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Canadians Face Long Waits For Health Care  
User currently offlineN5176Y From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1842 times:

First, before you go any further, let me put on my flamesuit. I have a feeling this one is gonna erupt.



Alright, now that we're all set:




Canadians Face Long Waits for Health Care


TORONTO -- A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.

"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.
...
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system..........
The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...2&topic_id=1326011&mesg_id=1326011

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1830 times:

And in other news, Americans will die today because they can't afford proper medical insurance. Several will also declare bankrupcy because they can't afford their medical bills.

Why bother bringing it up? Canadians will admit that their system isn't perfect. Nor is ours. Just let it go!

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

They also have to export many of their patients to the US, there was a big stink in Toronto about patients needing MRI's ending up in Rochester to get them done.

Having read some of the Canadian papers, it seems that many of them are butt blind to the problems that their health care system has. Lack of staff, lack of available services, lack of facilities, forced mediocraty of care.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 1):
Americans will die today because they can't afford proper medical insurance

B.S. Any American can walk into any hospital ER and cannot be turned away for cost.

Strike that.

Any person can walk into any hospital ER and cannot be turned away, that is why a lot of small hospitals down on the US Mexico border are being forced to close because all the illegals show up there and then skip out on the bill.

For those of you who think that the US should have a nationalized system, I would point out that the US government allready runs two such systems. The VA system for Veterns and the Indian Health care system for Native Americans. Neither are models for quality of care or service.

When those two systems or either of them are models of patient care, then maybe we can talk about a single national system.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3611 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

Any American can get free medical care.

Hell, my grandparents aren't even citizens and they've had free medical care for 20 years. You just have to look for the right places and apply for the correct programs.

Anyone that dies because they can't afford medical care in America deserves it.


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
B.S. Any American can walk into any hospital ER and cannot be turned away for cost.

No, not BS. Yes, you can walk into an ER and not be turned away from medical care, but don't oversimplify it. If it were that easy why would anyone in their right mind pay for medical insurance.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 3):

Anyone that dies because they can't afford medical care in America deserves it.

What a naïve view of things you have. No one deserves to die because they can't afford proper medical insurance. Heaven forbid the day you're no longer under your parents' umbrella and you find yourself without insurance.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineLAS757300 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):
The VA system for Veterns and the Indian Health care system for Native Americans. Neither are models for quality of care or service.

That's complete horse shit. The New England Journal of Medicine published a study comparing the VA to the Medicare system. Each system was evaluated based on eleven criteria. The VA cleaned the Medicare system's clock on every single criterion. Another study from a different medical journal compared the VA's ability to treat diabetes to the care received by patients under private managed care. The VA provided better care in seven out of seven areas evaluated. The VA even outperformed major hospitals like the Mayo Clinic in evaluating illness and prescribing treatment to heart patients. All this was done at a lower comparitive cost than the Medicare program

Notice to rightwingers: know your shit before opening your ignorant traps.

[Edited 2005-03-21 07:10:38]


KMSP
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

This isn't really big news, atleast here in Canada. Yes, our system isn't perfect and waiting times are part of that imperfection, but overall their hasn't been a huge cry for major reform into a private or quasi-private system. Although dated (2001), and I will try to find more up to date data, a majority of Canadians are satisfied with their health care and more than six out of ten are opposed to privitization.
http://www.legerleger.com/documents/spclm/010709eng.pdf
Canadians routinely rate health care as a high priority for the government.

Anyhow, the problem is known and it IS being worked on. The federal government and the provinces signed a 10 year health care deal in September which will see an additional 41 billion put into health care over the next 10 years. Additionally, more emphasis is being put on wait times and getting them down at the provincial level.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...l/2004/09/16/healthdeal040916.html


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3611 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting LH423 (Reply 4):
What a naïve view of things you have. No one deserves to die because they can't afford proper medical insurance. Heaven forbid the day you're no longer under your parents' umbrella and you find yourself without insurance

I'm just going by what I've seen.

Here's an example:
My grandparents are not US citizens. They only have green cards. So far, between them they have had double hip replacements, double knee replacements, cataract surgery, numerous hospitalizations for illnesses, and a cornea transplant. They applied for Tencare and got it. They had to pay a miniscule amount, if anything, for their treatments thus far.

They also have no private health insurance. So, if my grandparents that aren't even citizens can get all that stuff for free, why do we have others "dying on the streets?"


User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

Because being a permanent resident entitles you to that. That's great that they get all that. It's good to see that the system does work for some. But that's probably due mostly to the fact that they QUALIFY for such care. Again, if it were that easy as filling out some forms, why would we have 40 million people without health insurance? Because, the vast majority of them can't qualify for these programs. I assure you that if you're an able-bodied, able-minded individual in good health and no debilitating mental diseases, you will be denied for state-assisted health insurance.

Again, I'm not saying the Canadian system is perfect. I just will never understand why Canadians can admit that while Americans rip it to shreds and never look at the fact that our system isn't perfect either.

Right now I'm not in school so I'm not eligible to be under my parents insurance as I'm too old. If it weren't for the fact that I get insurance through my job, I'd be a 22 year old without insurance. I'm sorry if I just find that to be wrong. Almost other industrialized country sees healthcare as a basic human right. I'm facinated at the fact that the USA grew up with these countries and they all chose that route, yet the US somehow went another. The argument of who's right and who's wrong is futile. Everyone will not agree on it. I'd just like to know why the US went this way and continues to think the rest of the world is nuts, yet we're in the clear minority.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

Quoting LH423 (Reply 8):
If it weren't for the fact that I get insurance through my job, I'd be a 22 year old without insurance.

And who's fault is that? LH423, Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay for YOUR insurance? I believe that abled-bodied grown men should pay for their own insurance. There appears to be choice between a system where most people are insured with quality healthcare or a system where everybody is insured with poor healthcare. Ideally we would like everyone to be insured with quality healthcare. In a non-socialist country like the United States, our society is not going to tolerate taxpayers paying for the poor's healthcare. I think a good comprise would be to allow low-income people a discount on insurance premiums. Of course the discount would have to be subsidized by tax dollars.



Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently offlineMCIrunway From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1671 times:

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 3):
Anyone that dies because they can't afford medical care in America deserves it.

Why is it that those who are against more socialized healthcare become bitter when the subject is raised? Honestly, this temperament surfaces so frequently. Why are you threatened by these ideas? In case you haven't noticed, YOU (and I'm speaking about conservatives now, not ArmitageShanks) have the upper hand. YOU have control of the country. It's your conservative president in power. The private health system you love so much is the one we all have the joy of participating in.

My point is, I don't know why conservatives get so upset. I can't even imagine the sheer amount of bitching that would take place if things weren't going so well for them.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 9):
I believe that abled-bodied grown men should pay for their own insurance.

Do you know how much a month of health insurance REALLY costs? My employer pays $425 a month to cover my fairly healthy body. I pay 10% of that and a $20 copay on each office visit and each prescription. If I had a significant past medical history or chronic problem it would be a lot more. If I had a job that didn't offer insurance, I couldn't afford it. If I didn't have a job and wasn't poor enough to get Medical Assistance through the government, it would cost about $600 a month. The reason why it's more? Unemployed people aren't historically or statisically as healthy as employed people. Now if you had a family, insurance costs a few hundred percent more. Sometimes parents with jobs can only afford to insure their kids because the copay and "employee contribution" is more than they can afford. Sometimes they selfishly insure themselves and not their kids.

That's why there are so many uninsured people, especially families.

Mark, RN

[Edit: spelling]

[Edited 2005-03-23 01:29:07]

User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Comparing the US and Canadian health care systems is a matter of ideology more than anything. It is well known based on many studies from different sources, that the US system is no better than the Canadian system from a number of criteria, and on top of that, the US system is FAR more expensive. I read recently that GM alone pays $5 BILLION in health insurance for ... get this .... RETIRED GM workers! For those who say they don't want their taxes paying for the poor, blah blah blah, it comes out of your pockets one way or another. And if your system is considerably more expensive, then more money is coming out of your pockets, whether you see it or not.

I echo Skyservice_330's sentiments. The Canadian system has problems, and people realize it, but it seems that measures are being taken to rectify these.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Need an appointment in Canada to get a gynecological exam? See you in three months. Need a heart bypass? See you in 18 weeks. At one point, more than 5,500 kids were waiting for surgery at Montreal's pediatric hospitals.

http://www.ncpa.org/ea/eajf93/eajf93r.html



Out of three hundred nurses and doctors, 44% of doctors and 49% of nurses felt patients in their care worsened as they waited for treatment.

Ask William Watts, a 76 year old man living in Toronto. He died in 1989 after his heart surgery was delayed seven times because no bed was available.

 twocents 
AAndrew


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

Anyone here in college?

If so, have you ever used the Campus health facilities? That is what socialized medicine would be like. I went in a few weeks ago with a killer cold. I was able to see a nurse that day, she informed me it would be 2 weeks before I could see a doctor.

If I had not sought outside care within the next few days who knows how much school I would have missed and how miserable I would have been for those 2 weeks just to get a lousy antibiotic prescription.

A big part of the reason we have an insurance crisis in this country is the way people use it. Making your insurance pay for a $60 office visit that you can afford yourself is like expecting your car insurance to pay for an oil change. If everyone expected their car insurance to pay for maintenance and routine repairs on their car nobody would be able to afford car insurance. Also, car insurance would become unaffordable if someone sued their mechanic every time they were told their 20 year old, 500,000mi car was beyond help.


User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

Quoting LH423 (Reply 1):
Americans will die today because they can't afford proper medical insurance

B.S. Any American can walk into any hospital ER and cannot be turned away for cost.

Strike that.


And then they'll either get sued or hoboed becuase of the costs .... hahaha. Sure the Canadian system has problems but at least we have a system, Suckers! *laughs at americans and their "system"*



Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

As Aa757first has pointed out Americans have access ... as long as you have the money to pay for it. As well, the Fraser Institute although they are well-known and do produce some interesting reports, they are also probably the
most well-known think tank in Canada with a huge ideological bias.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 13):
Anyone here in college?

Yup, I am in my 2nd year. Been to health services three times this semester and always seen a doctor within 30mins of being there. It appears as if the problems you mentioned are an isolated problem at your college along or maybe others as well. It is hardly appropriate to generalize that to socialized health care.


User currently offlineCaptainGomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

One thing that is very important is that health care varies wildly in the United States. The Americans that you hear being happy with the service are from upper middle class and higher, and they have access to hospitals in wealthier areas. It is true that nobody will be turned away from getting treatment in the US, but either the patient pays, or they have insurance, or the hospital is forced to pay for them. This means hospitals in poorer areas have far less money for facilities and treatments.

There is no doubt, that the best treatment you can get in the USA is better than the best in Canada. It is also accessible to a small percentage of citizens. In Canada, all citizens have access to good health care, although improvements need to be made.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 8):
And who's fault is that? LH423, Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay for YOUR insurance?

It's no one's fault other than being a student with a part-time job barely making $16,000/year gross. It's certainly not my fault that I can't afford to pay for our ridiculously high insurance rates. Sure, I could drop out of school and work full time so I could afford insurance, but then you'd be up my ass because I'd be on food stamps. You can't have it both ways. Fact is, America is not a country hospitable to the less wealthy.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1546 times:

One thing that is very important is that health care varies wildly in the United States. The Americans that you hear being happy with the service are from upper middle class and higher, and they have access to hospitals in wealthier areas. It is true that nobody will be turned away from getting treatment in the US, but either the patient pays, or they have insurance, or the hospital is forced to pay for them. This means hospitals in poorer areas have far less money for facilities and treatments.

There is no doubt, that the best treatment you can get in the USA is better than the best in Canada. It is also accessible to a small percentage of citizens. In Canada, all citizens have access to good health care, although improvements need to be made.


Nuno, I dispute your comments (no offense, you know I respect your opinion). I lived in MEM and the public hospitals were fine. Easily as well equipped as any Cdn hospital from my odd visit. I would say MOST Americans have access to better health care than Cdns. Only the 15% or so without insurance do not.

Cdns do NOT have access to good health care. Access is also defined as short wait times. The waits for an MRI scan in any Cdn city can be months and months -- meanwhile that undetected brain tumour keeps growing.

The large number of Cdns seeking medical treatment in the US (there are hardly any Americans seeking it in Canada) and the large number of Cdn health care professionals moving to the US to work (very few American doctors come to Canada) suggests that the US system overall is in far better shape.

I'm really sick of all these myths in Canada spun by our left-wing media that our health care is better. It's not. Cdns are being misled.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

Interesting topic. I have one question to the folks that ask why they should pay for someone else's health insurance. With the same logic in mind, I have to ask why should bosses have to pay for their employees insurance? They are regular joes too, they have to keep the business running and have to turn in profits too.

So why is it ok for bosses to pay for your insurance but it's not ok for you to pay for someone else?


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1533 times:
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Quoting LAS757300 (Reply 4):
The VA even outperformed major hospitals like the Mayo Clinic in evaluating illness and prescribing treatment to heart patients

This from a guy who has probably never visited the average VA hospital nor considered the fact that evaluation and delivery of treatment are two different things.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 17):
It's no one's fault other than being a student with a part-time job barely making $16,000/year gross.

Well, the answer to that is to go out and get a full time job to support yourself while you go to school. You would certainly not be the first. If you are truly indigent then you can apply for the proper public assistance that is currently available.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1507 times:

Quoting Radarbeam (Reply 19):
So why is it ok for bosses to pay for your insurance but it's not ok for you to pay for someone else?

By the same logic, why does Continental pay for their employees air travel? Why does Google pay for their employees to go to the gym on their tab?

Its just part of the employee compensation program. Companies usually have disability, maternity, paternity, etc. Some companies also pay for life insurance, although AFAIK this for higher up positions. They don't have to pay for employee healthcare, unlike a socialist system where all taxpayers must pay for other citizen's health care.

AAndrew


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