OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2117 times:
I need someone to explain something to me, as I just don't get it. Please keep in mind I have nothing against or about gays, nor is this how all gay's are, but it seems that there is a good percentage like this.
What is with how gay guys and lesbians dress and act? For instance, if you are a lesbian, you are a WOMAN who likes other WOMEN. Which would mean that you like someone who has the femininity and looks of a woman. So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am? What's with the short boy haircut and wearing of men's clothes? At that point, you just look like 2 men together, so what's the point?
As far as gay guys, your a GUY who is attracted to other GUYS. Which means that you may like the ruggedness, masculinity, and male looks of another man. So what is with all the flamers? Men walking around, although not dressed like women, but with the high pitched voice, feminine acts, and sometimes even a purse? You may be a man, but at that point, your basically acting like a woman? If I am gay(which I'm not), then wouldn't I want to be a masculine man who enjoys the intimate company of another masculine man, not a guy who basically acts like a girl?
So what is the deal? Once again, I'm not saying that ALL gays and lesbians are this way, but it just seems that so many of the population is, and actually gives other gays and lesbians the weird reputations they sometimes have. I have spoken with many folks about this and so far, seem to have everyone agree with me.
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 851 posts, RR: 51 Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2107 times:
Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter): For instance, if you are a lesbian, you are a WOMAN who likes other WOMEN. Which would mean that you like someone who has the femininity and looks of a woman. So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am?
I think you're mispercieving the physcology of homo/human-sexuality. You might be able to logically deduce something like that... but in reality, the complexities of human relationships and behavior yield different results.
Jake056 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2091 times:
There are tons of "feminine" lesbians, the same way there are tons of "masculine" gays. You just happen to notice the stereotypes because they look different than the norm. No big deal, just a great big world where people run the gamut of behavior.
I can't answer the more specific question of why some gays and lesbians dress or act "sterotypically". No one knows the answer. Live and let live is my motto.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2064 times:
By the way: Have you ever considered that your image of gay people might depend on those people who you (possibly by mistake) recognize as being gay? If you simply don´t recognize "non-stereotypical" people it can only further enforce the stereotype...
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2052 times:
Quoting Jake056 (Reply 2): There are tons of "feminine" lesbians, the same way there are tons of "masculine" gays. You just happen to notice the stereotypes because they look different than the norm. No big deal, just a great big world where people run the gamut of behavior.
Very Good Point. There are many of us who are masculine and feminine according to our respective sex. I think one of the reasons you see the feminine acting men, as well as the masculine females is because they are ones that stand out to you.
Now, about why they are that way, I have my own theories. During childhood and adolescence there is a constant battle of gender identification. In some cases, children violate those gender identification boundaries. It is also interesting to note that it's more acceptable for girls to violate gender rules than it is for boys. When either sex violates those gender identification rules, i.e boys wearing mom's make-up/cothes, girls playing with GI-Joe and playing football, the parents or peers will often reject the child. Causing the child to return to their respective gender identification rules. (The rejection comes in the form of making fun of the child, or some sort of punishment. This phenomenon seems to happen naturallhy.)
This is purely theory of my own, but I speculate that after enough gender violations, the child's same-sex peers can do enough self-esteem damage that the child actually becomes in a sense, afraid of the same sex, and starts patterning his or her actions after the opposite sex, since the opposite sex seems to be more accepting. Thus, we have men acting feminine, and women acting masculine.
Now, I don't think this happens with every child/adolescent who is gay, but it does happen with some.
Another interesting twist to the gay world is that broken gender rules are readily accepted. That is to say, most gay men and gay women don't care too much if their friends live in breach of gender identification rules. Thus, it becomes okay for the average gay man to act more feminine. In fact, many times gay people only surround themselves with other gay people because their particular social coordinates, (ahem...the conservative Christian south) doesn't really allow them to have a fully functioning emotional and physical life outside of the "gay ghettos
OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1955 times:
Apparently, everyone did not read the part where I said that these were purely stereotypes, but thus far, only UAL747 has answered the post with a somewhat relevant explanation.
I know a few gay men via work and most that I know are very masculine and "normal" appearing. But I have run into a few at work, and very many out of work that at totally out of the norm of how a man should act. As far as the lesbian part, that was mostly from my own peoplewatching encounters, as I don't think I know any actual lesbians. I am aware there are many "lipstick lesbians" out there, but for the most part, they are all butch looking. I noticed that during the news coverage of all the gay marriages recently, right before they were turned down by the Supreme Court. CNN showed a long line of people in CA waiting to get married and of all the lesbian couples that I saw, 99% of them were shorthaired, butch women. Some of these women looked so man-nish that I wondered if they had more testosterone flowing through their veins than I did. But I have yet to be able to confront any feminine man around as to if there is a reason why he acts that way.
There may be some kind of psychological damage or violations done to them, possibly during childhood, although I think the "I am born gay" part is a crock. I have just always kind of figured that a man may act fem or a woman may act butch is a way for them to come to terms with the fact that they are gay and feel more of the opposite gender, but if that is indeed true, then it throws the whole term of being "gay" out the window because then it brings the whole ideology of transgender possibilities into the picture.
JCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 41 Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1942 times:
I know a few gay people from work and school and at work and in class you would never know the difference. These guys aren't wearing lipstick, lisping, etc. The sole lesbian I know does not have a shaved head or look very "butch." However, if you're with these people in a social situation it's like "Wow...if I wasn't sure you were gay then, I'm absolutely sure now" It's like the gay guys go from "normal" men in a classroom/work situation, to absolutely unmistakeably stereotypically gay. I'm not bashing them for it, they're my friends, but it's comical to watch them get angry when someone brings up a gay stereotype and they do the exact same thing in social situations.
I have my own theory on the whole thing. I think a lot gay people are very uncomfortable about their sexuality and therefore must conform to a gay social norm in order to feel confident in their sexual preference.
Newark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 31 Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
Quoting JCS17 (Reply 9): I have my own theory on the whole thing. I think a lot gay people are very uncomfortable about their sexuality and therefore must conform to a gay social norm in order to feel confident in their sexual preference.
Or maybe they just act normally, and their sexual preference doesn't have an effect on their behavior. It's not like being gay makes guys act like flamers and girls like butches, and they're suppressing this expression. That is probably the way they normally act and normally are. I'm sure some people are pressured to act differently, but I know at least one gay guy who acts like any other straight guy just because that is the way he is.
OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1909 times:
Quoting Newark777 (Reply 10): Or maybe they just act normally, and their sexual preference doesn't have an effect on their behavior.
Why does this always seem to be some kind of defense line from gay people? Say something about them or in reference, it always ends up as, "Its completely normal" and is sometimes added to with, "you are the unnatural ones, not me." No, it's not that simple. It may be completely normal to that gay person, as they are used to be labeled as an "outcast" and such, but a person acting the complete opposite of the typical gender is not normal. If it were, I would not be asking the question that I did.
Once again, I am not trying to turn this into a gay bashing thread, nor do I have anything against gays. Like I said before, I know a few and to be honest, they are pretty good guys. They certainly dress better than me. I can't accessorize for shit. lol But the fact that so many of the stereotypical gay people(and don't act like they aren't out there, because they are) do act the way they do(lisp, fem actions, lesbian butch haircuts, etc.) and its very confusing to me.
SKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1390 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1889 times:
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11): Why does this always seem to be some kind of defense line from gay people?
I don't understand how you are equating to this to some sort of defence because it isn't one at all. A persons sexuality does not dictate what they should wear or how they should act etc. Many people break gender roles e.g. Tomboys - see below. and they are straight.
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11): but a person acting the complete opposite of the typical gender is not normal.
According to who? You? "Normal" is a setting on a washing machine, no more no less. Society has created gender roles for people, masculine for men and feminine for women, but there is nothing inherent in the person that says they have to follow these created roles. You were not born with an inherrent trait in you that said you had to play with GI Joes. You did, because you were socialized into believing that that is how you were suppose to act. Just because someone steps outside of a societal imposed role does not mean they are abnormal. There are many people who don't identify themselves as being gay or lesbian and take on a diffferent gender role or qualities of the other gender (Tomboys for example). Does it dierectly impact your life that the guy down the road talks with a lisp and wears tighter fitting clothes? No. If anything, I would congratulate the person on not being scared to be themselves and not conform to be what they are expected to be by society.
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8): There may be some kind of psychological damage or violations done to them, possibly during childhood, although I think the "I am born gay" part is a crock.
Or maybe there was damage or a "violation" (whatever the hell that means) done in the fetus and thus the person is born gay. Why don't you think someone can be born gay? Why do you think it is a crock?
OttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1762 times:
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 18): If you watch Will & Grace you have this "dramaqueen" and the masculine gay guy wich I think´s ok, but there are some kinda political correctness to "gay are ok", specilly here in Sweden.
Solnabo, thank you. I was looking for a way to compare the two ways of acting. Will is very straight acting, while Jack is a total flamer. Now, in reality, of course, it doesn't faze me either way. But hasn't it made anyone wonder, what makes Jack's character act the way he does?
Normal is not a setting on a washing machine, normal is how the majority of the population act. If all gays or lesbians acted this way, it would be normal and there would be no discussion. But because all gays and lesbians don't act this way, the question that no one can seem to answer is "why." Most people say, "Well, there are variations in how people act, deal with it." Well, thats not a problem, but there has to be someone on this board who may be a psychoanalyst or someone who would have a pretty good reason on what would cause some gays to act against the majority. Who knows, maybe its something that no one can answer and the point is moot.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16): Otto: You do realize that some of us homos look at straight people and can pick you out in a crowd too, and wonder why you act soooo hetero, right?
I would sure as hell hope you could pick me out in a crowd. The reason I probably act so hetero is because thats who I am, just one of those wierd hetero's. Gosh they are weird, they actually like women, eww. lol If that seems weird, then this should be interesting. A co-worker of mine actually finds women totally attractive and falls in love with them, but only prefers sex with men and can't even imagine sex with a woman. Problem is, he can't find a woman who will "live" with that. I told him to maybe hook up with a prostitute. She gets all the other sex she needs, why would she want to come home to you wanting sex as well?
Because you aren't born with anything. If you are born, and with the exception of eating, were never given any other kind of human contact, you would not be gay or straight. Everything that makes you who you are is some kind of influence at some point in your life. Were you born with an interest in aviation? No, you found something later in life that triggered the interest. Nor is anyone a natural born pilot, no one is naturally hetero or naturally homo. So no, you can't be born gay. If you are gay, then I believe it is something that has influenced you earlier in your life. It could be something direct or indirect, and doesn't even have to be anything like an interest in dolls(which, btw, I played with GIJoes and they are classified as "dolls"), but there is the influence that makes your mind go against the heterosexual norm. Just as you also have influences in order to be hetero, which is the path that more people tend to follow. Some people just use the "born gay" remark because they feel if they think they are born that way, they have no reason to feel that they are truly different because they couldn't help it. And if they feel that way, then that is an indication that they are ashamed or embarrassed by being gay instead of just being able to accept it.
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1741 times:
Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter): Because you aren't born with anything. If you are born, and with the exception of eating, were never given any other kind of human contact, you would not be gay or straight.
I think there is SOME truth to this statement. I don't know who did this study, but if I recall, there was a study done with babies who at intimate contact with people, and those who did not. The children with much contact with other humans developed normally, whereas the ones who didn't, had many psychological development problems.
Here's my story about how I was gay if this helps any:
Ever since I was about 5 years of age, I knew something was different. However, most 5 year olds are not emotionally, physically, or psychologically to be cognitively aware of many differences. I was what you would call a "prodigy" child. Very intelligent for my age. I never was interesting in rough and tumble play that most boys were into. I preferred to be by myself when I played. I was often shunned by my peers for being different and the way I played. I started playing classical piano at age 5, and was somewhat of a young virtuoso at the time. I also rode horses, English style, and was very talented at that. I was an extremely good artist as well.
My father was more of the football, beer drinker type. He was on business most of the time, and wasn't really around.
When I was young, my gender violations either went un-noticed, or were un-corrected. Often times I would play dress-up with my mother's clothing, and often patterned my behavior after her, since she was the dominant figure in my life.
When I reached puberty, I became somewhat sexually cognitive. At first, I had the normal and masturbatory fantasies of women, but because of my un-corrected gender violations, I quickly began to feel like a lesser man, if you will. I thought that all the guys were somehow more manly that I was. I wished so much that I could be like them. Then, over a period of time, that wanting to be like them turned into a sexual desire. I can't really explain the transformation, but over a certain amount of time, my sexual desires for women diminished and I starting having sexual attractions to men.
What I have just presented to you is very much only a brief psychological study of homosexuality in children. However, I do think there is a genetic predisposition that plays a fundamental part, but I do not know enough information about it.
In closing, I honestly do not think it is a choice. Why would someone chose to be gay and live a life where hatred is directed towards you for being different. It would be much easier to live as a straight man, have a family, and not have people always questioning you.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21346 posts, RR: 54 Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1725 times:
UAL747: What I have just presented to you is very much only a brief psychological study of homosexuality in children.
No, not really. It´s your subjective interpretation of your own personal development. That´s an entirely different cup of tea. People are gay or straight with all kinds of familial or developmental backgrounds.
And considering the ubiquity of homosexuality across all species (not even limited to mammals) it is extremely unlikely that the basic disposition is not a set of biological factors which exist for most species.
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1719 times:
Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8): "I am born gay" part is a crock. I have just always kind of figured that a man may act fem or a woman may act butch is a way for them to come to terms with the fact that they are gay and feel more of the opposite gender, but if that is indeed true, then it throws the whole term of being "gay" out the window because then it brings the whole ideology of transgender possibilities into the picture.
I'm very much interested in the same sex BECAUSE of the masculinity of men. I do not have an attraction to feminine acting men. I have no idea why, just doesn't interest me. I'm attracted to men because of their masculinity, it's been that way since I was young.
Secondly, this "transgender" idea you have going here is not something that happens a lot. I've been gay for my entire life and I have STILL yet to meet a transgendered person, or at least one that would admit it to me. I go to gay bars all the time and never have seen a transgendered person. Drag queens, yes, transgendered, no. And about drag queens, most of them prefer to be men. In fact, I talked with several OUT of drag, and most of them just do it for fun, and they love being guys.