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Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?  
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

In the late 1970s, there was an abundance of fine luxury sedans to choose from for various countries.
I want to know if American, British, German and Soviet models in that class
ever competed in the same country. I know limited numbers of
American cars were imported to Europe at that time.
Only the super wealthy were able to afford these cars.



1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car
(United States)

Image hosted by Photobucket.com





1977 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
(United States)








1979-81 (?) Jaguar Vanden Plas
(United Kingdom)








1978 Mercedes 6.9
(West Germany)






1978 Zil
(Soviet Union)



[Edited 2005-03-10 20:18:20]

[Edited 2005-03-10 20:20:14]


Bring back the Concorde
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2257 times:



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
I want to know if American, British, German and Soviet models in that class
ever competed in the same country.

Superfly,

My guess would be (key word guess) maybe one of the Middle Eastern oil-producing countries (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc.). I don't know if the Zil was ever imported elsewhere; maybe to some other Iron-Curtain countries, perhaps. If you eliminated the Soviet Zil from your list; there would be a lot more countries (including the U.S.) that sold these cars.

BTW, you should've posted a picture of a '76 Cadillac instead of the '77 because that was the last year of the monster-sized models with the 500 cid V8s.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Fine looking ships there...


"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2244 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 1):
BTW, you should've posted a picture of a '76 Cadillac instead of the '77 because that was the last year of the monster-sized models with the 500 cid V8s.

OK I was showing a bias. 9-P

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 1):
I don't know if the Zil was ever imported elsewhere; maybe to some other Iron-Curtain countries, perhaps.

No Zils imported to Scandinavia?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

I meant to say I was trying to show a Lincoln superiority over Cadillac.

I was hesetant to include the Rolls Royce only because it was so much more expensive than the others. However I think the Zil cost more than the Rolls Royce.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

'Fly, with the only limited market of the very wealthy in the U.S, the Royces (car guys, especially those from the Island, will know why you don't call them Rolls') and the lesser-badged Bentleys, comparitively few higher level imported sedans found ultra popularity here in the upper-luxo market in the era you mentioned. The number of other elites who wanted a Jaguar or Mercedes or similar, desiring a notable car without outrageous expenditure, chose so, but remember, at that time, even if you HAD to have a notable ride, you'd eventually get tired of (shall we say) a day-to-day reliability problem plus waiting for service and imported parts. Even big-titted movie stars who'd gladly pay Juan the pool-boy extra for a mid-morn frolic would eventually get pissed when her "Marquis de Marquis XJ-VIX" wouldn't start to get her to the afternoon martini with Juan the pool-boy II.

In parallel, American luxo-boats had the same minus-signature with the added negative of size overseas. The Lincs and Caddys of the era where simply too much of a footprint problem on the tiny (almost dwarf-like in many instances) roads in Europe. Physical placement, turning radius, not to mention fuel required to power a 300% larger engine moving 200% more vehicle mass simply never caught favor in Europe irrespective of status. They wanted the uniqueness, prestige, of an American car mostly when offered in a more manageable form, like the Mustang (called T-6 in Germany because of a name copyright law), or an Impala/Catalina if you wanted a REAL big car. Usually, Caddys and Lincs and the rare Imperial were only "heads-of-state" or similar chieftan rides.

As an aside, the Russian ZILs (ZIFs ?) were large Packard/Mercedes (mostly Packard wannabe styling) clones that were reserved mostly for pomp and ceremony and were never really offered for general sale.

Europeans, irrespective of what country, have mostly been negative to American "decadence" in respect to autos. This has changed (ever so slightly so) as USA manufacturers make tippy-toe steps into understanding European psychological (and honest engineering) requirements. Although more USA upper-level rides are now being purchased overseas, I believe the ratio will still border on the insignificant chart just as it has been historically. For the few(er) elite, purchase and operating costs, as well as operational functionality will not be that much of a problem, but for those who can afford the bucks, even most of them will still be put off by excessive (for their environment) size and operational manouvreability today just as much as they were in the past.

My humble observations...I'm sure others can add/subtract to my opinions. Regards..Jack



all best; jack
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Cptkrell:
Thanks for the info. I left off the Imperial because the last year for those was 1975. Yes the New Yorker Brougham 1976-1978 were the same car, it's a Chrysler which isn't as elite at Lincoln and Cadillac. Name recognition is very important in this class of vehicle.


Even big-titted movie stars who'd gladly pay Juan the pool-boy extra for a mid-morn frolic would eventually get pissed when her "Marquis de Marquis XJ-VIX" wouldn't start to get her to the afternoon martini with Juan the pool-boy II.

You are reminding me of a very special older lady. It's fun being a 'boy toy' on occasions.  Smile


As an aside, the Russian ZILs (ZIFs ?) were large Packard/Mercedes (mostly Packard wannabe styling) clones that were reserved mostly for pomp and ceremony and were never really offered for general sale.

I have a National Geography Magazine from 1977 and one of the stories was on the Soviet Union. They covered many facets of life in the USSR including there automobiles and aviation. It has a photo of the TU-144 in a factory.
They showed then President Brezhnev motorcade with the Zil.
The article mentioned that the Zil sales for $75,000!  Wow!
That was more expensive than a Rolls Royce!



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

Does Zil still make the limo?


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineTriStarEnvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Enjoy!

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/4546/

Found this site a while back....



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlineCathay Pacific From Australia, joined May 2000, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

I used to wanna own a Cadillac when I was a kid :P


cathay pacific, now you're really flying
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Wow!  Wow!
That is a neat convertible.
I am sure the well connected members of the Communist party enjoyed nice summer drives along the Black Sea in one of these.
Drive around Odessa in one of these and score on all the young hot Ukranian & Russian babes.  Cool





Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2013 times:

Damn!
How could I forget the Toyota Century?!?!







Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineTristarEnvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

Speaking of cool Toyota's, my high school girlfriend had a 1971 Toyota Crown. I've only seen one other in almost 30 years!


If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Well, the Zil wasn´t for sale until the break-up of the Sovietunion, here´s
an used one for sale http://www.mobile.de/SIDW1.4eyLRIcb0...ch=pkw&top=4&id=11111111128292530&
55 K€uro seem a bit steep though...


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

You forgot the Cadillac Series 75 Limousine. It was a big seller for Cadillac up to the 1980s and was the only limousine that Cadillac actually manufactured itself. The big stretch limousines are based on commercial chassies that Cadillac manufactured for the coach builders, so they're not pure Caddies per se.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1891 times:

Alessandro:
7,0?
Ich habe gedacht, dass der Zil eine 7,8 Litermaschine gehabt hat.  Confused



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1887 times:

Well, email them and ask, 7 or 7,8 liter that´s still thirsty...

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1843 times:

Thanks Alessandro.  Smile


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1840 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
Well, email them and ask, 7 or 7,8 liter that´s still thirsty...

For sake of clarification and for those that may not already know, here are some U.S./metric engine size comparisions (I'm not 100% sure of the exact litre to cubic inch conversion factor):

Ford's 400 and 460 cubic inch engines in later years had a 6.6 and 7.5 litre listing and GM's 500 cid (last offerred to the public on the '76 Cadillac DeVille/Fleetwood and Eldorado lines) have 8.2 litre listing. Some of the Eldorados from the early '70s had a '8.2 litre' listing on the front fenders.

Edited for correction from 8.0 ltr. to 8.2 ltr.

[Edited 2005-03-30 19:13:40]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1838 times:

PHILBOS:
You mean 8.2 liters for Cadillac, right?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
You mean 8.2 liters for Cadillac, right?

You're right, I meant 8.2.

I have since edited the original post.

[Edited 2005-03-30 19:14:25]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1875 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1804 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

GM sold an 8.2L engine for marine use a few years ago, don't know if it is still available with their recent large-scale dumping of the older engines for the new GM Modular engine platform. Hot rodders were buying up the 8.2L for automotive use. Needless to say, I'm sure you can move the world with one of those things. And watch your fuel gage move from F->E as you accelerate!

In 1986, when Gorbachev made a tour of the US, one of his stops was Minneapolis, where I live. Gorbachev got to fly AF1 (at the time the 707) on his stops and his cars were transported to all stops. He rode through Minneapolis in a Zil limousine. It was an entourage of police cars, Secret Service Suburbans, a Ford ambulance and Zil limos. It was the coolest motorcade to ever hit the streets of Minneapolis, probably even to this day. And that is even considering that Prince lives here (sometimes) too! Supposedly the Zil had a 7.0L V8 with 425-hp. Torque is probably a classified number.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Superfly, my guess would be they mostly competed in the Middle East. I only say that because that's where I remember seeing them the most on news clips. (That and Scotland, but they seemed to dig the Gremlins & Pacers.) Big grin

To all, just for clarification, I believe the big Caddy plant was actually 500.1 CID. Hey, with a monster like that, you have to get it all in there!



"Shaddap you!"
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1788 times:

Acidradio:
Ever been to Paisley Park studios or jump in Lake Minnetonka naked?  Smile
Purple Rain reference


The 500cu" engine was used through out the 19880s and early 1990s for GMC's commercial freight & delivery vans.

A.net member Sccutler has one in his beautiful 1976 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible.  Cool



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineTriStarEnvy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Hey, let's give the Diesel V-8 Caddy a nod....

Anybody?

Anybody?

Bueller?

Bueller?



If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
25 Post contains images Superfly : Funny TriStar! However, I don't think any of the full-sized super luxury cars ever came in diesel except the Mercedes S-class.
26 TriStarEnvy : Uber-Luxury Diesels were M-B's mostly! But, let's not forget the BMW Diesel powered Lincoln Mark VII! I'm not sure if the Town Car or bustle back Cont
27 Superfly : I got you covered. The BMW diesel engine was an option on the Mark VII and Continental busle backs for the 1984-1985 model year only. It was a turboc
28 TriStarEnvy : You are my hero. I forgot, as most everyone seemed to when they were NEW, that Lincoln even tried a Diesel. I was behind a Mark VII in about 1995, th
29 Post contains images PHLBOS : I thought the diesel engine was a 6-cylinder model.   Had this segment of the subject came to light last week, I would've checked a back issue Motor
30 Superfly : TriStarEnvy: At least Lincoln used a real diesel engine instead of converting a gas one. Too bad it was an underpowered BMW engine.
31 TriStarEnvy : Agreed. Too bad it didn't have more zip.
32 Superfly : Correct. TriStarEnvy: The BMW turbo diesel that was in the Lincoln Continental and Mark VII was an inline 6 cylinder. Still a gutless engine.
33 Post contains links and images TriStarEnvy : Hey, we left out a pretty cool entry for this thread! And SOME were sold in the US of A, too. Citroen CX
34 Post contains images Superfly : That is a nice car indeed! I am not sure if it's up in the same leauge or not as the ones above. Can a front wheel drive car wagon compete against the
35 Post contains images TriStarEnvy : As it probably broke every eight to ten minutes, I'd say..."no". Speaking of expensive Citroens waiting to break.... Just looking at this picture made
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