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USA In The Middle East  
User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

President Bush was quoted as saying " ... when the United States and France say withdraw, we mean complete withdrawal, no half-hearted measures."

It’s fascinating that the US is so intent on getting Syria out of Lebanon. After all, why shouldn't they? Syria is an occupying force. But wait ... So is Israel: Aside from its 50+ years of occupying Palestinian lands, Israeli troops occupied in south Lebanon for 22 years. Did the US ever call for a "complete withdrawal"? Never. Oh, and lest we forget that other occupying force in the Middle East: The USA, which currently has 140,000 troops in Iraq: There is no resolve in sight for this conflict. Over 2,000 US soldiers have lost their lives ... For What? I forgot: Oh yeah, the world was at immediate risk from the elusive Weapons of Mass Destruction, which were Never found. FYI: The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has reported that Israel has over 250 atomic and hydrogen bombs in its arsenal.

The irony is extraordinary: 140,000 American troops occupy Iraq - we shall leave the Israeli occupation forces in Palestinian lands out of this equation - while their Prime Minister demands the withdrawal of 14,000 Syrian troops from Lebanon. Democracy? I don't think so.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

I say we withdraw every single American troop in every country and then grab a few beers and watch it all go to hell.

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2168 times:

Capt.Fantastic :

There've been plenty of threads in this forum dealing with this specific issue. Just do a search. However , if this thread lives (and it will , gathering around 150 replies), you are about to encounter Arab members denying Israel, American members bashing Arabs and many other wonderful "opinions".

Enjoy the best of the worthless threads on A.Net.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinePhxairfan From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 811 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

You'd think after almost 6 years someone would get tired of the same old argument.

User currently offlineDamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

LY7E7, and how has your reply answered the raised questions?

As far as the US forces in Iraq are concerned ... yes, I was against the attack on Iraq, but I feel that in the situation given - pulling out would be the most dangerous thing, since the void left over would provide plenty of space for Islamic fundamentalists to rise to power. And that, unless it would be backed by democratic vote (fat chance), would be a very dangeours thing - and for the Iraqis only the oppressor would change, but the situation wouldn't have changed one bit.

D.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting N5176Y (Reply 1):
I say we withdraw every single American troop in every country and then grab a few beers and watch it all go to hell.

I'm with ya. It'll be funny as hell to watch the same people protesting the war today turn into the same people protesting the atrocities that would result. That would be some funny shit right there.


User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

I did a search and I did not find a topic analogous to this one: If this thread already exists(ed), I apologize for the duplication.
This discussion was going on in the aviation forum and it was suggested that I move it here.

I agree with Boeing7E7 (to a certain extent). As simple as his comment is, it makes perfect sense. Let's keep our armed forces out of harms way, until such a time that their service is needed to Defend our country, not to promote special interests and hidden political agendas.

Quote:
There've been plenty of threads in this forum dealing with this specific issue. Just do a search. However , if this thread lives (and it will , gathering around 150 replies), you are about to encounter Arab members denying Israel, American members bashing Arabs and many other wonderful "opinions".

LY7E7: Above, you note Arabs and Americans bashing Arabs. What about Israelis insighting such distasteful posts? This is exactly what you did with the above comment. If you don't like the thread, simply don't reply.


User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 6):
I agree with Boeing7E7 (to a certain extent). As simple as his comment is, it makes perfect sense. Let's keep our armed forces out of harms way, until such a time that their service is needed to Defend our country, not to promote special interests and hidden political agendas.

Ummm....No. Then it will be too late to deploy troops, and more will die as a result. We would lose all progress that was ever made. That is just asinine.



A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

StowAway: I am speaking in reference to the deployment of our forces in Iraq. In my opinion, there should never have been an invasion. The premise for war was to protect the world from weapons of mass destruction. No such weapons have been uncovered; furthermore Iraq never attacked or posed a threat to the USA. When a soldier is killed in Iraq, does he/she die for their country? I don't believe so. I have a great deal of respect for those who serve in our armed forces: They put their lives on the line when the Commander and Chief calls them to duty. I think Mr. Bush and his cohorts could have used better judgement in this Iraq debacle. What does the military tell the families? "Your son died for the placement of puppet regime, pseudo-democracy in Iraq." My heart goes out to the families who lost sons, daughters, husbands, wives.

Former President Clinton stated that he never considered Iraq a priority for the next administration. In meetings with Bush in 2000, Clinton advised him that North Korea deserved more concern.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 6):
What about Israelis insighting such distasteful posts?

Well, I do not. And if you DID make a search for threads dealing with Middle East, then perhaps you should now my views and opinions , yet your accusation simply shows that you did not bother to read.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Oh Boy, here we go again . . . another "Should have never been an Invasion" thread . . . I guess I can write this one off . . . since, obviously, there was an invasion . . .  sarcastic 

User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Two wrongs don't make it right. Let's suppose that the war in Iraq is/was wrong does this mean that other issues shouldn't be resolved?

Do we have to wait for the US to pull out of Iraq and Israel do so and so and be there peace in Sudan for the Syrian-Lebanese crisis to be solved?

Maybe the invasion of Iraq was wrong in the first place but look at it now. They are trying to build something amid all the terrorist attacks and killings. Some wars are fought very hard. Let's hope the best for the people of Iraq.

Regards.


User currently offlineLekohawk From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
It'll be funny as hell to watch the same people protesting the war today turn into the same people protesting the atrocities that would result. That would be some funny shit right there.

I think, sir, that you're missing the point entirely. The point is that there are other ways of accomplishing things besides sending in troops - but that it's typical of too many Americans to look no further than the muzzle of their gun for an answer to any problem. The war protests are not protesting the ends... they're protesting the means. I see you've "been there and participated" so it should be easy for you not to forget that there are people dying out there. That means that there are kids my age coming home in pine boxes. That's not noble... that's just a waste.

There's was no reason for us to go into Iraq... there was no threat to us there. You can trot out your oh-so-honorable: "But, we're freeing those people from the chains of tyranny" claptrap all you want... sending in troops was not the best solution to that problem... and I have a hard time believing that it was the foremost goal on anyone's mind when the desicion to invade was made anyway. You're all changing your argument because suddenly the WMD thing blew up in your face (pardon the pun).

At the end of the day? There are 1000+ young adults who are dead now and who were killed for no substantiatable reason. I find it disgusting and the fact that you, apparently, do not speaks only to the quality of your character. It's no wonder the rest of the world looks to us with scorn... when we portray that attitude, who can blame them? Further, the fact that you would dare to "laugh" about the attrocities of war - and the attrocities that are bound to happen when American troops depart Iraq - dishonors you, and all of those dead soldiers and the families who will never see them again. Shame on you.

[Edited 2005-03-12 11:25:02]


If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
I'm with ya. It'll be funny as hell to watch the same people protesting the war today turn into the same people protesting the atrocities that would result. That would be some funny shit right there.

We protest the fact that you went in in the first place - you can leave when you finish what you started.

Quoting Lekohawk (Reply 12):
That means that there are kids my age coming home in pine boxes. That's not noble... that's just a waste.

There are Iraqi kids who are a quarter of your age being buried there.

Quoting Lekohawk (Reply 12):
At the end of the day? There are 1000+ young adults who are dead now and who were killed for no substantiatable reason.

Can I ask you Americans a question? I understand that they are your fellow countrymen, but why is it that most Americans don't even bother mentioning the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis? There are many, many civilian deaths on the Iraqi side as opposed to the 1,500 military US deaths, why is it they always go unmentioned? Just something that I think is very unfair to the Iraqis, becasue they have suffered the most in this conflict.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
I'm with ya. It'll be funny as hell to watch the same people protesting the war today turn into the same people protesting the atrocities that would result. That would be some funny shit right there.

Yah hilarious.....

The fact is that the US helped create the pre-Iraqi invasion mess in the Middle East.

We would all love for the US to stop interfering with the rest of the world. And that includes exploiting, bullying and intimidating.

Some of you guys think the world would fall into chaos if it were not for the USA. Personally, given the state of affairs I think it would be an improvement.


User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1998 times:

Quoting Airplay (Reply 14):
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 5):
I'm with ya. It'll be funny as hell to watch the same people protesting the war today turn into the same people protesting the atrocities that would result. That would be some funny shit right there.

so this is the extend of american reality tv now then, going in to someone elces country, screwing it up and having a good laugh at it


User currently offlineNWA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1200 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1990 times:

"So is Israel: Aside from its 50+ years of occupying Palestinian lands"

I believe they won that after being attacked by them and many other countries. So if I am not mistaken, tough luck for them, spoils of war. You attacked, and got your ass whipped.

"We would all love for the US to stop interfering with the rest of the world. And that includes exploiting, bullying and intimidating.

Some of you guys think the world would fall into chaos if it were not for the USA. Personally, given the state of affairs I think it would be an improvement."

Says the guy from a country that huddles under the U.S. Its amazing, all the money we give out with AID, every time something bad happens over seas, it's "what is the U.S going to do", and we do it. So stop your bitching. I have got a great idea, stop asking the U.S. for money. You don't like us, so stop asking for money. Amazing how when we invaded Iraq, India told Iraq that they would help them if they wanted.....then we give them money after the earthquake. Amazing. Big bullies, yep. We are not part of the U.N., or NATO either. We always do things on our own, nothing is ever a joint effort. Give me a break.

"so this is the extend of american reality tv now then, going in to someone elces country, screwing it up and having a good laugh at it"

I think you know as well as I do that THAT was not the intent of his post. His intent was that it would be funny becuase sometimes you just can't win. People want one thing then bitch about it.



23 victor, turn right heading 210, maintain 3000 till established, cleared ILS runwy 24.
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1982 times:

After all, why shouldn't they? Syria is an occupying force. But wait ... So is Israel: Aside from its 50+ years of occupying Palestinian lands, Israeli troops occupied in south Lebanon for 22 years. Did the US ever call for a "complete withdrawal"? Never. Oh, and lest we forget that other occupying force in the Middle East: The USA, which currently has 140,000 troops in Iraq:

The US and Israel are democracies. Syria is one of the worst regimes in the Middle East. There is NO moral equivalency.

Yesterday, I had a taxi driver who moved to the US from Afghanistan 25 years ago. I can not describe the feeling talking to this man, who voted in Afghani elections and who voted for George W Bush last year. Let us not forget what this conflict is over--Freedom in the simplest form.

What about Israelis insighting such distasteful posts?

If you bothered to use the search function, you would see that aside from LY7E7, Israeli-Palestinian threads usually involve Americans and non-Palestinian Arabs, not Israelis and Palestinians.


User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

NWA: Quite honestly, I don't believe you shouldn't be posting in this forum. Your use of profanity is not necessary. Furthermore, you complete and utter lack of understanding of what's being discussed here is more reason for you not to post in this thread. If you don't know the history than you can't understand the present state of affairs. If you don't have something intelligent to say, don't say anything. There are people here with whom I disagree, but at least they articulate themselves in a cordial adult-like manner. Maybe you should do the same.

QR332: I am aware of the thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and it is sad shame. Whether US soldiers or young civilians, any casualty of this war is a life lost. Many who mourn the deaths of our troops also grieve for the innocent people who also perished in this unlawful war. Its sad that GW and his blood thirsty advisors can't equate the value of human life.

btw, if Iraq's major export was grapefruit, do you think GW would be so steadfast on democracy? I think not.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1967 times:

Quoting NWA (Reply 16):
I believe they won that after being attacked by them and many other countries. So if I am not mistaken, tough luck for them, spoils of war. You attacked, and got your ass whipped.

You guys really need a good history lesson. The Jews immigrated into Palestine starting in 1918 when Palestine was handed over to Britain, and then they established themselves in Palestine. During the late 30s and early 40s, their terrorist gangs such as the Irgun and the Haganah carried out many terrorist attacks against the Palestinians, and conflict between the Jews and the Arabs lasted until 1948, when the Jews decided to form their own homeland and using their terrorist gangs and armies, expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, massacred thousands, and looted 78% of Palestine. How could we have attacked them if they weren't even a country yet? The armies of the Arab neighbours of Palestine only entered after the occupying and ethnic cleansing of Palestine started. Now, 1948 aside, theres 1967, and Israel is still holding and occupying our land from then in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. They are also still holding the Golan Heights, which is Syrian land.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 17):
The US and Israel are democracies. Syria is one of the worst regimes in the Middle East. There is NO moral equivalency.

Democracies, yes, but that does not wipe away the crimes both countries have commited. The tens of thousands of dead in Iraq, and the tens of thousands dead in Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan will not all just dissapear because they are a democracy.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 17):
If you bothered to use the search function, you would see that aside from LY7E7, Israeli-Palestinian threads usually involve Americans and non-Palestinian Arabs, not Israelis and Palestinians.

Actually, they involve Americans and Palestinians. Me and BA are the ones usually arguing in Palestine/Israel threads, and we are both Palestinians ethnically. Or are you going to tell me where i'm from now too?

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 18):
Many who mourn the deaths of our troops also grieve for the innocent people who also perished in this unlawful war. Its sad that GW and his blood thirsty advisors can't equate the value of human life.

I know Capt, all I am saying is i've noticed that many of those against the war fail to mention the Iraqi casualties, which I think is very unfair for the Iraqi civilians who died because of an unjustified war.

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 18):
btw, if Iraq's major export was grapefruit, do you think GW would be so steadfast on democracy? I think not.

Try telling all the righties on this forum that.


User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

I think that if there really was instability in the region, the countries nearby would have done something about it, it just seems sooo fishy that a nation 1000s of miles away would come into the middle east and operate with the claim that they had to step in bc there is instability and terror.....

im just saying the world and its people arent that easy to fool anymore and yes while the US is a super powr etc etc etc.....that doesn't stop the rest of the world from hating....
power is limited, hatred isnt....



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1427 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1933 times:

Quoting NWA (Reply 16):
Says the guy from a country that huddles under the U.S. Its amazing

- referring to Canada.


This "huddling" was best demonstrated a few weeks ago when Canada refused to participate in U.S. Missile Defence program.


User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

RJPieces: Turn off FOX News and seek out unbiased, intelligent sources. Try the Guardian or the Independent; both are online. If you are relying soley on US media for your information, you are terribly misinformed.

User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

RJPieces: Turn off FOX News and seek out unbiased, intelligent sources. Try the Guardian or the Independent; both are online. If you are relying soley on US media for your information, you are terribly misinformed.

Please tell me what I said in this thread that was misinformed? That there are no democracies in the Arab world...?

And FYI, I rarely watch Fox News. I much prefer CNN. But even that is biased by your standards.


User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quote:
Please tell me what I said in this thread that was misinformed?


RJPieces: Most of what you say is vague and based on conjecture, not facts, e.g. you describe Syria as "one of the worst regimes". According to who, and by what standards? You keep harping on this issue of "democracy". Just because a country is democratic doesn't necessarily mean that liberty and justice for all prevails. FYI: The US was a "democracy" during the period of Slavery and when women were not allowed to vote. During WWII, Japanese Americans were taken from their homes and sequestered into concentration camps. Stop with the contention that democracy and GW shall heal the plight of the world. The world is far more complicated, and so is our Foreign Policy.

Quote:
Syria is one of the worst regimes in the Middle East. There is NO moral equivalency.

"Moral equivalency"? What do you mean?


25 QR332 : Capt - as much as it pains me to do this, i'm going to have to agree with RJ here. Syria's Baath regime is monstrous by anyone's standards; they are
26 NWA : Capt.Fantastic: Please, tell me what I said that was of any less intelligence than yours? BTW, it's 'I don't believe you SHOULD', not SHOULDN'T. Doubl
27 LY7E7 : The immigration was insignificant before the establishment of the State of Israel. Here are some figures: Jewish Immigrants to Palestine 1919 1,806 1
28 LY7E7 : True with respect to Irgun only, although you shouldn't forget the massacres performed by the Arabs, such as the Hebron massacre of 1929. We only had
29 Capt.Fantastic : Let me be clear: I was in no way sticking up for Syria or Assad. Rather, I was just making the point that statements such as the one made by RJPieces
30 Lekohawk : I should note why I failed (and, I did so intentionally) to mention the Iraqi civilians who have died: I've found that when arguing with Americans who
31 Post contains images QR332 : I don't understand the point you are trying to make, but I have added up your numbers, and they add up to 379,370 immigrants between 1919 and 1941. I
32 LY7E7 : And that was is called xenophobia. Also , perhaps you've noticed that the majority of immigrants had arrived in the late 30s, trying to save themselv
33 QR332 : LY, your right, this is gonna go around and around, all i'm going to say is this: One thing - the Arabs knew a new Jewish state was to be established
34 Rjpieces : As for Abu Mazen, its not that easy, especially with the huge amounts of popular support they have. The worst thing Abu Mazen could try to do at this
35 Post contains images QR332 : Or, he could also negotiate with the different groups - a civil war in the Palestine for you is nothing, because you aren't affected by it - in fact,
36 RJpieces : Or, he could also negotiate with the different groups - a civil war in the Palestine for you is nothing, because you aren't affected by it - in fact,
37 Post contains images QR332 : Lets get something clear RJ - you don't know shit about how I feel about ANYTHING related to this conflict. Now, I never said discussing them to disa
38 Post contains links LY7E7 : On tonight's news there has been an extensive interview with Abu Mazen. Once again I got the impression of him being a very serious leader, who stands
39 Capt.Fantastic : Quoting RJPieces For goodness sake. What's your point anyway? Our 140,000 troops are at risk every second of their presence in Iraq. Over 2,000 Americ
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