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US Kidnaps In Europe  
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7164399/

Well so much for International law. The US must have zero crediblity now. The question is, how long are Europeans going to keep electing these poodles that refuse to stand up to Bush?

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1721 times:

Lesson to World ( In case you haven't figured it out already)

Bush will will break International law when it benefits the US yet we will also consider breaking International law as a grounds for US hostile action.

The ends justify the means...now why don't you love us?....LOL


User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

I won't lose any sleep tonight over it. If it prevents another terrorist attack, so be it. The cowards started this, and we are going to finish it.


A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

Hopefully those in Europe who fit this description will wake up and face reality before it is too late. Europe needs to realize that Islamic terrorists are as much of a threat to them as they are to the United States. The Dutch are slowing waking up to the fact but others, such as Spain, would rather surrender and hope the terrorists won't strike again. Sadly it may take an attack that kills thousands before Europe wakes up and realizes that appeasing the terrorists or ignoring them isn't going to work.

Then of course there are those on the left in the United States who want to give the terrorists special rights (ACLU, CAIR and other such groups) and make sure they're treated like simple criminals. Of course their real reason is to try and attack the President but they seem to forget the majority of Americans agree with how the President is fighting the War on Terror. September 11th didn't wake them up to reality but they'll be the ones screaming the loudest should their be another terrorist attack.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21860 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Yeah, it may be a way to combat terrorism, but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go? Of course not.

Now, this does bring up an interesting question, and I'd be interested in hearing what people think. Do the ends justify the means in the war on terror (and if you want to extend it to other things that's fine too)? I know my opinion on the matter, but I'd be interested in hearing what you all think.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go? Of course not.

Refresh my memory on the last time a cleric from America was linked with killing thousands of innocent people. You win the prize, my friend. You win.



A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21860 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Well, he's not a cleric, but a certain Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as an American who was linked with killing a lot of people.

And I don't think it's farfetched at all to say that somewhere in the US there's someone plotting a large-scale attack right now.

We're not all saints.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

OK, so maybe "it's just me" - pardon the pun, couldn't resist . . .

I'm sure the United States is the ONLY entity in the world doing this, right? No one else would even consider it right? Every other country on this planet is fair and would never dare think to do this, right?

OK, I was just checking . . .


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21860 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I'm sure the United States is the ONLY entity in the world doing this, right? No one else would even consider it right? Every other country on this planet is fair and would never dare think to do this, right?

Either our intelligence service's ability to keep things secret sucks, or else yes, we would seem to be the only ones doing it. I'm not saying that other countries wouldn't like to do something like this on occasion, but we never hear about them carrying through on it. So, my conclusion would be that they'd like to, but they know that it really isn't their place to detain people on the soil of other sovreign countires.

If someone knows of other countries doing something like this, please post a link. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Dictator-run countries (North Korea, Iraq pre-invasion, etc.) don't count, though.

-Mir

[Edited 2005-03-13 08:46:36]


7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Well, he's not a cleric,



Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
it may be a way to combat terrorism, but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go?

If there is one thing I hate, it is sensationalism. banghead  Timothy McVeigh is FAR from a Cleric.

Anybody who does harm to innocent people are in the red beam. It doesn't matter who the hell you are.



A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Either our intelligence service's ability to keep things secret sucks, or else yes, we would seem to be the only ones doing it. I'm not saying that other countries wouldn't like to do something like this on occasion, but we never hear about them carrying through on it. So, my conclusion would be that they'd like to, but they know that it really isn't their place to detain people on the soil of other sovreign countires.

OK, let me get the emoticon ready that indicates SARCASM and post it here . . .

Mir - buddy - that entire post I made was a large vein of Sarcasm. Of COURSE we're not the only country doing this. Of course other countries do this and do it routinely.

TO think otherwise is to be naive.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Guys, these "Kidnappings" are only allegations.

Fact is the cleric that was nabbed could have been grabbed by anybody.

Maybe he was picked up by the national pork council.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21860 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Of COURSE we're not the only country doing this. Of course other countries do this and do it routinely.

First off, I did know it was sarcasm. That kind of stuck out like a sore thumb.  Smile
Now, if other countries are doing this too, fair enough, but then we need to get better about keeping things quiet. This is kind of embarassing on the world stage (though L-188 is right, there is no proof that we did it).

Quoting StowAway (Reply 9):
Timothy McVeigh is FAR from a Cleric

I never said he was one. Let me phrase it better - change "cleric" to "random guy off the street" in my initial post and that should be a better description of what I meant to say.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAdam From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
Guys, these "Kidnappings" are only allegations.

Fact is the cleric that was nabbed could have been grabbed by anybody.

Maybe he was picked up by the national pork council.

From page 5 of the article in question:

Flight logs also support Masri's claim that he was flown out of Macedonia by U.S. secret agents. Aviation records show a U.S.-registered Boeing jet arrived in Skopje at 9 p.m. on Jan. 23, 2004, and departed about six hours later. Masri had provided German investigators with the same time and date.

The flight plan shows the aircraft was scheduled to go to Kabul, but later amended its route to include a stopover in Baghdad. The existence of the flight logs was first reported by Frontal 21, a news show on the German television network ZDF. A copy of the logs was obtained by The Washington Post.

Records show the jet, with tail number N313P, was registered at the time to a U.S. firm, Premier Executive Transport Services Inc., that records suggest is a CIA front company. The same firm owned another aircraft, a Gulfstream jet, that has been used in other rendition cases, including the one in Sweden.

Masri's attorney and investigators said they think he was abducted because his name is similar to that of an al Qaeda suspect, Khalid Masri, who allegedly played a crucial role in persuading the members of the Hamburg cell that carried out the Sept. 11 attacks to go to Afghanistan, where they first met Osama bin Laden.


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User currently onlineCadmus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

I'm willing to tollerate acts such as this in the present circumstances, subject to certain safeguards, one of which must be the involvement of the host government in the process. The last thing we need is for our respective law enforcement agencies to end up investigating/attacking each other, rather than the people that they're supposed to be looking for.


Understanding is a three-edged sword
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

What a load of crap! NO European country wants to protect terrorists any more than the US does. There is a difference between protecting a country from a REAL terrorist and pulling up people on the streets and forcing them to make statements under torture. The US would do well to understand that difference.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Hopefully those in Europe who fit this description will wake up and face reality before it is too late

FYI, Europe has been fighting terrorists much before the US even realized what it was all about. Why Europe, you can include Israel, India and several african nations amongst those which have been fighting terrorism before the US woke up to it on 9/11. The US must stop sermonzing and learn a thing or two from nations who have been doing this for a very long time.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineStowAway From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 640 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 15):
FYI, Europe has been fighting terrorists much before the US even realized what it was all about. Why Europe, you can include Israel, India and several african nations amongst those which have been fighting terrorism before the US woke up to it on 9/11. The US must stop sermonzing and learn a thing or two from nations who have been doing this for a very long time.

Not an option. Every situation is unique. The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.



A monkey's ass always talks crap.
User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5052 posts, RR: 44
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting StowAway (Reply 16):
The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.

And what exactly is it that makes you think that other nations don't do that?

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

Ah, the trademark B757300 response. Someone criticizes US actions, and they are immediately labelled terrorist supporters. Tell me, do you actually believe the crap you write yourself?

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Then of course there are those on the left in the United States who want to give the terrorists special rights

Of course, no B757300 response would be complete without another far-fetched attack on 'The Evil Lefties'. You need a hobby.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Quoting StowAway (Reply 16):
Not an option. Every situation is unique. The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.

A weak justification, if ever. When countries with far fewer resources have been battling terrorism and saving lives , I don't see why the US can't learn from them and even better their methods with its superior resources, especially when islamic terrorists are the common enemy.

or maybe I do...



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

When a self-proposed "beacon of hope and freedom" turns to gratuitous torture and lawlessness (and no, "outsourcing" doesn´t wash away any of the blood stains!), it is easily visible that this will be badly counterproductive in a situation as complex as it is.

Not invading Iraq and stabilizing Afghanistan instead would have made a huge difference; It could have prevented Afghanistan turning back into a druglord-controlled fertile territory for a resurgence of the Taleban from the neighbouring Pakistan - whose dictator is now one of Washingtons torture contractors and can´t be pressured in a situation as fragile as it is.

A few less massive strategic blunders could have made a world of difference, much more than a stupid, heavy-handed and grossly illegal abduction campaign through the CIA.

Congratulations, Mr. Bush and panicking apologists, you´re really "doing great"!  Yeah sure


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1531 times:

I never said he was one. Let me phrase it better - change "cleric" to "random guy off the street" in my initial post and that should be a better description of what I meant to say.

McVeigh is a bad example only because no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him and done bad things to to him. In fact, that would've been applauded. I better example: What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either. I predict the general conventional widsom would be 'he had it coming'.

Also PadCrasher, don't you think our European friends would reserve judgement until something is proven. You should give them more credit.



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him



Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either.

Correct on both counts . . . just taking the detritus off the American streets. Certainly I wouldn't care . . .

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
heavy-handed and grossly illegal abduction campaign through the CIA.

Klaus, you're an intelligent individual. Do you believe the US/CIA is the only entity engaged in this kind of activty?


User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5052 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
McVeigh is a bad example only because no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him and done bad things to to him. In fact, that would've been applauded. I better example: What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either.

If either of this happened, you BET there would be a HUGE political riot. Remember, this isn't about what the people would think, it's about this being ILLEGAL.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Do you believe the US/CIA is the only entity engaged in this kind of activty?

Certainly not , ANCflyer. Many other intelligence outfits of other shady countries do it as well.

But I said it, other "shady" countries, not first world , developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources like the USA.

The CIA is an organization which played a huge role in winning the cold war, and one which has extensive experience in battling all forms of terrorists, insurgents, mad dictators etc, and one which has the most advanced communication and military technologies at its disposal.

Surely one would expect such an orgnization to do better than to indulge in something so amateur as picking up a smalltime suspect off the street and cart him off to a shady country to be tortured, isn't it ?

[Edited 2005-03-13 15:49:34]


Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 23):
But I said it, other "shady" countries, not first world , developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources like the USA.

What I'm hearing from you then is that only the USA - as you have described as being a . . .

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 23):
developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources

. . . are involved in this type of activity. You don't think the UK does anything like this.

You must not get out often . . . as I mentioned earlier, if you don't believe it's occuring in other countries, you're quite naive.


25 Post contains links SATL382G : First world European countries, like Germany, are not beyond doing a snatch and grab from a foreign country whose gov't is unwilling or unable to do
26 MD11Engineer : The US have an official law permitting the use of undercover teams in other, even allied, countries to arrest terror suspects and suspects of murderin
27 Post contains images Klaus : SATL382G: First world European countries, like Germany, are not beyond doing a snatch and grab from a foreign country whose gov't is unwilling or unab
28 Post contains images Flybyguy : Agreed. Welcome to my respected users list. I've been saying this ever since I became an A.net member, no-one seems to yield, especially from the Eur
29 SATL382G : Klaus, I thought we were talking about a sovereign nation kidnapping a citizen of another sovereign nation. As for the German kidnapping being clandes
30 MD11Engineer : If I read the article correctly, it was a UN War Crimes Tribunal order carried out by German troops under UN and Nato command, in a country under part
31 Scorpio : You don't get out much, do you? FWIW, Europe has been actively battling terrorism for decades. We're far more experienced at this than the US, who on
32 Post contains links Klaus : SATL382G: Klaus, I thought we were talking about a sovereign nation kidnapping a citizen of another sovereign nation. Dictionary.com/kidnapping: "To s
33 L-188 : Exactly, if there is anybody to blame for this law it is the Italians. The US got burned once, so never again. Assuming of course that the CIA is beh
34 Post contains images N317AS : You know, I've heard there are people in countries in the middle east that kidnap foreigners off the street, and just for laughs behead them while vi
35 MD11Engineer : L-188, On the other hand, how would you react if e.g. the British MI6 would send a snatch squad made up of Paras into Boston to apprehend an IRA sympa
36 N5176Y : I dunno how L-188 would react but I'd say "Good Riddance."
37 Post contains images L-188 : MD11engineer. Depends on who it was. Ted Kennedy, no problem.
38 Flybyguy : You say this but Europe has had terrorist acts smite them left and right since 9-11, while The United States of America has been free of attacks. We
39 MD11Engineer : One thing you forget is that you have oceans between your country and any places from which most of the current terrorists hail. Most countries here
40 Damirc : Puzzled look. Alternate reality perhaps? The only attack was on 11.3.2004 in Madrid. And regarding 9/11 ... the USA has been warned (amongst other) a
41 Scorpio : Flybyguy, Thank you very much for confirming you indeed do not know the first thing about Europe and terrorism. No use trying to argue with such simpl
42 Mir : While not as important as they once were, having oceans on the east and west sides of the country does help. But I think that it can mostly be attrib
43 SATL382G : Read the other definitions on the same page I'm sure lots of clandestine ops are a matter of official record. So what? It's what's on the public reco
44 Post contains images SATL382G : How do we know this (or something similiar) hasn't already happened? Perhaps even with a wink wink nudge nudge from the US gov't. It's only the botch
45 MD11Engineer : SATL382G, If you´d bother to read the article you´d have found out that this guy was hiding in the "Republika Srbska", a region controlled by Serb m
46 Post contains images Klaus : SATL382G: Read the other definitions on the same page Give it up. Every definition of "kidnapping" requires illegal activities. It does not apply to l
47 ANCFlyer : Interestingly, I don't think the US or any other "first world" country has beheaded anyone lately - even if the person was "kidnapped" using Klause c
48 Post contains links and images Klaus : ANCFlyer: I don't think the US or any other "first world" country has beheaded anyone lately "Just" beaten to death, apparently - again! And it would
49 ANCFlyer : I read the article earlier today. I hope the troops responsible are prosecuted. No excuses; I make for them and I have none to offer. That is nonsens
50 MD11Engineer : SgtMaj, You have been a professional soldier for more than 20 years and been wearing a uniform. I´ve been wearing a German civil defense uniform as a
51 Klaus : I´m very much aware of the individual people in uniform. But that´s the whole point: There have been so many massive violations of human rights all
52 ANCFlyer : Jan, funny you should mention this my friend. As I'm on patrol this evening, I'm thinking to myself about this thread. I'm continually amazed at the
53 Post contains images Klaus : Interesting post crossover, I must say. I gather you possibly took slightly more than three minutes writing yours...
54 N5176Y : Massive violations of human rights?
55 Klaus : There are significant numbers of independent reports about widespread abuse, torture and even killings through the entire US war prison system in Afgh
56 N5176Y : How about Germany's ignorance of Darfur? Does that constitute a "massive violation of human rights?" I mean, during the few months when the Europeans
57 Post contains images Klaus : N5176Y: How about Germany's ignorance of Darfur? Does that constitute a "massive violation of human rights?" On the part of the perpetrators, sure. On
58 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yes it was . . . I see your point(s) Klaus, but I would submit, that although there have been many incidents, I don't think there have been as many a
59 MD11Engineer : SgtMaj, Remember the My Lay trials back in the 1970s? About a dumbass lieutenant, who believed that once in Vietnam normal rules of decency were not v
60 ANCFlyer : Yes . . . I remember. As I said, always going to be the bad apples. Nature of the human beast. It makes the balance of the force structure look bad.
61 MD11Engineer : SgtMaj, I have an example from WW2, told to me by the son of a former Italian partisan. In 1944, during the German retreat up the Italian peninsula, G
62 ANCFlyer : I understand the analogy and I see your point. I hope the folks we're dealing with in Afghanistan and Iraq can see the difference between our "SS Troo
63 Flybyguy : Torture, as dreadful as it sounds is necessary for the extraction of information from an enemy with resolve. Clandestine operations are also necessary
64 MD11Engineer : so what does a terrorist look like? Will you arrest and shoot everybody wearing a beard, purely preemptively, of course? Or, refering to the other thr
65 ANCFlyer : Here, here . . . Ditto . . . That said, I would also hope our European counterparts, as I said in posts above, don't believe it's just the US of A in
66 Klaus : It looks as if we´re not far apart on the substance of the matter. One of the many problems appears to be that there have been reports of a negative
67 MD11Engineer : The war against the communist terrorists in the 1970s-80s was won in Europe BECAUSE we stuck to the rules, and didn´t change into police states with
68 Post contains images ANCFlyer : That thought crossed my mind . . . Undisciplined little SOB . . . Klaus, I'm convinced, beyond any doubt, as I said in the threads relating to Abu Gh
69 JGPH1A : The "extensive experience" was mostly in the form of financing them. Saddam Hussein ? Al-Quaeda ? Sandanistas ? UNITA ? All bought and paid for by th
70 ANCFlyer : Won't dispute that at all. Now can you convince me the French Government has no similar operation and doesn't do the same. . . .if you try I'll raise
71 MD11Engineer : Actually we´ve got a big problem with the Albainian Mafia in Germany and other European countries. Albanian independence groups, closely connected to
72 JGPH1A : I have no evidence either way, but I'm sure if they did we'd know about it. The French media have an astonishing ability to weed out this sort of stu
73 Scorpio : Newsflash: That's what terrorists have been like for decades, no make that centuries. I know that the USA only came to terms with that fact a few yea
74 Klaus : ANCFlyer: Klaus, I'm convinced, beyond any doubt, as I said in the threads relating to Abu Ghriab, the young soldiers in that incident were simply fal
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