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US Deserter Denied Refugee Status In Canada  
User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Recently it's been pretty quiet in this forum when it comes to the situation in Iraq. Hopefully this related story will get the ball rolling again

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/24/hinzman-050324.html

I wonder how much, if any, influence was exerted from the Prime Minister's Office. Martin seems to be keen to improve US relations, especially after opting out of BMD.


'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

I don't get it. The guy enlisted didn't he? What did he expect?

While I agree that it's an unfortunate situation for his family, I stand by the Canadian government's decision. (How often do you hear me say THAT?).

There are no grounds for refugee status in this case.

G


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1841 times:
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Hey, Yuki...you beat me to the punch here. I'll delete my other thread to work this one.

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/083/...adian_immigration_board_den:.shtml

Here is a relevant quote.
"We are an Army serving a nation at war,'' the Army said in a statement after Thursday's ruling. ''Each of us volunteered to serve, and the vast majority serve honorably. AWOL and desertion are crimes that go against Army values, degrade unit readiness and, in a time of war, may put the lives of other soldiers at risk.'"

THis guy volunteered and served three years. He deserves to go to Leavenworth for desertion.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Yukimizake - long time my friend - hope you're well . . .

From the Article: "Hinzman faces a court martial if he goes back and could be sentenced to five years in jail as a deserter . . . "

As it should be, he's a damn deserter, I don't care if he's in Canada or Uganda or Antarctica . . . he's a damn deserter . . . . period, dot, next, no option. Deserter, stay in Canada forever, if you come back to the states you WILL and should be prosecuted because you're a chicken shit . . . .


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

I would like to take a moment to thank the Canadian court system for having some common sense. Unlike draft-dodgers these guys where all-ready in the US military and volunteered for service.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
I would like to take a moment to thank the Canadian court system for having some common sense.

Thanks for noticing. It doesn't happen that often.

G


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 5):

Thanks for noticing. It doesn't happen that often

Hehehe,

I do still give the RCMP a line of crap over refusing to break the Matanuska blockade during the salmon wars.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Oh yeah...who could forget about Matanuska blockade???  sly 

But don't forget, the RCMP are not part of the court system. They are a police force.

G


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1771 times:

Still they draw their paychecks from the same government.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYukimizake From Japan, joined Mar 2004, 529 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

I kind of feel sorry for the guy, I can understand his issue with underlying premise of the war in Iraq and stuff, but I also think the Canadian Immigration & Review board got it right in their assessment that "Removal to the U.S. would not subject them personally to a risk to their lives or to a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment," It's not for us to answer for the repercussions of his desertion, in a case like this we have to respect the rules & regulations of our neighbors to the south.


'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

There is so much abuse of Canada's refugee system in which criminals, murderers and terrorists are able to claim refugee status, this guy was a model citizen in the making in comparison. Canada should have accepted him.

I realize that the US armed forces are volunteer, and he knew what he was getting into. However, I argue that when you join the US armed forces, you make an implied (or real) vow to fight for the US. Going to war in Iraq was NOT fighting for the US -- it was fighting a personal vendetta of George Bush. Iraq was never a threat to the US. Hence, the refugee claim was valid, to my mind.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

It would seem from the posts here that the notion of "conscientious objection" is not relevant once one has volunteered. This implies that soldiers are mercenaries, paid to fight whoever and whenever the government decides, with no moral stake in what they are being asked to accomplish. The decision by a soldier to serve his/her country is based on a wish to defend the ideals and principles for which that country supposedly stands. If as a volunteer, your government tells you to do something to which you have fundamental moral opposition, are you not in all good conscience, supposed to object ? What if (and this is a WHAT IF, I'm not saying or implying that this is or has ever been the case) the US Government ordered blanket bombing of the Sunni triangle, risking hundreds of thousands of civilian lives, because they were sick and tired of the insurgency and wanted to end the whole issue. I sincerely hope the good servicemen and women of the US would give serious thought to such an order, rather than carry it out like mindless automata.

Unfortunately with Iraq, the morality of US involvment is murky water, at least from many people's points of view, and simply saying "You volunteered so you HAVE to go and do whatever we tell you, regardless of how wrong you think this war is" is not tenable.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
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Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 11):
What if (and this is a WHAT IF, I'm not saying or implying that this is or has ever been the case) the US Government ordered blanket bombing of the Sunni triangle, risking hundreds of thousands of civilian lives, because they were sick and tired of the insurgency and wanted to end the whole issue. I sincerely hope the good servicemen and women of the US would give serious thought to such an order, rather than carry it out like mindless automata.

If orders were issued that violated the laws of land warfare the soldiers duty is to report this to the next level up the chain of command and/or the IG. They are also obliged, under the UCMJ (Universal Code of Military Justice) to not obey those orders. If this guy was serious he could have made his stand within the system and would not have been forced into combat. He would have been held with his unit until the system took him down the road to a general or dishonorable discharge following whatever action the courts martial prescribed. Then he would have retained his honor and dignity as well as having the opportunity to make a public point, rather than running away and basically abandoning his comrades with whom he had served for years.

Once a civilian has taken the oath and made the commitment to the services they are obliged to follow all lawful orders and serve out their stated commitments. This guy ran away.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
it was fighting a personal vendetta of George Bush.

Your personal opinion Yyz717 . . . that's all this is . . .

Quoting Yukimizake (Reply 9):
I kind of feel sorry for the guy,

I don't feel sorry for him at all, he ran away, he deserted, he fled his duty and his obligations as a man, no sorry feelings at all. Lock his ass up.

DL021 answered the questions regarding JGPH1As theoretical scenario quite sufficiently.

There are methods available this deserter could have used, while maintaining his integrity and dignity, to fight the system and continue his applications as a Conscientious Objecter (which in this case is bullshit by the by). Instead he chose to run out on his obligations, his country and his duty - tough - hope they hammer him, hard.


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
However, I argue that when you join the US armed forces, you make an implied (or real) vow to fight for the US. Going to war in Iraq was NOT fighting for the US -- it was fighting a personal vendetta of George Bush. Iraq was never a threat to the US. Hence, the refugee claim was valid, to my mind.

and that my freind is a decision to be made in a US court of law NOT a Canadian one.
He tried to abuse our system to duck his responsiblities as a soldier and a citizen of the US of A.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
There is so much abuse of Canada's refugee system in which criminals, murderers and terrorists are able to claim refugee status, this guy was a model citizen in the making in comparison. Canada should have accepted him.

While I certainly agree that our immigration process is constantly abused by criminals claiming refugee status, I don't agree that this guy should be granted entry to Canada because he's less of a criminal than others.

He is breaking the law in his home country...Period.
He KNEW the consequences when he enlisted; and he KNEW the consequences of his action when he decided to flee.

He made his bed. He has to lie in it.

G


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

I have to applaud Canada here. This person so clearly did not fit the 'conscientious objector' definition that he would have made things worse for those who went to Canada before volunteering for US military service.

Those who left rather than serve have made a choice based on their conscience. While I do not agree, I wish them well.

Those who joined the military, drew their pay, then didn't like it, and fled to Canada have nothing in common with the group above and should be treated differently.

We, the US and Canada, do not really have the option of deciding which laws we want to honor. Law is law. Deserting from the military is breaking the law as much as robbing a bank or selling drugs are.

It is not the place of individual citizens to cherry-pick the laws of their nation except as one voter. No matter one's opinion of current US policy in Iraq, or of its author, GWB, America still does have a system in place where the people can compel their government to change its ways. This is not a dictatorship, it is a free republic with a clunky but workable system of checks and balances. This unfortunate should be brought back here and face the consequences of his own misdeeds.

Thank you Canada.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCopper1 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 439 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Don't get too excited about any return of this individual to the USA. He has appeals available that can keep him here in Canada for years to come. My personal feeling is he should be back in the States by now, the decision was made and he should have been taken directly from the courthouse to the boarder and turned over to U.S authorities.

User currently offlineCanuckpaxguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

I would doubt that he has grounds for appeal. I'm fairly sure this issue has already made it to Parliament. If there was to be an appeal, we would have heard MPs shooting their mouths off by now.

G


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

He could go underground like so many others, then come forward when we have one of our periodic amnesties for illegals. This refugee claim denial should have no impact on his prospects for a long stay in Canada. I wish him well, and hope I can call him a fellow Canadian one day. He has alot of support among the 40k or so Viet Nam draft dodgers now resident in Canada. He will not want for a job or financial support for long.He speaks the language, he's intelligent, educated, articulate. He'll make a great Canadian.

There is a difference between defending your own country and acting as a paid mercenary for foreign ventures in places such as Somalia and Iraq. He volunteered for the former, not the latter. He should play up on this aspect in his coming humanitarian appeals.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
This refugee claim denial should have no impact on his prospects for a long stay in Canada. I wish him well, and hope I can call him a fellow Canadian one day. He has alot of support among the 40k or so Viet Nam draft dodgers now resident in Canada.

You folks there in Canada can keep them all - the Draft Dodger cowards and this clown as well . . .

He signed on the dotted line - it didn't specifiy where he'd go and what he'd do - so any excuse as you've provided above my friend, doesn't hold water. . . . . . .

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
There is a difference between defending your own country and acting as a paid mercenary for foreign ventures in places such as Somalia and Iraq. He volunteered for the former, not the latter. He should play up on this aspect in his coming humanitarian appeals.

He needs to be sent back to the states and prosecuted. Don't worry though, he won't spend more then a few years in Leavenworth . . . but likely in high security, even the military criminals there can't stand a deserter . . . that's the worst form of traitorous action.

Yyz717, we tend to agree more often than not on most issues . . .not this one my friend . . .


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 11):
It would seem from the posts here that the notion of "conscientious objection" is not relevant once one has volunteered.

I wouldn't say that but it is amazing how many guys decide that they are "Conscientious objectors" after the bullets start flying. I don't think that they should be able to use that.

There is a process to become one, a prosess this guy didn't follow.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
I wouldn't say that but it is amazing how many guys decide that they are "Conscientious objectors" after the bullets start flying. I don't think that they should be able to use that.

I do think they should be able to do that when they are not defending the US, but acting as a sitting-duck mercenary in Iraq. Iraq could have descended further into a black hell-hole under Saddam and the US would not have been threatened. As such, the Iraq war is a mercenary war that US soldiers should be free to opt out of.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Yyz717, we tend to agree more often than not on most issues . . .not this one my friend . . .

I know. I noticed. That's cool. Arguing can be fun.  Smile



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
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