fear long being a problem mindset in French foreign policy, and is stil lthere to some extent). Likewise Germany likes Britain there to stop an imbalance of mediterranean nations - which France sometimes falls into.

So even if we wante dto leave the EU, there would be a lot of diplomatic efforts from other countries to try and ensure we don't.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineDiesel1 From UK - Wales, joined Mar 2001, 1638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Some interesting contribution to this thread explaining the case for staying in the EU - still I'm sure the Eurosceptics will be along soon propagating their untruths and misleading stories about all thing 'european'.

In answer to your questions GKirk - 'No' the UK should not leave the EU, and 'No' the UK should not 'indulge' in a closer relationship with the USA.


Quoting Gman94 (reply 3):
I think that it's a scandal that role of the EU in Britain has not been put to the people in a referendum, successive governments have given more power to the EU over the British people which to me is undemocratic, power should be brought closer to the people rather than taken further away from us.


Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.



I don't like signatures...
User currently offlineOrion737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Lets wait and see what the Britih public think on the EU constitution, thats if Blair ever dares to call it!

User currently offlineUssherd From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

The problem is that the British (at last the English) are very conservative

Herein lies one of the most positive aspects of UK membership in the EU. Socially, the EU stance on human rights has had a very definite positive impact on a range of issues, particularly the treatment of minorities. A case in point – a large majority of the population in Northern Ireland opposed the introduction of the Civil Partnership legislation to N Ireland (this isn’t the most gay-friendly of places). However, London insisted that N Ireland couldn’t be excluded, because such a move would contravene the EU stance on human rights. Certainly, the EU as a system needs to become more accountable, and it’s present structure is too centralist… but that’s something that (I believe) will change over time. The fact that the EU legislators are somewhat removed from the general population can present problems. However, it can also be an advantage: no UK party would dare to state as a matter of policy that gay couples should be allowed to marry and adopt, for fear of an electoral backlash. However, the EU has stated just that, being free to do “the right thing” despite the entrenched bigotry of certain segments of the population at large.

Personally, I think the British have to get over the idea that they’re somehow uniquely different from continental Europe. Are the British more different from the French, than the Greeks from the Germans? I don’t think so. I don’t see the EU as a usurper of national sovereignty (and don’t give a damn about that, in any case). It should be particularly easy for a citizen of the UK to understand the concept of layers of authority and layers of loyalty to a particular “nation”. After all, we are – first: English, Scottish, Northern Irish or Welsh – then British – then European.

The fact that individual countries belong to something larger than themselves is, to me, a good thing. Hopefully it will allow people to look beyond their immediate surroundings… and there’s a comfort in knowing that, no matter what the quirks, beliefs, customs and prejudices of any particular region of the EU might be, we all belong to something much greater than our individual region or country; a bigger entity where those very beliefs, customs and prejudices are diluted to a level where they can no longer be unjustly imposed on those who don’t share them.



Cada loco con su tema...
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2326 times:
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There is no middle ground, no grey area as far as the EU is concerned. You're either in and become an active member while complying with all the rules and regulations. You do what "Brussels" tells you to do. Or you can go your own way, and i am not entirely in favour of Britain leaving the EU. However the next two years will define which way the UK heads when government gives us a referendum on the constitution. If the British public were to say 'No' (highly likely) then i would seriously question whether it would be worth it for Britain to remain a peripheral member. There is no point in being part of a union if your electorate are completely hostile towards it, Britain would also be under pressure from heavyweights like France and Germany to leave. The only other way i can think of is to be like Switzerland, a "associate member" with only a free trade agreement with the EU, but that is way off.


In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 2):
I think that every country that is member of the EU thought about it very long time and the only "country" that left the EU is Greenland.


...but only after having the EEC pay for the refurbishment of one of their airports, I believe Illulissat.
And I am sure that they are kicking themselves now, because they could use the EU cash.


Quoting Gkirk (reply 0):
Just wanted to know what your thoughts on this are, what the Pro's and Con's on this are and should the UK indulge into a better relationship with the USA.


Well maybe you should start learning about the EU before raising questions of Britain leaving it. As you have proven in a recent Ryanair thread, you don't even know how many and which countries are in it.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

I was unsure about Cyprus, thats all...


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineReady4Pushback From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting Ussherd (reply 13):

I totally agree with what you say - you said it much better than I could!

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (reply 14):
If the British public were to say 'No'

..if this was the case then I think I wouldn't want to be here. I really think that, for Europe's sake, Britain should leave, and let Europe forge ahead and make something good of the EU. If Britain says No, they are holding the EU back, and they should not be allowed to do that.

Quoting Diesel1 (reply 11):
Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.

An example is the human rights issue. Britain's Armed Forces didn't allow gays in, until the EU had something to say about it, and they had to change. Now I agree with EU completely, but some people in Britain see this as the EU intruding into our sovereignty. I think Gman94 is wrong to say that it is less democratic though - we do have EU elections over here, just not many people bother to vote or take it seriously.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting Gkirk (reply 16):
I was unsure about Cyprus, thats all...


Even Cyprus is unsure - half of it is in the EU and half of it is out !!



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 4):
What f*cking powers are being taken away from the member countries? After all, all got members in the EU parliament and the commision. It is rather the other way around that a few countries are using the veto rights to blackmail the others by connecting items which are not on the agenda.




Quoting Diesel1 (reply 11):
Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.


Oh I take it organisations such as the European Parliament and the European Commission are powerless bodies and can be disbanded for the waste of European tax payers money that they are. Therefore we also have no need for the European Constitution and can put to good use and recycle it as toilet paper.

I also wondered when the silly insults about tabloid huggers would come out. I forgot people who are against the EU are uneducated, backward thinking neanderthals, who are slaves to Rupert Murdoch. and not just people who want to be governed by the British government who we elect and nobody else.

It's a simple question really who do you want to be governed by?

Why are we being forced into the EU? If it's a powerless organisation then it's pointless and we have no need to be in it.

If the EU is a organisation that does have power over us then I don't want to us to be in it. I want deceicions affecting me taken by my government in the interest of Britain.



British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting Cornish (reply 18):
Even Cyprus is unsure - half of it is in the EU and half of it is out !!


Not true - the whole of the island of Cyprus is in the EU - half of it happens to be occupied by Turkey, but the EU does not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus (nobody except Turkey does).


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 20):
Not true - the whole of the island of Cyprus is in the EU - half of it happens to be occupied by Turkey, but the EU does not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus (nobody except Turkey does).


Actually I knew that (have spent much time on the island). Was getting at the fact that half the island doesn't get to enjoy the benefits of EU membership, even if technically they are in. The Cyprus problem has long been a headache with EU entry.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Hey, is it that time again...? Oh, yes, it isBig grin
(It´s been a year ago... 1823 posts to beat.  Wink/being sarcastic)


Gman94: If the EU is a organisation that does have power over us then I don't want to us to be in it.

The thing that baffles me the most about the british europhobes is their utter refusal to even consider the fact that Britain is one of the controlling partners in The EU - just like everybody else.

So unless the british government in the respective EU organisations and the british members of the European Parliament are just sleeping, "the EU" is just as much british as it is french, german, spanish, greek, polish, ...

Simplification is at the base of every prejudice, and this one is no different.  Insane


Gman94: I want deceicions affecting me taken by my government in the interest of Britain.

And where, specifically, could Britain actually achieve more without the EU? You should have learned by now that appeasement to US interests is entirely inconsequential to actual US policy - British interests were simply ignored when Bush slapped tarriffs on steel imports; It took a massive response by the EU to put things right again.

Just don´t delude yourself!  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

I really am exasperated and disillusioned at times by people who are pro EU. If you show dissent against the grand European project then you are belittled and ridiculed it really does annoy me. Can anyone actually tell me why the sky will fall in if Britain or any other country is not in the EU, there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world that are not in the EU are going to be up sh*t creek without a paddle because they are not part of this organisation that will cure all the worlds problems?


British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting Gman94 (reply 23):
Can anyone actually tell me why the sky will fall in if Britain or any other country is not in the EU, there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world that are not in the EU are going to be up sh*t creek without a paddle because they are not part of this organisation that will cure all the worlds problems?


Hmmmmmmm, maybe it's because ALL of Britain's neighbors, with the exception of Norway are in it and there are no trade barriers between the countries anymore. But if you want the "great British industry" to try to compete in Europe, the place where most British goods are sold and where Britain gets most imports from, in an environment that puts a huge tax burden on British products, you will have a lot of problems.
I have, maybe through living on the Continent, come to the conclusion that moving forward is better than thinking that the Empire still exists and thinking that Britannia rules anything.
And if you think sucking up to the US is better than being on good terms with neighbors that acutally want to make the environment you live in or next to better, then you must be either blind or dumb and at best very naive.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
25 Gkirk : Sorry Klaus, Germany and France are the controlling partners.
26 Post contains links Klaus : Gman94: I really am exasperated and disillusioned at times by people who are pro EU. If you show dissent against the grand European project then you a
27 Gman94 : There you go again cheap insults. I am not living in the past, I do not pine for the days of the Empire when Britannia ruled the wave and do not beli
28 Gman94 : For god's sake it was meant to prove a point not be a factually correct statement, 300 or 191 the point still stands.
29 JGPH1A : In order for the EU to become a federal superstate, all the member governments would have to agree to that. Since NOBODY wants that, or has ever stat
30 Ready4Pushback : I totally agree, but I think that it's partly our government's fault. Britain should have partnered up with someone like Spain or the Netherlands. An
31 Post contains images Thom@s : Yep, and that should last at least a good 50 years, so we'll talk then... Thom@s
32 Gman94 : ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!! When will you get in to your thick minds that just because I am against the EU it does not mean I have been brainwashed by that twa
33 Klaus : Gkirk: Sorry Klaus, Germany and France are the controlling partners. If you feel your EU delegations and your MEPs are ineffective, why are you still
34 JGPH1A : I'm glad to hear it ! So where did you get the Federal Superstate notion from ? I have never heard it proposed by any serious politician.
35 GDB : All this stuff about referendums is so lame, we are a Parliamentary Democracy, we shouldn't have referendums, until such changes are made to our syste
36 B747forlife : I've noticed that no one has mentioned a main reason why the UK might not have the EU influence as Germany and France. It is because France (in partic
37 Gman94 : So what is the ultimate goal of the European Union then, look at the facts and the way the EU is going, no politician has said that is their intent b
38 Travelin man : I love how this initial question had to add the US in at the end as flame-bait. As if having a close relationship with the US and being in the EU is a
39 Ushermittwoch : Well the British government has taken action in its own interest. Take Iraq as the prime example of recent times. The "evil powers" France ander Germ
40 JGPH1A : The aim to me seems to be a closer union of sovereign states with common standards of human rights, a common trading area, freedom of movement of goo
41 Gkirk : Believe me, it wasn't intended that way, but too late to change it now...
42 Ushermittwoch : Wow! The biggest heap of crap I have read all day. Where have you learned of this French domination? Sean Hannity's website? Cry me a river. If the B
43 Travelin man : Judging by the snide comments regarding the US, that's how it was taken. That's OK, though. The EU stands for moral principles like selling arms to Ch
44 Ushermittwoch : Well, since the US is also a major trading partner, I don't see where that is immoral. If you talk about human rights violations in China, look in the
45 Travelin man : Heh. Flame bait works every time.
46 Ushermittwoch : If you consider your posts as such, yes.
47 Gman94 : We don't need to go anywhere we can stand on our own two feet, we don't need to pick sides one way or the other we can be allies with both but de not
48 GDB : Travelin man is correct, CDG did veto UK membership all through the 60's, the bitter, ungrateful old git that he was. He was totally paranoid about im
49 Ready4Pushback : I'm not entirely sure what the age of the state has to do with it? Anyway - there does seem to be quite a lot of anti-British feeling amongst the Fren
50 Mham001 : USHERMITTWOCH carped: Wow! The biggest heap of crap I have read all day. Where have you learned of this French domination? Sean Hannity's website? So
51 NoUFO : The UK should definitely stay. I could not think of more than two British newspapers that could survive without reports on why the UK should leave the
52 WhiteHatter : FWIW, I'm quite happy being a British European. The EU does Britain a lot of good, and I'd rather we were part of the decision making process than bei
53 B747forlife : Ha, I hope you don't consider yourself a coherent debator. Nothing I said was untrue. Looking at the EU, one can see a lot of France in it. And yes,
54 LAS757300 : Yes, because, as DeGaulle said, Europe extends from the Russian border to the English Channel.
55 JGPH1A : Surely a common currency is a logical progression for a free trade area. Doesn't a common currency make free trade easier and more transparent ? Do n
56 Post contains images Banco : A common currency might be, a single currency isn't. A single currency has to be the precursor (ideally it should be at the same time) for some form
57 Post contains images Diesel1 : Banco You're a bit late joining in this thread... Or have you been trying to hold back and have finally succumbed? Or perhaps in some form of shock af
58 Post contains images Banco : You've got me there, Diesel. I've tried to stay out of it as long as possible on the grounds that I've said all this before and no-one listened then,
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