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US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD  
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1419 posts, RR: 5
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

"US spy agencies were "dead wrong" in "almost all" of their judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) capability, a commission appointed by the US president said in a final report today."

Not really new news I suppose, but interesting none the less. Definately be interesting to see what the classified version has in it. I suppose a kudos to Bush is in order for setting up the commission to get to the bottom of this mess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1449363,00.html

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

10 to 1 it won't take long until someone basically says "Who cares, the war wasn't about WMDs anyway, stupid pinko-commie liberal Democrat terrorist-hugging  censored !"


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

What difference does this make?

Even if all the intelligence in the world had told Bush et al that Iraq had no WMDs, they would have twisted the information to make a case for war. The decision to invade Iraq was pre-determined based on ideological reasons.

Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.

You know, I really don't believe that - not quite. I do believe that Bush and Blair really did think there were WMD's there, and that they were a threat. They may well have convinced themselves of that, but the alternative, which is that they deliberately and purposely lied to the whole world in order to invade....no. I just don't see it, I really don't.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Whare is Osama Bin Laden?
Remember him?

That war in Iraq was one hell of a distraction.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

I have to second Banco.

At the same time I think one reason for going to war that did not make it to the public was to defeat Saddam Hussein to be able to pull American troops off from Saudi-Arabia.
Most members of the 9/11 clique came from Saudi-Arabia and the presence of foreign armed forces was a constant reason for uproars against the "infidels".
And behold: It wasn't long after the fall of Baghdad when the Bush Administration pulled back their troops.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
10 to 1 it won't take long until someone basically says "Who cares, the war wasn't about WMDs anyway, stupid pinko-commie liberal Democrat terrorist-hugging

Give it a rest . . .

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.

I don't think so. . .

I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD, only after they failed to find any did they begin the political tap dance.

I have to agree with Banco - I'm sure Bush and Blair didn't hop on the phone one night and suddenly decide to deceive the entire world and start a war . . .

What I still fail to understand is why heads at the CIA didn't roll over this. Of all the things regarding this war in Iraq that I have but a one sided opinion of - this issue is it.

[Edited 2005-03-31 19:34:21]

User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
I have to second Banco



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
I have to agree with Banco

Bloody hell, fellas. Don't sound too thrilled about it.  Yeah sure Big grin



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Give it a rest . . .

I'm looking forward to the thread that gives it a rest. It's not that I want anyone to shut up, but the yammering from a select few right-wing tools is just too annoying. I've seen it far too often, too - if someone dares to disagree with their political idol's opinion, they're anti-American and what not.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 8):
It's not that I want anyone to shut up, but the yammering from a select few right-wing tools is just too annoying.

Aloges, I hate to point out the blindingly frickin' obvious but the opposite is also true - and your first post here proves that quite well.

Pot calling the kettle black . . . simple as that.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Actually, I think it's stereotyping to say that the intellgence agencies (namely, the CIA and DIA) were dead wrong. It's just that anything that didn't toe the neocon party line wasn't reported up through the ranks far enough. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz obviously didn't want to hear it.

[Edited 2005-03-31 19:39:58]

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

Many of you are forgetting that intelligence is by no means an exact science - even the best and most highly-trained analysts and spies will "get it wrong" at least occasionally.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD, only after they failed to find any did they begin the political tap dance.

Believe whatever you want.

Wolfowitz had been making a case for war against Iraq since 1994. If you read Bob Woodward's book, there is also plenty of evidence to show that the decision to invade Iraq was a foregone conclusion. Once this conclusion was made, the evidence just had to be tailored to suit the decision.

Once 9-11 happened, the public and the press got bamboozled into believing that Iraq and 9-11 could get conflated, and, thus, no one wanted to REALLY examine this phoney evidence. If you did, you'd be dubbed unpatriotic. Thus, all those cowards in Congress just nodded their heads in unison.

THis is just another instance of this incredibly corrupt White House trying to find a fall guy. But the buck should stop at 1600 Penn Avenue, not with some intelligence officers pressured to produce the kind of evidence the Prez and his buddies wanted.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 7):
Don't sound too thrilled about it.

Agreed.  duck 



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Saddam hid an entire wing of Migs in the sand and look how long it took to find them. I guess it is out of the question that he would have hid any WMDs in the same manner while we waited for months to go in. He had all the time in the world to move the WMDs or hide them in some pit while we fought with the UN to uphold their own resolutions that Saddam was in violation of. If you remember correctly every one including France Germany and Russia said he was in violation of all 18 or so resolutions set by the UN. With more and more info coming out in regards to the Oil for Food scandal it is clear why no one else other than the forty some countries we went in with wanted us there. But who other than the evil Americans and Brits could be wrong in this situation.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Pot calling the kettle black . . . simple as that.

I beg to differ. I wasn't referring to anyone personal so I'm not calling anyone back, but I can see your point. Please try to see mine as well.

I'm just tired of some members' need to call "lefties" like me "communists" or whatever comes to their mind the second they post their attack. It's been done over and over, especially in threads like this one, and I was trying to prevent it from happening yet again.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 15):
Please try to see mine as well.

I completely understand . . . the thread will turn into a flame fest - and it won't take long . . .

Regards


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
If you read Bob Woodward's book, there is also plenty of evidence to show that the decision to invade Iraq was a foregone conclusion. Once this conclusion was made, the evidence just had to be tailored to suit the decision.

True, but this does not rule out that they indeed believed to find WMD in Iraq.
What puzzles me is that the Pentagon constantly "stovepiped" 3rd class intelligence directly to the Oval Office no matter how absurd the allegations were. The CIA didn't even have the change to classify those information. Level-headed people who attempted to warn the Administration were labeld unpatriotic and harassed even after they lost their jobs. And then there was this Curveball story.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I completely understand . . . the thread will turn into a flame fest - and it won't take long . . .

Well, and I was trying to postpone that for at least a little.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineStealthpilot From India, joined May 2004, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

Not something we didnt know. Then again, did Bush care? He was fixed on the idea and nothing was going to change his mind. Where did the idea come from.... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

-Nikhil



eP007
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I completely understand . . .

You ought to understand since you do it yourself all the time. It's pretty arrogant, but I suppose that shouldn't be unexpected for a cop.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Saddam hid an entire wing of Migs in the sand and look how long it took to find them.

Those MIGs had as much of a chance of flying as a gutted L1011 rotting in the sun in an airliner graveyard in Arizona. They had no parts, and were basically rotting in the Iraqi desert.

As far as when they were found, I believe they were found within a few weeks of when the war started.

This whole story has been bogus from the start. The ultimate result of the war (Saddam's trial, some semblance of democracy in Iraq) may negate the shoddy way the US went about making a case for war, however.


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 11):
Many of you are forgetting that intelligence is by no means an exact science - even the best and most highly-trained analysts and spies will "get it wrong" at least occasionally.

Well this shoddy intelligence has cost the lives of 1,500 U.S. soldiers and upwards of 100,000 Iraqis. And has anybody been held responsible? I believe George Tenet got some sort of award...  Yeah sure



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
You ought to understand since you do it yourself all the time. It's pretty arrogant, but I suppose that shouldn't be unexpected for a cop.

This from the kid who's a disciple of Dr. Lew . . .

Notice how much attention I'm giving this . . .

[Edited 2005-03-31 20:31:24]

User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

No actually this occured on muliple occasions. He hid A/C at the start of the Gulf War and again during the past conflict. The reason they were found so quickly is that they were burried on the airfield, and not vary well to boot. My point is that he had months to hide a few tankers of VX or other such agents in the desert. And those migs were in complete flying condition, they roled out of the hanger and into the ditch.

25 Jetjack74 : I think they did too. Bill Clinton did as well. In 1998, Clinton said that Saddam Hussien remains a great, and imminent threat to the national securi
26 Jaysit : One of the chief points he gave was the WMD's issue, but there were others. The reason presented to Congress and the American people were the WMDs. Hi
27 ANCFlyer : Agreed . . . That said the title on the thread is about Shitty Intel on the WMD. That fact cannot be disputed. Saddam should have been dealt with in
28 Post contains links WestWing : "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories....for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or
29 Jdwfloyd : All I have to say is that the American People agree with this administration. The Left has not controlled the House or Senate in 16 years and will hav
30 WestWing : Ummm. To be accurate, it seems that 51% of the American People believed that Dubya,Cheney,Rummy and friends were more "morally upstanding" than Kerry
31 SKYSERVICE_330 : The ultimate ploy to divert attention from the subject of the thread which is about a report that the WHITE HOUSE has released that admits the eviden
32 Post contains links NoUFO : I'm quite sure it became a major issue after 9/11. I googled around a little and found this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...aq/2003-05-30-wol
33 Superfly : Again, whare is Osama Bin Laden?
34 Jetjack74 : I saw him at the 711 on Denny Way. Damn right it was, but that's intellegence reform was necessary. Hopefully we won't make that mistake again. This
35 ANCFlyer : Which a ridiculous thing to do at present . . . We need to paying attention to the nut-case with nukes on the far side of the Pacific Ocean . . . imm
36 Jetjack74 : The rantings of Kim Jong Il and his wackos in power are a sign they at least are willing to negotiate, however futile they are. But the unsupervised
37 ANCFlyer : Ok, let me rephrase - the interpretation I had of you post referencing the US "dealing" with Iran was that we'd go barreling in there like we did int
38 Iakobos : Yes. I wont probably be around by that time, so I have to make a guess... Indeed. At the peak of hot-posts exchanges I have several times pointed to
39 ANCFlyer : I would have to agree - seems pretty interesting to me that we can read a damn license plate on a car from 150,000 feet in the air and can't find one
40 Iakobos : Well CSM, there is a difference between contingency planning (ie. building bases) and actually building simultaneously a couple of bases (full size wi
41 ANCFlyer : I wouldn't think so . . . Jordan is and has been a ally of the US . . . I respect the country very much and what it has done for Middle East Peace. I
42 22right : "dead wrong".... you bet!! They were wrong and a ship-load of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians are now dead. I really, really wonder how people l
43 Jetjack74 : Our foreign policy towards North Korea is multi-lateral talks with S Korea, China, Japan, and Taiwan. By engaging this fool, it says they want someth
44 ANCFlyer : Agreed . . . I continue to submit he is more dangerous than his Iranian counterparts . . . much more dangerous.
45 SlamClick : So let me see if I have this right. The president makes the decision to go into Iraq virtually alone. He sends Colin Powell to the UN to explain the i
46 Klaus : SlamClick: Turn out to be very few WMD. (Not true that there were 'none' as some objects relating were found.) The few decayed (and well-known) remnan
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