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Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?  
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Original article
http://thewandererpress.com/a10-28-2004.htm

Pictures: WARNING! These are EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND DISTURBING!
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html



If this is an urban legend or some kind of hoax, I haven't been able to figure it out. If these types of birth defects are caused by using depleted uranium ammunition, then surely we must stop using it and safely destroy existing stocks.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeskPilot From Australia, joined Apr 2004, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

If it's true, then it's a crime. All children are innocent and don't deserve this.


By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

I'm highly skeptical on everything I read on the internet.

Here's a legitimate site: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Agreed, Skeptisim is high.

I think I saw at one double that was not identified as being from the same child on that second link.

As far as Gulf War Syndrome, I think it has been pretty well established that it was a mix of cocktails from the nerve agent medicines that where given our troops, including experimental ones that are to blame.

The pentagon denies this of course, but it still makes me glad I got out before that whole Clinton era blow-up over anthrax intections to personel.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1682 times:

I'm especially skeptical when you see the amateur type of webpage that it is. It would be sad if someone put up those pictures just to shock and titillate.

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1679 times:

Well, I'm no nuclear scientist, and I've been handling DU rounds for - well, literally most of my adult life. I have never, ever, seen evidence - personally - that the DU rounds have caused any problems.

I haven't got any friends that have witnessed any issues with DU rounds.

I'm not going to deny it because I haven't read up on it or done any research on it.

The extent of my research is to the extent that I know the damn things are pretty flippin' effective in combat. I don't need to be a nuclear scientist to figure that out - I've witnessed it first hand. Matter of fact, if had to go back to combat, I'd have nothing but DUAPFSDS-T loaded on my tank. Nothing better for that 120mm cannon.

I agree with L-188 on the Gulf War Syndrome . . . all the anti-toxins, and exposure to nerve agent, and other contributing factors caused a lot of problems in some of our troops. Unfortunately, there are some that still think otherwise, but I'm sure - just like agent orange - in 20 or 30 years, it will come out of the 5 sided funny farm that it is fact.

My congratulations MD-90 . . . a post worth working with! Well done.  Big grin


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1670 times:

I would tend to believe the WHO report on this issue versus the "Catholic Press" version represented by The Wanderer Press. It just further proves the point that numbers and facts can be manipulated to bolster whatever opinion you are supporting/trying to destroy.

DU rounds do the job they were intended to do - stop the enemy by cutting through their armor.

MxCtrlr  Silly
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  cool 



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1668 times:

Depleted Uranium (DU) is no more harmful than any other heavy metal such as lead. Natural uranium is composed primarily of three isotopes, two that are radioactive and one that isn't. Uranium 233 & 235 are radioactive but comprise around 2% of all naturally occurring uranium. The other 98% is uranium 238 who does not produce dangerous radiation. Once the radioactive isotopes (U-233 & U-235) have been removed for use in nuclear power plants, research, medical applications, and,although not at this time, nuclear weapons, what remains is the non-fissionable U-238 or what is commonly referred to as depleted uranium. (U-238 can be processed into Plutonium-239 but that's another issue.)

You could put a piece of DU on your desk for the next 50 years and never suffer any ill effects nor would anyone else in your household. However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

If one looks a little deeper at the groups who push the stories about DU causing just about every known health problem, you'll usually find their agenda is more anti-U.S. than true concern over any possible health effects of depleted uranium.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1651 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Well, I'm no nuclear scientist, and I've been handling DU rounds for - well, literally most of my adult life. I have never, ever, seen evidence - personally - that the DU rounds have caused any problems.

And there we have part of the reason I am suspicous of this link.

However a lot of the claims is with atomized DU, unlike the rounds you where handling ANCFlyer.

However I would be curious to see if there was a higher rate in tank kill surviors. They would have been in close proximity to freshly atomized DU and possibly in a confined space.

If you don't see a higher rate of cancer, deforminites and the like in that group then I think we could rule out DU.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1640 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
However I would be curious to see if there was a higher rate in tank kill surviors.

Dude, we didn't leave any survivors . . . I assure you. If the Sabot didn't get them the coax did.

I've got to think you've seen pictures, video, etc. If anyone lived through some of those it's probably not the DU that killed them (eventually).


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1635 times:



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Dude, we didn't leave any survivors . . . I assure you. If the Sabot didn't get them the coax did.

Yeah I saw the video of yall "popping the tops" off T-72's.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1627 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Yeah I saw the video of yall "popping the tops" off T-72's.

 biggrin 

We did good huh.

Like opening a can of beer . . . . easier in fact.

Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1 . . . and the fact that we were taking them out at extremely long ranges . . . when they couldn't even see us. . . whew it was great . . .

But I digress . . . I don't think DU had anything to do with the Gulf War illness . . .


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1628 times:

I am pretty sure (99.99%) the Apaches weren't allowed to shoot DU at Graf.

That was about the closest I ever got.

But like I said earlier, I can't picture these effects from radiation and no effects on the parents.

Chemicals and chemical reactions, I can see.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1624 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
I am pretty sure (99.99%) the Apaches weren't allowed to shoot DU at Graf.

Neither were we . . . in fact, we were specifically told is was verbotten.

I have fired service sabot on ranges in Germany, but not DU. . . ever.


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1572 times:



Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

And that's exactly what a lot of people are complaining about. Not handling the shells themselves but being exposed to the dust that they emit on impact. And I would tend to think that uranium is more harmful than lead.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

And who said the US hasn't used WMD since WWII? Weapons of Mass Deformation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1 . . . and the fact that we were taking them out at extremely long ranges . . . when they couldn't even see us. . . whew it was great . . .

What makes you think that the Russians haven't also taken to using DU in the design of their tanks and weapons? Take the T-90 as one such example.

Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1525 times:
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DU rounds are safe when handled properly, but no one will convince me that you don't need serious battlefield cleanup after those rounds are used. I think...hell, I know, that they are the most effective projectile weapons available now...but I hope that EM tech gets better soon so we can go straight to KE solid projectiles that kill with hyperspeed and medium density instead of high speed and ultradensity.

On the issue of Gulf War Syndrome...there are many theories and I'm pretty sure that no one is ever going to put the finger on just one cause.

Its entirely possible that some people reacted badly to the routine of shots, and others might have breathed in noxious/poisonous fumes while coming near burning vehicles without adequate MOPP gear not realizing the danger.

Hell the entire country of Kuwait was blanketed with thick oil smoke for months and no one says that breathing that crap is good for you either.

There is also the issue of the nerve agent and other chem weapons that were destroyed by explosion after the war and we aren't sure whether any residue was left in the atmosphere to cause problems out there. I'll keep supporting the effort to get more research done, but no matter what, its going to be tough to tell a guy that his kid got leukemia because he got leukemia and it happens when there is a theory out there that says its someones fault. People want a solid reason to blame on anything that happens. It's human nature.

Quoting Russophile (Reply 15):
Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'

Put machine guns in the hands of the Confederates at Gettysburg and the results would have been different. That is more true than what Russophile is claiming. The M1-A1 performed better than anyone expected and the T-90 tanks still can't match the range of the 120mm gun on the M1. If you get shot prior to shooting you lose....that simple. In addition to the air support raining down Hellfire (literally) and Mavericks the Iraqis could have had hovertanks from a Heinlein book and still lost this without air support. Perhaps you ought to stick to your political theory, where you can argue theory all day long. Tanks out in the open with no air cover against other tanks with better range and electronics and air support will lose.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1512 times:



Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
You could put a piece of DU on your desk for the next 50 years and never suffer any ill effects nor would anyone else in your household. However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

When millions of rounds are fired, you would think at least some dust would result.

Obviously it is true that DU dust is harmful. However, I don't think the original story has sufficient information to determine if its all valid or relevant.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

The controversial nature of depleted uranium was the reason for some companies (or at least Rheinmetall) to develop a tungsten alloy that is at least as destructive as DU. Price tag, however, was said to be prohibitive, so the US Army, contrary to the Bundeswehr, continued to use (US made) DU ammo.

A fortnight or so ago, Spiegel reported that dust of this very tungstren alloy is believed to be just as carcinogenic as dust of depleted uranium.  Yeah sure



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1471 times:



Quoting Russophile (Reply 15):
Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'

As usual Russo, we disagree. Experience in a tank turret having the upper hand here, I believe in all fairness to you I probably wasn't thinking "Whew this is great" we're killing everyone - more like "Whew this is great" they're not killing US!

And it would be the same against the T-90. The thing simple doesn't have the range or to stabilization platform to allow it to fire accurately in all conditions and at much greater ranges.

But to each their own, when you become King Rat in Austraila you can equip your Armies with the T-90, I'm sticking with the M1A1/M1A2 Abrams . . . all the way.

Like that old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. . .


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

I have a few DU rounds on my bookcase, taken from the Navy's Phalynx 20MM gun. (ship's close in weapons system, or CWIS). No problems so far. The stuff is damn effective against missles/other incoming nasties, put 4,000 of em up per minute, matter pretty much ceases to exist Big grin

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 20):
have a few DU rounds on my bookcase, taken from the Navy's Phalynx 20MM gun

Are they DU? Or are they baby blue training rounds that aren't DU? It was the latter we where shooting at Graf and somebody picked up a couple one time I was there off the range. They came from 3-4 Cav, which was a Cobra unit at the time. They had used the range the day before.

I can't for the life of me see why you would want a DU round in an anti-aircraft round. Seems like it would punch straight through, without doing much damage.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1

The T-72 was 20 years old by the time Gulf War I rolled around mind you, and an export version at that.  Yeah sure


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1365 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 22):
The T-72 was 20 years old by the time Gulf War I rolled around mind you, and an export version at that.

And the Abrams was 12-16 years old at the time . . . that excuse/reason holds no water . . . .

Not to mention I've see the "real" ones - meaning the non-export version - and still was not impressed. Auto-Loader, no turret floor, woefulyy inadequate thermal, literally non-existent laser range finder or at least one that is inaccurate as hell.

I'll take an Abrams any time, any place, any battlefield . . . .


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
I'll take an Abrams any time,

So would I, but I wouldn't be commenting on Russian tank designers after Desert Storm because:


  • The ones that actually designed the T-72 were probably retired/dead by then and would not have to worry about their job security
  • The ones that were in the design business at the time were working on models 2-3 generations/evolutions ahead of the 72 (which was first defeated in combat a good decade before the Gulf War rolled around anyways)


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
literally non-existent laser range finder or at least one that is inaccurate as hell.

That, along with the tank's entire aiming complex is its most glaring weakness, which coincidentally cannot be blamed on the actual tank designers (they did the best they could with what they had to work with).


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
25 GDB : As stated, a discharged DU round can be dangerous, for instance, what about Allied troops inspecting killed Iraqi tanks as a result of a DU round? The
26 MD-90 : Why can't they just use steel, even if it's less dense? Which nation is most likely to seriously challenge the USA? China. Which nation has the world'
27 ANCFlyer : In elementary terms, it's too soft and too light weight. Won't penetrate the armor - sometimes at all, often not completely; won't fly as far as fast
28 L-188 : Force=massxacceleration. So the greater the mass you can get by using heavlier materials such as Tungsten or DU, the more force you will hit a target
29 DeltaGuy : I'm definately not a weapon designer, but when you have a wall of DU coming right at you (4,000-6,000 rounds per minute), it's just one big hard wall
30 Sovietjet : I have a question....who the hell is Agent Orange?
31 Sprout5199 : You do? Were you an FC or GM? The closest I got to one was on-loading weapons. Heavy S.O.B.s. I do have a couple of shells from our 76mm gun. would h
32 MD11Engineer : Uranium is a very common element, it is not rare at all. The only thing about it is that, beside being used in ceramic glacing (it gives a blue colour
33 DfwRevolution : Not a person, a chemical herbicide used in Vietnam The jungles in the Mykong (sp?) river delta were so dense, they provided excellent cover for NVA c
34 Sprout5199 : I wouldn't. Lead is known to cause birth defects, and a lot of other nasty stuff. The sheriff's dept I work for had to pay a lot of fines to the EPA
35 Boeing7E7 : I can think of a couple biological weapons that would cause this in births... Not only in a current generation of children, but in a generation skippi
36 Sprout5199 : Just looked at the first link. "The Morality Of Weapons Systems" Now thats a oxymoron if I ever heard of one. Dan in Jupiter
37 Pacificjourney : US doesn't use DU rounds on it's own soil though, it's not allowed, just other people's. I wonder why ...... All you guys with one sitting on your des
38 Sprout5199 : I dont think they had DU the last time the US had to fight on her own soil Dan in Jupiter
39 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Neither lol...my dad was the Combat Officer (in charge of CDC) onboard the USS Carl Vinson...I knew a few GM's and between them and my own dad, I alw
40 L-188 : A lot of the guys with issues where Gi's operating in areas that had been sprayed.
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