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Why Can't The P.M. Be Head Of State?  
User currently offlineACAfan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 710 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1884 times:

USA being an exception, nearly ALL countries have a head of state and a separate head of government.

How does your country operate specifically?

In your country, which one is more powerful? Example: Iran's president has consderable power. India's president has none.

Wouldn't it be more effective to let the PM be head of state?

[Edited 2005-03-31 05:55:16]


Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

The Prime Minister is the head of state here...though many would say the real leader is GW Bush and Koizumi is his lapdog.  Wink

I'll probably get flamed for this but I can't see a reason why the PM shouldn't be the head of state if he/she is democratically elected. It would certainly be cheaper for the country involved.


User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1870 times:

It depends on what you mean by powerful. The Queen has a huge amount of constitutional power - in fact, we are talking borderline dictatorship if all her powers were fully used. However the Prime Minister holds considerable power with the public, setting the national agenda - and in Australia's case, over the entire parliament which now serves as a rubber stamp. Then there is the third wheel - the Governor General who has all the powers of the Queen.

It would be nice to have someone democratically elected to sit on top of the whole thing, but rome wasn't built in a day.

QFF


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 2):
The Queen has a huge amount of constitutional power - in fact, we are talking borderline dictatorship if all her powers were fully used.

 yawn 

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 2):
Then there is the third wheel - the Governor General who has all the powers of the Queen.

What utter drivel! The GG represents the Sovereign and isn't a third wheel in any way. Unless, of course, one conveniently sees it that way!  Wink

I think it's better to keep the positions of head of state and head of government separate and unequal.


User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 3):
What utter drivel! The GG represents the Sovereign and isn't a third wheel in any way. Unless, of course, one conveniently sees it that way!

Can you say Gough Whitlam?


User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Quoting Jasepl (Reply 3):
What utter drivel! The GG represents the Sovereign and isn't a third wheel in any way. Unless, of course, one conveniently sees it that way!

Um the reason why the Governor General didn't tell Whitlam in 75 that he was planning to sack him was because the GG feared the PM going directly to the Queen and firing him first. Call that representative? Situations like that turn into a "who can get to the Queen first" race to the finish line. Still don't think the GG is a third wheel?

QFF


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 789 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

What complicates the process is the fact the GG is chosen by the PM, is the Queen really going to deny his request?

User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
What complicates the process is the fact the GG is chosen by the PM, is the Queen really going to deny his request?

Could happen - especially if there is outrage in the Australian community at the Prime Ministers choice. The Queen could well refuse....

QFF


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 7):
Could happen - especially if there is outrage in the Australian community at the Prime Ministers choice. The Queen could well refuse....

Unlikely. The Queen couldn't consitutionally take public opinion into account. She'd go with the PM's request and i would be up to the Australian people to punish the PM at the polling station if they didn't like it.

Quoting ACAfan (Thread starter):
In your country, which one is more powerful? Example: Iran's president has consderable power. India's president has none.

Wouldn't it be more effective to let the PM be head of state?

The Prime Minister in Britain is infinitely more powerful. The Queen has virtually no power except . The Queen's ultimate role (apart from opening buildings) is to be the ultimate bulwark against dictatorship. Giving that role to the PM would be utterly catastrophic.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
The Queen has virtually no power except.

Isn't she the leader of the Bad Fashion Association also  Smile


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Quoting N228UA (Reply 9):
Isn't she the leader of the Bad Fashion Association also

I'm not sure 80 year old women are ever that trendy, are they? I mean, the thought of her in Kylie style gold hotpants....  Wow!



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 789 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
I mean, the thought of her in Kylie style gold hotpants....

Now that is an image I didn't need to have.  bomb 


User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
I'm not sure 80 year old women are ever that trendy, are they?

If you like purple hair, they are!


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting N228UA (Reply 12):
If you like purple hair, they are!

Now, why do they do that? What is it about women that they reach a certain age and suddenly think "I know, purple will look really good!"? When does that happen?



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2232 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting N228UA (Reply 1):
The Prime Minister is the head of state here

I thought it's the emperor...

Accoriding to CIA world factbook:
chief of state: Emperor AKIHITO (since 7 January 1989)
head of government: Prime Minister Junichiro KOIZUMI (since 26 April 2001)



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 14):
I thought it's the emperor...

Accoriding to CIA world factbook:
chief of state: Emperor AKIHITO (since 7 January 1989)
head of government: Prime Minister Junichiro KOIZUMI (since 26 April 2001)

After WWII, the Emperor was stripped of all power. Unlike the Queen of England, he has no control whatsoever over the government here.

Koizumi is the main man here


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting N228UA (Reply 15):
Unlike the Queen of England, he has no control whatsoever over the government here.

Er no. the Queen has no control over the government either. I'm with LY7E7, Akihito is Head of State, Koizumi is Head of Government. It's a constitutional monarchy. State visits occur when Akihito visits, not Koizumi. That's a Head of Government visit.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineN228UA From Japan, joined May 2004, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1812 times:

Fair call.

In Australia, the GG has the power to sack the PM. Here, that same rules don't apply.

So, in essence, Koizumi is the leader of Japan. God help us all  Sad


User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Unlikely. The Queen couldn't consitutionally take public opinion into account.

lol um, where exactly in the constitution does it say that the Queen can't take public opinion into account when making her decisions? It was my understanding that she would rule on a decision as her conscience dictated - and that she could be influenced by all manner of entities, including by the public.

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
She'd go with the PM's request and i would be up to the Australian people to punish the PM at the polling station if they didn't like it.

That is the most realistic eventuation. It is well within the realms of possibility that the Queen would refuse the Prime Minister's recommendation. It almost happened a few years ago when we were oh so very close to having a certain Senior Royal as our Vice-Regal representative.....

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Giving that role to the PM would be utterly catastrophic.

lol So a Royal lineage automatically precludes a person from becoming a tyrant? I think it's unfair to say that if someone doesn't grow up in a palace with a title then they are more likely to turn into an Adolph Hitler. It is because of the good grace of Parliamentarians AND the Queen that the UK is not a dictatorship. I think you'll find that history is dotted with tyrranical despots with a royal or imperial heritage.

QFF


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 18):
lol um, where exactly in the constitution does it say that the Queen can't take public opinion into account when making her decisions? It was my understanding that she would rule on a decision as her conscience dictated - and that she could be influenced by all manner of entities, including by the public

Ours or yours? I presume you mean yours.

It wouldn't. But we've been through this before. The Queen herself wouldn't make any decision, she would only act through her ministers or in your case the Governor-General. Now, if you want to say that the GG might act that way, fair enough. But the Queen wouldn't.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 18):
lol So a Royal lineage automatically precludes a person from becoming a tyrant? I think it's unfair to say that if someone doesn't grow up in a palace with a title then they are more likely to turn into an Adolph Hitler. It is because of the good grace of Parliamentarians AND the Queen that the UK is not a dictatorship. I think you'll find that history is dotted with tyrranical despots with a royal or imperial heritage.

You're not a stupid person, so don't say stupid things. It has nothing to do with the Queen per se it's to do with having a separation between Head of Government and Head of State under the UK system. I know a hell of a lot more about the UK system than you do, just as you know more about the Australian one than I. Don't put words in my mouth.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24810 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
I mean, the thought of her in Kylie style gold hotpants.... Wow!

Thanks for that Banco...  Yeah sure  old   old   censored 



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Now, if you want to say that the GG might act that way, fair enough. But the Queen wouldn't.

Yeah but you must admit that while she wouldn't, she could.

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
You're not a stupid person, so don't say stupid things. It has nothing to do with the Queen per se it's to do with having a separation between Head of Government and Head of State under the UK system.

Banco - flattery will get you everywhere. I know the point you were making, however dealing with an extraordinary hypothetical situation (where my thoughts seem to reside these days) - the good grace and acceptance of the status quo by the monarch, coupled with a belief that she should not and cannot use her powers - is what keeps the UK from sucumbing to a dictatorship at the hands of a maniacal P.M.
If the Queen was completely off her head - things could turn very very nasty, and she would soon lose her reputation as a figure of stability.
You see what I mean?

QFF


User currently offlineAirbusA346 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

Over here, its Bush 'n' Blair  highfive   couple   kiss 


LOL

Tom.



Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):
If the Queen was completely off her head - things could turn very very nasty, and she would soon lose her reputation as a figure of stability.
You see what I mean?

But that's precisely the point! There is always the risk of someone going off their head and doing daft things, that's why having the two separate is a bulwark! That's precisely why having the Head of Government and Head of State in one person would be stupid under the British system, because then there would be no failsafe if the PM went nuts.

NOW do you see what I'm getting at? If the Queen went berserk you have the PM/Parliament. If the PM went berserk you have the Queen. It's not about the rights and wrongs of the two, it's about them being separate entities.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

Actually I do not understand what the PM or Parliament could do if the Queen went bonkers.

QFF


25 Post contains images Banco : You mean genuinely? Well, the first thing to grasp is that the Queen is not Sovereign. She's a sovereign, but she is not sovereign herself. Parliamen
26 QANTASforever : lol - Witty of the old founding fathers of modern British government wasn't it! Thank you for the insight. One question though - could the Queen simpl
27 Banco : No, because it has to pass both Houses of Parliament. The ministers can't even do what they want, except through the format of a statutory instrument
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