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US - India Relations Reach New Low Over Visa Issue  
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

The Indian Government has expressed its displeasure in very strong language over the decision of the US State Department to deny a visa to Narendra Modi, Chief Minister of Gujarat state who was due to visit the United States in the upcoming week.

The United States State Department issued a statement explaining that Modi had been denied a diplomatic visa and that his existing business visa had been revoked because they believed his democratically elected government in Gujarat state should be classified as a "repressive and dictatorial regime", invoking the rarely used Section 214 of the immigration code holding Modi personally responsible for "severe violations of religious freedom" during the 2002 riots in Gujarat.

The US claims to have based this decision on the findings of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) in a report from May 2002. The NHRC however issued a statement that denied ever having named Modi as responsible for the riots; "No individual had been personally held responsible for the riots by the Commission."

The normally reserved Prime Minister Manmohan Singh used unusually strong language when he stated that "Our government has clearly pointed out our very deep concern and regret over the US decision to deny a visa to a constitutionally elected chief minister of a state of our union. I have instructed our external affairs ministry to call on the US ambassador and explain to them that we are greatly concerned and we greatly regret the decision that has been taken by the United States government. We have called for the urgent reconsideration of this decision. We do not believe that it is appropriate for the United States to use allegations or anything less than due legal process to make a subjective judgement to question the constitutional authority in India."

Chief Ministers of 5 other states in India issued a far more damning joint statement calling the US action "a slur on our Constitution, legal systems, democracy and the entire Indian diaspora worldwide". The added that "Denying (Modi) a visa is an act of diplomatic discourtesy of an unprecedented and most indefensible kind. There can be no place for such insolence in the relationship between any two countries, least of all between two democracies."

The leader of the BJP opposition in the Rajya Sabha went one step further when he declared that "We hold the US administration guilty of embittering the relations between the friendly people of India and America. The US government's action must be seen in the overall context of the vile, vicious and sustained propaganda carried on... to besmirch the image of India globally."

The Prime Minister's office also issued a statement that declared "We have observed that this uncalled for decision (can) be traced to a lack of sensitivity and due courtesy to an elected authority."

Modi himself said that "This is an insult to the Constitution of India and its people and a threat to the sovereignty and democratic traditions of the country".

Other Indian organisations issued statements that condemned the US hypocrisy in categorising Modi, the elected leader of a constitutionally secular government (albeit a self-proclaimed proponent of Hindu nationalism) as being an opponent of religious freedom while the US continues to support and encourage visits to the United States by Saudi Arabian leaders who demonstrate far less religious tolerance.

After huge public outcry and a large peaceful demonstration outside the US Embassy in Delhi, the Embassy issued a statement that it would "forward (the request) to the State Department to be re-assessed".

97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

And where is Condi Rice at the moment? Entertaining our pissed off European friends or still trying to get Japan to buy American beef?

She and Dubya need to apologize - get the Diplomatic Visa issued - and then deal with the third or fourth level moron at State that made a stupid decision.


User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

What a mess... now he can't attend the Asian-American Hotel Owners conference in New York.  

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
get the Diplomatic Visa issued

A diplomatic visa for attending a trade fair?

[Edited 2005-03-19 16:19:56]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting N5176Y (Reply 2):
A diplomatic visa for attending a trade fair?

That is the visa that was applied for and denied, and reading the original post, again, they should reinstate the business visa . . .


User currently offlineHimmat01 From India, joined Dec 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

One cannot the blame the US state department. Even the Indian Supreme Court has described Modi as the "Nero of our times". NGOs in India have denounced his regime. Legal cases have been transferred to Maharashtra from Gujrat because the Supreme Court believes that trials in Gujrat maynot be free of prejudice.


An airplane might disappoint any pilot but it'll never surprise a good one.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Seems that there are two sides to this story.


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

She and Dubya need to apologize - get the Diplomatic Visa issued - and then deal with the third or fourth level moron at State that made a stupid decision.

They absolutely do not.
I laud both Ms Rice and President Bush.

The State department was perfectly within its right to deny Mr Modi a US visa. Back in the 90s the State department denied Jorge Haider, the ultra-right wing leader of Austria, a US visa under the same provision. At least Mr Haider was not an elected leader who sat by while thousands of his citizens were slaughtered under his watch.

Modi himself said that "This is an insult to the Constitution of India and its people and a threat to the sovereignty and democratic traditions of the country".

The reprehensible Mr Modi is not India, and India is not Mr Modi.
Both he and his followers should learn that simple fact.
A US visa is also NOT a basic right for a foreign national. It is entirely a discretionary act based on the laws and principles of the United States, principles and laws that Mr Modi is in clear violation of. He will never get a fair trial in India given his influence, but that doesn't mean that our government cannot express displeasure at his behaviour.

while the US continues to support and encourage visits to the United States by Saudi Arabian leaders who demonstrate far less religious tolerance.

Mr Modi is just a chief minister of a state, a state that depends on the United States in more ways than one (investments, foreign exchange repatriations, and immigration). He is NOT a member of the federal government in India. The US has denied visas to members of ultra right wing Wahabbi sects in Saudi Arabia. This is not merely religious freedom. This is an issue of a pogrom in Gujarat in which 2000 people were brutally slaughtered. Wretched as the Saudis may be, when was the last time 2000 Saudi citizens were massacred in 2 days of state sanctioned pogroms? Indian politicians and nationalist apologists should go back to the drawing board before they condemn the US under such losuy analogies. And if they're so incensed by Saudi Arabia, then India should suspend all foreign relations with the Saudis. Lets see if India has the guts to do that.

Our policies may not be perfect, but in this case the State department got it right. I hope that Condi Rice does NOT buckle under pressure from a thug who is using this visa denial to rally his followers and claim instant martyrdom. Both India - and Mr Modi's followers - are better off learning the hard fact that India needs the US and its massive capital outlays to India far more than it needs the brayings of a self-aggrandizing politician.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
I hope that Condi Rice does NOT buckle under pressure from a thug...

She's been working for one so I guess she knows what to expect. devil 


User currently offlineNetdhaka From Bangladesh, joined Feb 2004, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

The reason for denial of visa is right. My understanding is the US is a strong enough country to stand by its decision without ANY ramifications what so ever. So, it will be interesting to see if they do stand by or not.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

She's been working for one so I guess she knows what to expect.

Dubya may be a lot of things, but a thug he aint (and I am not one of these people who either voted for him, or who beats his drum).

So criticize the trumped up reasons to go to war with Iraq all you want, but as far as I know, Dubya never sat by as Governor of Texas while 2000 Texans were murdered, nor would he.

But in the end, the denial of a visa to a foreign national is a purely local matter. The US can deny a visa to who-so-ever it deems unworthy of one.

[Edited 2005-03-19 18:39:45]

User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

Quoting N5176Y (Reply 2):
What a mess... now he can't attend the Asian-American Hotel Owners conference in New York.

ROFL! His last name is Modi, not Patel!

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 7):
She's been working for one so I guess she knows what to expect.

He he! That's a classic!


User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
. This is an issue of a pogrom in Gujarat in which 2000 people were brutally slaughtered.

Care to explain what happened? I don't really know about this incident.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting B747-437B (Thread starter):
Modi himself said that "This is an insult to the Constitution of India and its people and a threat to the sovereignty and democratic traditions of the country".

What the eff ever!  crazy 

Quoting Netdhaka (Reply 8):
The reason for denial of visa is right.

Now does that matter? Why should any country be obligated to allow anyone to swan in whenever they feel like it?

I don't know if reactions are similar in other countries, but I've always found it curious how in India people 'protest' everytime a country changes visa regulations and ups requirements. As if we have some sort of God-given right.

Any country should be able to deny anyone from entering and not have to give a reason.

I'd have the same reaction if Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela were denied entry into any other country. Tough. Deal with it.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 9):
Dubya never sat by as Governor of Texas while 2000 Texans were murdered

So how many death sentences was it actually ? I forget...


User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2484 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
So how many death sentences was it actually ? I forget...

131 death sentences. As ordered by a court of law and jury of the convicted's peers.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2484 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 13):
So how many death sentences was it actually ? I forget...

That's different isn't it? Supposedly it's a Texas Tenet, so it's okay.


User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 15):
That's different isn't it? Supposedly it's a Texas Tenet, so it's okay.

Not OK... but how is what Bush did (or didn't do) any different that what the Indians and the French did (or didn't do) while 700,000 had their necks slit in Darfur?


User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2476 times:

Meanwhile... Hindu nationalists set fire to Pepsi warehouse to protest.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...ty/news/consumer_news/11180680.htm


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting N5176Y (Reply 16):
Not OK... but how is what Bush did (or didn't do) any different that what the Indians and the French did (or didn't do) while 700,000 had their necks slit in Darfur?

It's not; that was meant to be funny!

I don't know anything about Darfur to be able to say anything about it, but, unlike a few ANetters, I'm not even remotely condoning what happened in India. It was a national disgrace. That man should be drawn and quartered, metaphorically speaking.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2465 times:

Much like Manmohan Singh (who is no supporter of Narendra Modi during normal times), my disagreement is less with what the US did than how they went about doing it.

The best statement on the issue came from the Indian Express and pretty much sums up my feelings.

Quote:
When Narendra Modi talks democracy and human rights, even ‘‘violation of judicial norms’’ and ‘‘religious freedom’’, and he gets away with it, you know the plot has gone terribly astray somewhere. The US government accomplished a marvellous feat on Friday. It denied the Gujarat chief minister a diplomatic visa and revoked an already granted tourist visa, for being a government official who was ‘‘responsible for or directly carried out, at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom’’.

In the process, it allowed Modi not only to affect the genuine outrage of the persecuted but also to legitimately divert the spotlight from his own earned notoriety to US hypocrisies on issues of religious freedom.

The US would have done far better to let Modi travel to the country and then face protest groups and demonstrations of the kind that so embarrassingly greeted him in the UK not very long ago, instead of gifting him this opportunity to pose as martyr.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6769 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2463 times:

I wonder if the US would protest if a US State Governor is refused a visa to go to a country... If so then well, cry foul... if not then Modi should shut up.. perhaps? Hell I dunno! We got enough problems ourselves here... :P

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2459 times:

So how many death sentences was it actually ? I forget...

Too many.

But here in the United States, whether our more urbane European friends like it or not, the death penalty IS legal as declared by the Supreme Court back in the 1970s.

There is a big difference between signing the death penalty for convicted murderers judged guilty by a Court of Law and sanctioning the slaughter of 2000 perfectly innocent men, women and children who were butchered in public in the worst manner possible. India too has the death penalty; India does not, however, have an extra-judicial system that allows political hooligans to engage in mass murder.

GWB is not a paragon of virtue, and our system of jurisprudence as it applies to the death penalty is far from perfect. But GWB is not the mastermind of state pogroms, as Mr Modi is. Don't compare apples and oranges here.

If India is so outraged at this denial of a US visa, they can protest by boycotting the US, its airlines, its products, its capital outlays, and its technologies. Mr Modi's supporters can all walk up to the US embassy and consulates in India and give up their own US visas in protest. Something tells me that none of these hypocrites will.


User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2455 times:

It appears US thought except BJP all political parties will welcome the decision to revoke the visa. But surprisingly, every political party even Modi's bitter rivals in Communist, Congress parties are backing Modi and opposing the visa denial! Did some babu in US DOS underestimate India's democratic setup?

User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2453 times:

Ha ha! So Modi thinks he's blessed with sainthood? The irony is delicious!

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2450 times:

The US would have done far better to let Modi travel to the country and then face protest groups and demonstrations of the kind that so embarrassingly greeted him in the UK not very long ago, instead of gifting him this opportunity to pose as martyr.

Perhaps, Sean.

But all the protests in the world don't deter people like Modi.

As long as his adoring Gujju fans in the US and India treat him like a demi-God and continue to ply him with money, why should he care if some human rights organizations make noisy protests outside his swanky Hotel in NYC?


25 Post contains links MD11Engineer : They are refering to a mass killing of Muslims by Hindu radicals, who are core voters of Mr. Modi´s Hindu radical party BJP. From wikipedia: " In 20
26 B747-437B : While the shameless people like Modi will probably never see the folly of their ways, there are plenty of decent people who unwittingly associate wit
27 TRVYYZ : Indian Govt. is spoiling it's relation with the US for Modi, it's so pathetic. What is India going to gain by getting a visa for that guy? Indian govt
28 Jasepl : Still, it's reassuring - in some weird, twisted way - to see the Government stand up for someone in Opposition. Kind of like 'Sure he's a bastard, but
29 Mdsh00 : Im Gujju and I think Modi is an idiot. My family doesn't think too well of him either. I'm glad that his Visa was denied.
30 Jasepl : Yes, quite. We aren't all adoring fans!
31 Post contains images Gamps : Indian Govt. is spoiling it's relation with the US for Modi, it's so pathetic. I think Indian govt is upset more because of how "Note verbale" which
32 Mrniji : I actually agree and applaud with the decision of teh State Department. For maybe the first time, they referred to a document, which was produced in I
33 B747-437B : Exactly. Given a choice, I'm quite certain that at least half the cabinet would have voted to deny Modi a visa too. That does not change the fact tha
34 Jaysit : This US policy of disassociation hasn't worked with Cuba, it hasn't worked with North Korea and it hasn't worked with Iran - why would it work with Gu
35 Jaysit : "We do not believe that it is appropriate for the United States to use allegations or anything less than due legal process to make a subjective judgem
36 Banco : Just a question here, Jaysit. Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have no difficulty getting visas to the US. Obviously, theirs aren't diplomatic ones,
37 N5176Y : Citizens of Ireland and Great Britain don't need visas to travel to the United States.
38 Banco : You do from Northern Ireland. It isn't part of the visa waiver scheme.
39 Post contains images N5176Y : Really? United Kingdom includes Great Britain and Northern Ireland and all citizens of the United Kingdom are exempt. Wow. You learn something every
40 MD11Engineer : BTW, is this Mr. Modi the same Mr. Modi who ripped off Lufthansa with "Modiluft" ten years ago? Jan
41 Jasepl : LOL! Not at all Jan... No connection at all.
42 Post contains images Mrniji : !!! Great comment, and sad at the same time I agree.. I was so disappointed that President's rule has not been imposed in Gujrat yet in ordet to proc
43 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Not selling Iran Air pax aircraft will sure bring down the government...   The only one who really suffers from this situation is ordinary Iranian
44 Jasepl : Thete's no point in doing that now, is there? It should have been done at the time of the pogrom. Of course, his party was in power in Delhi then, an
45 Mrniji : I agree.. but some of the faschists at the center did prevent that, hence even a later point of time would have been OK.. after the release of the NH
46 Nimish : If the US was so disgusted with the 2002 Gujarat incidents, did they do anything at that time to express their displeasure? I'm surprised that they wo
47 Yu138086 : I really dont feel this is such a pressing issue that will disrupt/impede the strong trade flows between the two countries. Is this minister a populis
48 TRVYYZ : I still don't understand what the US has done wrong. They denied visa to an insane man, they cannot entertain guys with such a background, they don't
49 Jaysit : It's certainly interesting that the US seems to have no problem selling Boeings or even the most advanced Abramses to equally backward Saudi Arabia. N
50 Post contains images Jasepl : Apparently the Hindu Hriday Samrat is now going to address the meetings via satellite.
51 Yyz717 : The PRIMARY issue here (yet unaddressed in this thread) is why does the Chief Minister for Gujarat need to travel to the US? To my knowledge, the main
52 HAWK21M : Invited by one of the Biggest Immigrint communities in the US The Gujraties. Stop watching Fox news.Get realistic. regds MEL
53 Yyz717 : The Gujarats are a tiny immigrant group. Anyway, doesn't he have enough on his hands solving Gujarat's problems at home? Like I said, this trip was j
54 B747-437B : Perhaps the reason you never watched it was that Canada's CRTC found fit to CENSOR Fox News by BANNING it from Canada until just a few weeks ago. Thi
55 Yyz717 : There's too much TV watching anyway. Indeed. Terrorists that immigrated here from India, don't forget. Naw, I'd rather take pot shots at the horrendo
56 Ussherd : Quoting Banco (Reply 38): You do from Northern Ireland. It isn't part of the visa waiver scheme. Correction: Citizens with the unrestricted right of p
57 Mrniji : No, this is not true. They consist the biggest part of the Diaspora. The visit of Mody - though I hate him - can easily be justified as Patels and al
58 Post contains images Yyz717 : Well, he has his hands full dealing with poverty and over-population at home. In this age of globalization, he can contact the lucky Diaspora by tele
59 Post contains images Mrniji : Of course.. killing 10K people, great.. same with the Red Indians.. thanks the white man came.. they brought them education, money, diseases and alco
60 Gamps : Some facts: Even Modi's critics agree that he is a good administrator. Bureaucracy fears him as he is a people man who takes decision cutting through
61 Post contains images Mrniji : They have indeed denied the reconsideration.. thanks! Let me quote and reemphasize that.. Does anyone have a pic and can post it here.. I wanna see t
62 Jaysit : Until you do, you remain an ethnically monogomous country Over 1000 ethnic groups, virtually all racial groups, and all religions are represented in I
63 Mdsh00 : Far from the truth. Maybe you don't see it since you have so many Sikhs in Canada but all the other posters are right. Of the Indian diaspora in the
64 Yyz717 : All are East Indians. Brown-skinned caucasions. Effectively one ethnic group. No white, Chinese, Arab or black minorities. Prosperous? Perhaps by Ind
65 Post contains links Mdsh00 : Sorry. I've never heard that happening where my family is from. Care to tell me your source? I don't throw out the "racism" word that easily, but eve
66 Jaysit : All are East Indians. Brown-skinned caucasions. Effectively one ethnic group. No white, Chinese, Arab or black minorities. Garbage. Virtually all of E
67 B747-437B : As the Indian descendant of Portuguese missionaries on my dad's side and Persian Parsis on my mother's, I think I'm a living example of where you are
68 Yyz717 : Sean, it's all about relative size. All Western nations now have sizeable visible minorities exceeding 10% of the white population. In the case of th
69 Yyz717 : Anyway, there is an excellent survey of India's economy in the March 5-11 issue of the Economist. A detailed comparison against China is provided. Bot
70 Karan69 : Oh please, your "west" [DL/UA/US to name a few]carriers speak very differently about the word "success" Most so called Westeners are decendants of Eu
71 B747-437B : Following his snub by the United States, Narendra Modi will now travel to the UK instead on March 26 to participate in the "Gujarat Day" celebrations
72 Jasepl : I guess not enough Britons seem him in the same light. Which is fine. I wish though the noxious bastard were eliminated from here.
73 Yyz717 : I'm not disputing that some IT/software co's are establishing operations in India, but when The Economist reports that its positive impact on the Ind
74 B747-437B : Having read the same special feature on India and China in The Economist that you did, I can assure you that there were many differing viewpoints pre
75 TKMCE : Well , all I can say is if US had applied the same standards to Noreiga, Marcos and innumerable others as they have done to Modi, then the world would
76 Post contains images HAWK21M : I wonder if NM would be keen on meeting US company personnel keen in Gujrat investments in future regds MEL
77 Yyz717 : Which model is preferable, which is more sustainable and which makes acceptable tradeoffs is a subjective issue and one that the policymakers in India
78 Travelin man : I'm not sure how this thread devolved into a discussion regarding India's economics, but I'd like to point out something regarding the visa denial. Th
79 Post contains images Yyz717 : This guy sounds like he is not even respected/admired by most Indians He was democratically elected by the Gujarati people. Although I cannot speak to
80 TKMCE : I suggest you brush up on your world political history (not the United states government version). You may wish to reconsider your statement about th
81 Yyz717 : Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 71): . Ultimately, Noriega, Marcos and Modi are local products, not US exports. I suggest you brush up on your world political h
82 HAWK21M : Man has advised NM to shelf his UK trip too. regds MEL
83 TKMCE : Thank you. I accepted your suggestion and found among many others......... Hiroshima + Nagasaki Korea Bay of Pigs The "law and order problem" in Viet
84 TKMCE : Hi Mel Just to clarify my previous post is intended for the anetter from the land of maple syrup posting in reply 75. Dont know how your name came in
85 Post contains images HAWK21M : No probs Rajeev.....I was wondering the Same regds MEL
86 Jaysit : India should be using its political capital to protest Bush's sale of F-16s to Pakistan, and the BS argument used by the US that these F-16s will be u
87 Yyz717 : I thought the F-16 sale was denied? Has this been reversed? Will Pakistan be getting F-16's now? If so, that is not good.
88 Post contains images HAWK21M : Well India Lets go shopping for some Military Hardware soon. regds MEL
89 Atmx2000 : Of course it really doesn't matter since right to vote in Iran doesn't really seem to mean you can vote for substantial changes even when you have a
90 Mdsh00 : My understanding is that even though Pakistan is getting F-16s, India is recieving F-18s and other assistance with missle technology.
91 L410Turbolet : Oh, this is just great! Bush administration arming a dictator (a US-friendly one so he's allowed to play with nukes) against democratic India. These R
92 HAWK21M : Also heard the F16s offered to pak are older versions,compared to the F16s offered to India. I think India should pick a few,but still purchase other
93 MD11Engineer : L410, If you look at Pakistan´s attempts in democracy for the last 20 years, you´ll find that all elected politicians turned hopelessly corrupt with
94 Jaysit : If you look at Pakistan´s attempts in democracy for the last 20 years, you´ll find that all elected politicians turned hopelessly corrupt within a a
95 Post contains links and images Mdsh00 : View Large View MediumPhoto © Robert M Rossman View Large View MediumPhoto © Torin Wilson The first one is the F-18. Both are good jets and
96 Atmx2000 : The F-18 had its origins in the same 70s lightweight fighter program/competition as the F-16. The Navy rejected the Air Force's choice of the F16 and
97 HAWK21M : Interesting.Maybe the Mig21s can be replaced by a Few F18s.But keep the purchase of other Equipment going.To avoid getting stuck with sanctions. regds
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