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Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon  
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Posted (9 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

The Mayor of London, Mr Ken Livingston, today launched a critique of Israel published in The Guardian (a well respected British newspaper).


The following extract makes interesting read:

...Relations with the board (Greater London Council) took a dramatic turn for the worse when I opposed Israel's illegal invasion of Lebanon, culminating in the massacres at the Palestinian camps of Sabra and Shatila. The board also opposed my involvement in the successful campaign in 1982 to convince the Labour party to recognise the PLO as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people.

The fundamental issue on which we differ, as Henry Grunwald (president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews) knows, is not anti-semitism - which my administration has fought tooth and nail - but the policies of successive Israeli governments.

To avoid manufactured misunderstandings, the policies of Israeli governments are not analogous to Nazism. They do not aim at the systematic extermination of the Palestinian people, in the way Nazism sought the annihilation of the Jews.

Israel's expansion has included ethnic cleansing. Palestinians who had lived in that land for centuries were driven out by systematic violence and terror aimed at ethnically cleansing what became a large part of the Israeli state. The methods of groups like the Irgun and the Stern gang were the same as those of the Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic: to drive out people by terror.

Today the Israeli government continues seizures of Palestinian land for settlements, military incursions into surrounding countries and denial of the right of Palestinians expelled by terror to return. Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, is a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office. Israel's own Kahan commission found that Sharon shared responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

Sharon continues to organise terror. More than three times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed in the present conflict. There are more than 7,000 Palestinians in Israel's jails.

To obscure these truths, those around Israel's present government have resorted to demonisation. Initial targets were Palestinians, and have now become Muslims. Take the Middle East Media Research Institute, run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, which poses as a source of objective information but in reality selectively translates material from Arabic and presents Muslims and Arabs in the worst possible light.

Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe, implying that the most serious upsurge of hatred and discrimination is against Jews.

All racist and anti-semitic attacks must be stamped out. However, the reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims - and they are the primary targets of the extreme right. For 20 years Israeli governments have attempted to portray anyone who forcefully criticises the policies of Israel as anti-semitic. The truth is the opposite: the same universal human values that recognise the Holocaust as the greatest racist crime of the 20th century require condemnation of the policies of successive Israeli governments - not on the absurd grounds that they are Nazi or equivalent to the Holocaust, but because ethnic cleansing, discrimination and terror are immoral.

They are also fuelling anger and violence across the world. For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners.

-Ken Livingstone is the London mayor



You can read the whole article here titled "This is about Israel, not anti-semitism":
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/c...t/0,9236,1430185,00.html?gusrc=rss



Horus

[Edited 2005-03-04 21:17:17]


EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Since when has The Guardian been well respected?

User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting N5176Y (reply 1):
Since when has The Guardian been well respected?


http://www.onlinepublishingnews.com/htm/n20030312.235546.htm

"The January data shows that the Guardian and the ABC are well-respected sources of information not just for local or national news but also for global news. Both the Guardian and the ABC are the top news domain in their home countries as well as being global destinations. Their audience numbers are impressive even when compared to well-known global news sources like CNN, which drew 95 per cent of its audience from the Americas in January, and the BBC, which drew 68 per cent of its audience from Europe and 29 per cent of its audience from the Americas that month."


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5741 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Since when should we care what this clown thinks??? They don't call him Red Ken for no reason.

[Edited 2005-03-04 21:20:03]

User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

L410Turbolet, his last comment sums it all up...

"For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners."

Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

Nice article Horus. Thanks for sharing.


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting Horus (reply 4):

"For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners."


Yeah I'm sure Sharon cares about what the mayor of London is thinking. This article will have a big impact on the security of London and of course of the Middle East sarcastic 

L410Turbolet:
You hit the nail on the head.

pelican


User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Does anyone, other than Londoners, actually give a sh*t what this chump says?


'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

BA, no problem

Yukimizake, Pelican, no matter what your views are about the guy he raises very valid points and issues regarding this on-going conflict and he highlights Israeli terrorism which is usually, if not always, brushed aside.

Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineDamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

Pelican - no matter if Sharon cares or not ...

If people start speaking up and questioning Israel's policies - then these said policies may change in the future ... but as long as the world just watches silently - Israel has the carte blanche to do what it pleases.

Actually, from my viewpoint the situation is improving ... And Israel stopped the peace process because of the suicide attack in Tel Aviv that killed 4 and injured 50 people ... from Febuary 1st, 2005, at least according to my information, 15 Palestinians (6 in Gaza, 3 in Nablus, 2 in Ramallah and 1 each in Jenin, Tulkarem, Qalqilia and Hebron) were killed and 52 were injured by the IDF - but who keeps counting - right? But I didn't hear Abbas stop the peace process.

Israel needs to change it's ways. I know. Flame me now. But I'll stand to what I said.

D.


User currently offlineDamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

One more thing that's been bugging me ....

Regarding the security fence currently built by Israel ... the improved version will now take away only 4% of Palestinian lands ... why doesn't Israel build the fence on their own soil and lose some of their soil if they want the fence built? Why do they have to perform more landgrab?

D.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

Regarding the security fence currently built by Israel ... the improved version will now take away only 4% of Palestinian lands ... why doesn't Israel build the fence on their own soil and lose some of their soil if they want the fence built? Why do they have to perform more landgrab?

It's all demographics. The new plan for the security fence takes about 5% of the West bank--In that 5% are 80% of the Jewish settlers living in the West Bank, and just 1% of the Palestinian West Bank population. So on the Palestinian side of the security fence are 99% of the Palestinian West Bank population, and about 20% of the Jewish settlers who will eventually/hopefully leave.

Does that sound so bad Damirc?


User currently offlineDamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

Yes, RJ - it does.

I want to build a house and you're my neighbour ... now since I want a round wall, I don't have enough space on my property I'll just claim some of yours ... does that sound fair?

And as far as I'm aware these settlers are there illegally. So it is in fact landgrab.

D.


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1956 times:

The New York Times mentioned that the Israeli ambassador to the UK said that he was trying to distract attention from growing disapproval over his own job.


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.

That would be much more interesting to read than the tiresome selective one-sided postings by people with their own private vendettas.

When the anti-Israeli types start thinking about what's good about Israel, and the Israel-can-do-no-wrong brigade starts admitting that their favourite little country isn't exactly a shining example of how to behave, then we might start getting somewhere. :-/


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


I assume that comment was directed at me and if so let me just make a few points to clear up a few matters; first of all when you say, "the Arab members" let me remind you that I'm only 'half' an Arab and I'm also half English so stereotyping people into 'us' and 'them' doesn't work. Second if the Mayor of London, who is not in anyway effected by the Middle East situation speaks out against an injustice then he must be making a valid and important point and if you wish to ignore it then that's upto you but you can't stop others from highlighting it. Thirdly you say that Arab members should contribute with "positive things about Israel"...have you heard the expression 'give credit, where credit is due', just days after the peace summit in Sharm El Sheikh Israel continued killing Palestinians day after day and Palestinians kept their side of the bargain till the death toll reached 17 (including children), yet the world did not voice any criticism of Israel yet when the Palestinians retaliated with the bombing in Tel Aviv all hell broke loose. Fourthly I am all for peace in this region and its dragged on for way too long, but at the same time it has to be a fair and just peace deal settlement and not one that leaves one side with less than their fair and rightful share.


Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
one-sided postings by people with their own private vendettas.


So Ken Livingston has a vendetta against Israel? I don't think so. What is being done here is that certain aspects of this conflict are being raised that tend to be omitted or ignored.


Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
When the anti-Israeli types start thinking about what's good about Israel, and the Israel-can-do-no-wrong brigade starts admitting that their favourite little country isn't exactly a shining example of how to behave, then we might start getting somewhere.


I agree with you 100% because after all even though there are 2 sides to every story, there is only ever one truth.


Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Quoting RJpieces (reply 11):
It's all demographics. The new plan for the security fence takes about 5% of the West bank--In that 5% are 80% of the Jewish settlers living in the West Bank, and just 1% of the Palestinian West Bank population. So on the Palestinian side of the security fence are 99% of the Palestinian West Bank population, and about 20% of the Jewish settlers who will eventually/hopefully leave.


Yes it sounds bad - the settlers aren't supposed to be there in the first place, so it is still stealing Palestinian land.

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


What nice sweet things do you want me to say about the people responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of my people and the ones occupying my country?


User currently offlineEdka From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 1854 times:

Quoting Horus (reply 15):
let me remind you that I'm only 'half' an Arab and I'm also half English so stereotyping people into 'us' and 'them' doesn't work.

and we supposed to know that how??? i don't think Backfire was stereotyping anyone, my guess is that he was only refering to the flag that yuo have selected on your profile, last time i checked, Egypt was an Arab country...


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting Edka (reply 17):
and we supposed to know that how??? i don't think Backfire was stereotyping anyone, my guess is that he was only refering to the flag that yuo have selected on your profile, last time i checked, Egypt was an Arab country...


Well if he looked at my profile he would have found out, besides that's still no excuse to pass judgement against an entire people/race based on stereotypical views and last time I checked that was unacceptable. And I agree I doubt Backfire meant anything sinister from what he said but he should take care how he words his arguments.

Horus



EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


Not only that, but I think that some of the pro-Arab members should also point out the bad things in their countries (some Middle Eastern countries have human rights records that make the Israeli record look absolutely gleaming) and that the pro-Israel members need to complement the Arab countries (they invented Algebra and digits, after all).

And is it just me, or have some Arab and pro-Israel members, up to this point, refuse to even hear the smallest criticism of their countries. For example, I said a couple of months ago that I thought that Lebanon was being beaten around by Syria (now look!) and one Lebanese member went into this passionate defense, but it was totally useless.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting Horus (reply 18):
Well if he looked at my profile he would have found out, besides that's still no excuse to pass judgement against an entire people/race based on stereotypical views and last time I checked that was unacceptable. And I agree I doubt Backfire meant anything sinister from what he said but he should take care how he words his arguments.


Backfire probably meant pro-Arab, not Arab.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

About the article... well, what kind of balanced opinion is this if he doesn't mention a peep about the over a thousand Israeli dead in the last four years? He mentions all the Israeli wrongdoing, but hasn't mentioned nearly four decades of terrorism by the Palestinians against the Israelis started by Arafat in 1964. He digs back until 1948 to harp on Israel's wrongdoings (no nation is perfect) but makes no mention whatsoever of Palestinian crimes against Israel. For that reason I cannot take him seriously, and nobody should.


NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

I will take this one step further. Its is precisely this one sided criticism of Israel, digging back for 60 years for the criticism, that I consider anti-semitism. Israel is the Jewish state, and when you criticism its actions for its sixty years of existence without a mention of the opposition and terrorism its had to face, that is borderline anti-semitism.

How can he expect to be taken seriously? Israel has been no angel in the last sixty years, but to make it out to be the sole instigator behind the conflict is foolish, counter productive, and anti-semitic (since Israel is the only Jewish nation in the world).



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1750 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (reply 19):
Not only that, but I think that some of the pro-Arab members should also point out the bad things in their countries (some Middle Eastern countries have human rights records that make the Israeli record look absolutely gleaming) and that the pro-Israel members need to complement the Arab countries (they invented Algebra and digits, after all).


CXA, most of the Arab/Pro-Arab members here, including myself, regularly point out that the Arab world really needs to change, and we do not deny that we have problems - and many of them are pretty big.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
About the article... well, what kind of balanced opinion is this if he doesn't mention a peep about the over a thousand Israeli dead in the last four years?


Most are military first of all - compare that to the Palestinian casualties, which are largley civilian. Also, thosaunds more Palestinians than Israelis died, I will research the figures, but there are much more than a thousand dead civilians.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
He mentions all the Israeli wrongdoing, but hasn't mentioned nearly four decades of terrorism by the Palestinians against the Israelis started by Arafat in 1964.


Which came as a result of Israel terrorizing the Palestinians. You try living the way the Palestinians lived, and still do, and then tell me if you wouldn't resort to these kind of things. I am not saying it is right, I am saying that I cannot blame them because they suffered a lot, thanks to Israel.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
He digs back until 1948 to harp on Israel's wrongdoings (no nation is perfect) but makes no mention whatsoever of Palestinian crimes against Israel.


Which are nothing compared to what Israel has done to us. "Wrongdoing" to decribe 1948 is the biggest understatement I have ever heard - massacering, looting, ethnic cleansing - the works.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
I will take this one step further. Its is precisely this one sided criticism of Israel, digging back for 60 years for the criticism, that I consider anti-semitism.


Yipee, here we go with the "he criticized Israel so he is anti-semetic" argument. Never heard that one before  Yeah sure.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
Israel is the Jewish state, and when you criticism its actions for its sixty years of existence without a mention of the opposition and terrorism its had to face, that is borderline anti-semitism.


No it isn't, he is criticizing Israel as a state. This is not even borderline anti-semetic - Israel has made a lot of mistakes, and everytime they are criticized, the anti-semetism card flies up. He is right, you know:

Quote:
Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe,[quote]

That is very true, and posts like yours prove this.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
Israel has been no angel in the last sixty years, but to make it out to be the sole instigator behind the conflict is foolish


No it isn't - THEY immigrated to Palestine, THEY ethnically cleansed the land, and thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict.

[quote=Tbar220,reply=22](since Israel is the only Jewish nation in the world).


So what if they are the only Jewish nation in the world? This has nothing to do with religion, this is about the wrong-doings of a state, and just because they happen to be the only state representing the Jews does not give them a "get out of jail free" card.


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

I'm not going to argue with you about history. What I'm questioning is this man's credibility, because he has an entire article devoted to Israel's wrongdoings, while he doesn't mention a word about Palestinian wrongdoings. Neither side is perfect, but to go and blame Israel for all the stuff that's happening is just plain irresponsible and is borderline anti-semitic. It reeks of ignorance and hate, how can an educated person ignore the deaths of so many Israelis? I know more Palestinian's have died, but that's not the point. The point is that he ignored, completely ignored, not a word, the Israeli dead.

Why I should take his article seriously? Tell me why its not anti-semitic. There's criticising Israel with equal criticism of the Palestinians, and there's one-sided criticism of Israel for the current crisis, and blaming them for all the problems of the last half century in the middle east.



NO URLS in signature
25 EDKA : QR332, if you look at the research and the number of Israelis killed in the past 4 years - the majority ARE civilians that were killed by the suicide
26 Horus : Well that is the issue at hand, which the Mayor refers to several times The Mayor is highlighting one side of the conflict which is hardly ever expos
27 QR332 : Because Anti-Israeli and Anti-Semetic are two entirley different things. You could argue the man is being anti-Israeli, but even if he was Anti-Israe
28 CXA330300 : Unfortunately, some of the members aren't like that. I'm not naming names. It is both sides. While the Israelis did confiscate some Palestinian lands
29 Post contains images Tbar220 : Well shit dude, I'm glad I know this. I didn't know it was this simple, I'm glad you clarified it for me. If only all conflicts were as one sided as
30 Post contains links and images QR332 : "some"? This is what the land ownership in Palestine looked like in 1945: Majority is Arab, as you can see. The map below is too large to post, but c
31 Tbar220 : Well I guess I'm going to have to disagree with you. Your kind of thought, that it is purely Israel's fault, is destructive. No conflict is one sided,
32 QR332 : I never said they have no fault, don't put words into my mouth. I said they have no fault in starting the conflict - that is very different from them
33 Tbar220 : So what's this then? These aren't your words? You're saying that Jews are responsible for this "whole conflict". In other words, the Jews actions in
34 QR332 : No shit! What I am putting the blame on Israel for is starting this conflict, I am not saying they are the only ones making mistakes. But, the fact i
35 Tbar220 : That's all I wanted to hear. Thank you and have a good day.
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