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Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

A fantastic article. I recommend that everyone read through the whole thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/03/ma...=1112816122-e4dlpJrTBPi9h7KHCuBDww


Last spring, Ayaan Hirsi Ali took her ''Dutch mother'' -- the woman who taught her the language and cared for her after she arrived in the Netherlands as a refugee in 1992 -- to lunch at the Dudok brasserie, near the Parliament in The Hague. As always, Hirsi Ali's armed security detail was there. They have been her companions since she started receiving death threats in September 2002. Hirsi Ali, who was born in Somalia and has been a member of the Dutch Parliament since January 2003, had endorsed the view that Islam is a backward religion, condemned the way women live under it and said that by today's standards, the prophet Muhammad would be considered a perverse tyrant. She had also announced that she was no longer a believing Muslim. The punishment for such apostasy is, according to strict interpretations of Islam, death. That day at the Dudok, several dozen vocational students were taking up the main restaurant, so she and her guards parked at two tables near the bar. Hirsi Ali had her back to the restaurant when one of the students, apparently a Dutch convert to Islam, tapped her on the shoulder. ''I turned around,'' she recalls in her elegant English, ''and saw this sweet, young Dutch guy, about 24 years old. With freckles! And he was like, 'Madam, I hope the mujahedeen get you and kill you.' '' Hirsi Ali handed him her knife and told him, ''Why don't you do it yourself?''

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

If I could, I'd add Ayaan Hirsi Ali to my respected users list. I'm not trying to be anti-Islam, but I think it's admirable that she chose her path. She didn't let family tradition dictate her future. She assessed the situation, and she made up her own mind. This is truly admirable. To her father who has rejected her and the student who hopes that the mujahedeen kill her, you just don't get it, and I'm sure you never will. banghead 

Logan


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
''I turned around,'' she recalls in her elegant English, ''and saw this sweet, young Dutch guy, about 24 years old. With freckles! And he was like, 'Madam, I hope the mujahedeen get you and kill you.' '' Hirsi Ali handed him her knife and told him, ''Why don't you do it yourself?''

I second Logans thought on this. This woman showed she is willing to lay her life on the line, and really put this kid on the money. I hope he learned from her example.

I wish that the people who claim that Islam is a completely benign religion would take a minute to read this and see that even in Holland...the whitebread land of tulips and canals, that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern. Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1473 times:

She's certainly not only one of the most idiosyncratic but also authentic politicians. I admire her and wish her luck. I'm afraid she will need it (good luck, not admiration).


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

Surprise surprise, RJ posted this article... I would read it all, but unfortunatley I don't have a subscription at NYTimes.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 1):
If I could, I'd add Ayaan Hirsi Ali to my respected users list. I'm not trying to be anti-Islam, but I think it's admirable that she chose her path.

Which path would that be exactly?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern.

Could you please elaborate on this point? What violence and viciousness are you talking about, and why is it becasue a few members of my religion are choosing to do this, my entire religion is held responsible?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?


User currently offlineAviationfreak From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Many Dutch are afraid she will be killed by a suicide attacker because the assault on Theo van Gogh was one (although he, the attacker still lives) And to be honest, I think it is very hard to protect someone against a suicide attacker.

Sander



I love both Airbus and Boeing as much as I love aviation!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Hirsi Ali is a truly amazing and brave woman. There was a recent 60 Minutes segment on her. The above restaurant story seems so typical of her. Good for her.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Which path would that be exactly?

She didn't just accept that she was born into a certain faith and accept it. She chose to investigate the ins and outs of Islam and decided she didn't care for some of those aspects; in fact she cares enough to say she is no longer of the Muslim faith.

She chose. Probably knowing full well that it would mean a bounty on her head. I have far more respect for someone who researches something and makes a concious decision to change than I do for someone who never questions things into which they were born and simply acts them out. Since there can only be one truth, all faiths are both right and wrong.

Logan


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Hirsi Ali is quite remarkable.

I loved this statement about her"

"For her this 60's liberal culture is only sunshine."

I couldn't agree more.

However, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man.


User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1388 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

God bless Hirsi Ali. She has my respect and admiration. The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

Correction. Only corageous Muslim men and women....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Which path would that be exactly?

Theo van Gogh's brutal murder, cheering on 9/11, happy when innocent civilians die in Israel ring a bell?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):

We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?

You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq has given the Iraqi people free elections and a chance at democracy. When was the last time you voted QR LOL?

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 5):
Many Dutch are afraid she will be killed by a suicide attacker because the assault on Theo van Gogh was one (although he, the attacker still lives) And to be honest, I think it is very hard to protect someone against a suicide attacker.

Well, from what I understand, the attack on van Gogh was a surprise. It wasn't like he had bodyguards trailing him. It appears that she is very well protected.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
God bless Hirsi Ali. She has my respect and admiration. The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.

It is time for Europeans to decide, as Commentary magazine wrote, “Either Islam gets Europeanized, or Europe gets Islamized”. Even Winston Churchill wrote that as an effect of the rise of Mohammedanism, “the civilization of modern Europe might fall”. Europe is at a crucial junction today.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1385 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
What violence and viciousness are you talking about, and why is it becasue a few members of my religion are choosing to do this, my entire religion is held responsible?

Thank you for responding and showing that you read only the part that you expect to read. You also show the typical double talk one gets from a spokesman for these people who say at the same time "We don't do that....and....It's only a few radicals...nothing to worry about...unless you lower your guard and let them into your country with access to explosives and tanker trucks."

Let me save the trouble and reprint what I said here.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
I wish that the people who claim that Islam is a completely benign religion would take a minute to read this and see that even in Holland...the whitebread land of tulips and canals, that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern. Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

I by no means convicted all of Islam with this brush, but it is much more than just a few radicals causing all the trouble. There are violence preaching imams and mullahs all over the world, and you cannot compare this religious warlike fervor with anything else in the modern era. The Christians of the middle ages perhaps, but that was 500 years ago.

Moderates in your religion are afraid to speak too loudly for fear of reprisals, and I don't mean egging the car. Wahabists and others teach religious justification for murder and suicide, and this young convert is an example of what I describe.

Can you actually expect me to believe that you honestly believe that there is not a huge problem with your religion in how it is being presented by its leaders to the people?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):
owever, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man

Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

I'd like QR332 to tell me what would happen to this woman if she moved back to a predominately Muslim country.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?

Oh, please....get past this. Three years ago Islamists were constantly talking about the threat of the zionists and the Crusades as reasons to distrust and hate the west. Well, if a muslim nation would invade a neighbor and install a free democracy then I would probable be all for it. The Iraqis seem to be moving forward. Too bad you won't.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1386 times:

People in The Netherlands have been sceptic of this event, given the fact that her security guards never noticed anything. The student in question even wrote a letter to the editor (of the newspaper in which Hirsi Ali's column describing he event appeared) in which he denied ever having threatened Hirsi Ali.

Personally, I believe Hirsi Ali constantly needs to have all cameras focused on her
so she can make her statements (which aren't always those of the party she belongs to) and which contribute little to nothing to solve the issues at hand. She is the Ann Coulter of Dutch politics.

She left her former political party, the Socialistic PVDA (opposition party right now) and made a sharp rightturn to the right-wing VVD (in the coalition government), an unprecedented move in Dutch politics.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
undisclosed location,

Until she decided to disclose it herself to press the Goverment to 'upgrade' her to a more luxurious location. Heck, she even disclosed where her former VVD party collegue (and now ultra-ultra rightwing-nut) Geert Wilders was located!


Wilders! 'Nough said!  vomit 



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1363 times:

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 12):
She is the Ann Coulter of Dutch politics.

Please. Ann Coulter is a racist lunatic. I can't quite think of an American version of Hirsi Ali, perhaps John McCain or Joe Lieberman, but both of them are still politicians. Natan Sharansky from Israel comes to mind too.


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 13):
Please. Ann Coulter is a racist lunatic. I can't quite think of an American version of Hirsi Ali, perhaps John McCain or Joe Lieberman, but both of them are still politicians. Natan Sharansky from Israel comes to mind too.

Hirsi Ali is a lunatic, in my opinion. Her apparent confrontation with this Dutch student doesn't all of a sudden make her some hero. Hirsi Ali, just as her male counterpart Wilders (pictured above) is nothing more than a politician who knows how to play the masses. They actually say those things the public only dares to think, yet they don't offer alternatives or solutions.

As politicians, they have a responsability towards the people and for the security and safety of the nation as a whole, they simply should be a lot more carefull with their public statements. They might not be advocating openly the use of force against Muslims, their statements are certainly heard by the ultra-right wingers (the Lonsdalers, the skinheads and other scum) who believe setting mosques on fire and threatening immigrants is justified.



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1316 times:

Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

Actually she lives both in Lahore and in Washington, DC, as her job permits it. The only difference is that she doesn't wear a miniskirt in Pakistan, but a rather low cut salwar kameez. Basically she shows more T in Pakistan, less A.

Besides, there are plenty of boozy Muslims in Pakistan (as I learned from my visit there) who can match their Indian counterparts in drinking scotch (a lot of booze gets smuggled in from India or Dubai) and who love a good party.

In my opinion, one religion is as good or as bad as the next. If the West had not gone through the age of scientific rationalism where religion and civil life were separated, we'd be living under a Christian Taliban, who as we all know can be just as vicious as any maniacal Mullah.

Its quite interesting to see the American right suddenly jump on the bandwagon defending Dutch social liberalism - but only because of their disdain and contempt for Islamo-fascists. The American right and Islamo-fascists have far more in common (bigotry, racism, hatred of gays, promulgation of a theocratic state, anti-birth control), than the American right has in common with the socially progressive and tolerant Dutch.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
She didn't just accept that she was born into a certain faith and accept it. She chose to investigate the ins and outs of Islam and decided she didn't care for some of those aspects; in fact she cares enough to say she is no longer of the Muslim faith.

She chose. Probably knowing full well that it would mean a bounty on her head. I have far more respect for someone who researches something and makes a concious decision to change than I do for someone who never questions things into which they were born and simply acts them out. Since there can only be one truth, all faiths are both right and wrong.

All I can say is that not everybody who is born Muslim will agree with their faith, just like with any faith. I admire her strength, even if I do disagree with the path she took.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):
However, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man.

Many women in Islam do have a lot of freedom, but it does not have to come in the form of miniskirts or alcohol.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

It is disgusting, I believe that she made the choice to turn back on Islam, and that its not for us to punish her, but that is up to God. But, you think that only radical Muslims are the ones who give death threats because they oppose her views? Many important people recieve death threats because radicals don't agree with them.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.

On to something my ass. Its because more radical Muslims believe she should pay the price for turning back ok Islam - death. Its nothing to do with their fear of free speech. Lebanon, a predominantly Muslim country, has free speech, and many Muslim countries are going through reforms to allow more freedom too. Also, Indonesia is a Muslim democracy, and Malaysia, also a democracy, has many Muslims. Explain that then...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Correction. Only corageous Muslim men and women....

She's not Muslim.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Theo van Gogh's brutal murder, cheering on 9/11, happy when innocent civilians die in Israel ring a bell?

Lets see, Theo van Gogh - theres one Muslim who killed him, not a billion Muslim. Cheering on 9/11 - that happened in VERY small areas, most Muslim people sympathised with America. It was your media portraying us as evil Muslims, as usual. There was one video played by your media showing Muslims celebrating in the streets of Hebron, which was then proved to be actually them celebrating the withdrawal of Israel several years before. Your great media at work. I'm sure there are many people who are happy when they see innocent Muslims dying in Iraq and Palestine.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
happy when innocent civilians die in Israel

You know damn right that it has nothing to do with religion - that is a political conflict, and they are happy because of what Israel does to them. I'm not saying its right, but lets not get into an Israel/Palestine discussion on here.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq has given the Iraqi people free elections and a chance at democracy.

And you feel to understand that it had nothing to do with America being kind hearted, and that it cost the Iraqis their entire countries and tens of thousands of innocents. If America was there for democracy, things would have been very different. Why did Bush lie to you then?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
When was the last time you voted QR LOL?

If I was in Jordan, I would have voted for my MPs, but I am living in Qatar so I can't.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
It is time for Europeans to decide, as Commentary magazine wrote, “Either Islam gets Europeanized, or Europe gets Islamized”.

Great, RJ, you just contradicted yourself in the same post. Islam is a religion, and freedom includes freedom of religion, doesn't it? So why should Islam get "Europeanized"?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Thank you for responding and showing that you read only the part that you expect to read. You also show the typical double talk one gets from a spokesman for these people who say at the same time "We don't do that....and....It's only a few radicals...nothing to worry about...unless you lower your guard and let them into your country with access to explosives and tanker trucks."

Yes I will say its only a few radicals - your post implied it was more than just a few radicals. A few of our radicals blow up people, a few of your presidents invade countries for no good reason. Same shit, different pile. And why is it double talk exactly..? Also, i'm talking few in comparison to the amount of people who are Muslim; there are more than a billion Muslims, and out of those billion how many radicals?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
by no means convicted all of Islam with this brush, but it is much more than just a few radicals causing all the trouble. There are violence preaching imams and mullahs all over the world, and you cannot compare this religious warlike fervor with anything else in the modern era.

And Islam, as a religion today, is constantly under attack from the West. Many things have pushed these people to the extreme, and I will not sit here and tell you the West has been the cause of it. A big cause is the bad leaders that have we have and have had, and the bad living conditions many Muslims have. But, the West have not made things easy, and thus the hate - they support the leaders who have abused their people, invaded Muslim and Arab countries, and they have not helped in "spreading freedom"

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Moderates in your religion are afraid to speak too loudly for fear of reprisals, and I don't mean egging the car. Wahabists and others teach religious justification for murder and suicide, and this young convert is an example of what I describe.

Wahabists are mostly in the Gulf, and this women is from Somalia. Secondly, what speaking out are you referring to? Huge, and I mean HUGE amounts of Muslims have spoken out against Islamist terrorism - you should have seen the protests here when the bombings happened.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Can you actually expect me to believe that you honestly believe that there is not a huge problem with your religion in how it is being presented by its leaders to the people?

I never said that - there is a very big problem with our religion and the way it is taught today, I will not deny it, but the problem is not that most Muslims are inclined to go blow themselves up.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

I'd like QR332 to tell me what would happen to this woman if she moved back to a predominately Muslim country.

Nothing at all. What do you think will happen, please tell me. You think all my female friends and classmates don't go out dressed like that? Many Muslim woman in the Arab world enjoy a drink; go to Beirut, Amman, Dubai, Cairo, etc, etc and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about. What do you think I do when I go to parties, sit there trying to get all the guys to dance with me?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Oh, please....get past this. Three years ago Islamists were constantly talking about the threat of the zionists and the Crusades as reasons to distrust and hate the west.

I don't agree with Islamists, why are you telling me this? And your telling me every single religious Muslim thinks like that? And plus, how does that change what I said?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
The Iraqis seem to be moving forward. Too bad you won't.

The only thing that is moving forward in Iraq is the death toll.


User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

The only thing that is moving forward in Iraq is the death toll

According to your ambassador to Ottawa (Jordanian that is), who gave a speech yesterday at McGill that's not necessarily true  Wink



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

Many women in Islam do have a lot of freedom, but it does not have to come in the form of miniskirts or alcohol.

No, it doesn't.

I know plenty of Muslim women who don't pursue either.

But if one chooses to express one's freedom in such a manner, why should the state forbid it? Nowhere in the Quran is it mandatory to wear a chador/burkha.

But, you think that only radical Muslims are the ones who give death threats because they oppose her views? Many important people recieve death threats because radicals don't agree with them.

True.
Here in the US, Judges are being bullied with death threats by the Christian right. And some of our stupid Republican politicians are justifying their behaviour.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

Quoting Marco (Reply 17):
According to your ambassador to Ottawa (Jordanian that is), who gave a speech yesterday at McGill that's not necessarily true

Marco, Iraq is in a very bad shape right now, and no proper progress in stoping the insurgents has been made - and as long as these terrorists are free to roam Iraq and ruin everything, no proper progress will be made.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
But if one chooses to express one's freedom in such a manner, why should the state forbid it? Nowhere in the Quran is it mandatory to wear a chador/burkha.

The state does not forbid it, except in Iran and Saudi Arabia. When it comes to alcohol, it is available in most Muslim countries, even if it is not allowed officialy. This goes against Islamic law, and I don't believe that not allowing the sale of alcohol freely is really limiting anybody's freedom; it is a harmful substance and the government can ban it if it wants. As for the hijab, I am 100% against a woman being forced to wear it; the only person in my family (both sides) who wears hijab is my grandmother. I believe it is not compulsary, and that a woman should be able to choose; at the end of the day, each person will be judged by God, and it is up to them what they do with their life.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

QR332 - You also live in Jordan, which has always been a more progressive state with respect to women's rights.

Sadly enough, the kind of Islam the West sees is the Saudi kind that is being exported to the rest of the Muslim world in South Asia, Indonesia, Europe, etc.


User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1970 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

Well, I guess I'll weigh in here.

1.) Hirsi Ali is brave for fighting for women's rights in a situation that makes her a target. Some of her criticisms make more sense as indictments of the way Islam is practiced and the cultures in which it is practiced that Islam itself, but whether you agree or disagree with her, there are NO EXCUSES for the death threats and such that she is receiving.

2.) On the other hand, there are plenty of ridiculous death threats going around all the time. Look at the number of death threats that, for example, Catholic and Protestant football(soccer) players have received when playing for the "other side's" team in Glasgow. Does that mean that all of Scotland is backwards and living in the dark ages. No. Does the fact that there have been many more physical (and fatal) attacks ON Muslim immigrants in Europe by right-wing idiots than attacks on politicians or others BY Musilims in Europe mean that all Europeans are backward. What about the recent situation in which a Sikh (not Muslim) playwright had to go into hiding in England when her play enraged the local Sikh community and her life was in danger?

3.) There are situations in which harsh criticism of a group's actions from within seems warranted and/or important but also has the potential to be used to fuel other people's prejudices against that group. Hirsi Ali seems to play into Dutch right-wingers' ideas about immigration and minorities that are scary. When her statements and her situation are used to fuel Rjpieces's beliefs about how Muslims are brainwashed fanatics planning to take over the world it is similarly problematic. Or when her claims play into DL021's imaginations about women in all Muslim countries being forced to wear full cover all the time (Saudi Arabia yes, Lebanon and many other places no; and even consider the difference between educated and uneducated groups in a place such as Pakistan or whatever).

This reminds me a bit of a stuation in the other direction: the book The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. Finkelstein is Jewish, the child of Holocaust survivors, and he makes very controversial critical claims about the way the events of the Holocaust have been exploited in the recent past to get settlement money and to justify Israel's political actions. As with Hirsi Ali, there are many people who see Finkelstein as brave and outspoken, but the book also made him many strong enemies in the Jewish community--partly because they disagree with Finkelstein's data, claims, and historical interpretation, but I suspect more because his book makes the Jewish community look bad, and they already feel under seige and victimized. I'd say it is fairly parallel to the situation with Hirsi Ali: the important facts and intelligent provocations in Finkelstein's book can be debated in an intelligent way, but they are also liable to fall into the hands of people who already have negative stereotypes about Jews. All you have to do is read reviews of the book on, say, Amazon.com, and you can see how the book can become a tool for anti-semitic propaganda in the same way that Hirsi Ali's statements can become tools for Islamophobic propaganda.

Where do you draw the line(s) in these situations. It gets difficult. Are Finkelstein and Hirsi Ali self-haters who are themselves responsible for stirring up prejudice against their own people? I think not (at least not in Finkelstein's case, since Hirsi Ali left the group she criticizes rather than working to reform it from within). Anyway, I see them both as fairly strong figures for speaking out, whether or not I agree with all of their points or their ways of making those points. But then, on the other side of the coin, I think we must work not to let their statements play into the hands of those outside the groups in question who would tar whole peoples or religions with the same brush.

If one looks at the Muslims in the Netherlands, one sees a group that has fled poverty and lack of education in their home countries, and then encountered resistance to their way of life in their new country. By all means, assert that they must assimilate to a certain point (I agree), but don't ignore the fact that they are also scared, isolated, and sometimes persecuted, and that working toward assimilation must go two ways. Immigrants must be made to feel welcomed and valued, not under constant suspicion. Furthermore, don't blame all of them for the actions of the most radical elements.

[Edited 2005-04-07 22:17:04]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1928 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

Funny to see how many Dutchies have replied on this topic... And I think I know why; a lot of people think Hirshi Ali talks sh*t and is only out on causing uproar.

Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hirshi Ali and Geert Wilders are (and were for Theo) some of the most outspoken people in our politics. However, they tend to discriminate and try to play on our sentiments rather our brains. They also tend to tell the same story, over and over again. They also tend to call muslims all kind of names like pigs (and that is the nicest name). They also tend to give muslims all the blaims for what's wrong here.

I can only say, this is bullshit. You can't say all of these things and recall it on your freedom of speech. By calling all this nonsense you hurt people and you cause uproar in our sometimes fragile integrated society. The saying what goes around comes around comes in my mind here.

If you constant bash another, some people will use violence because they feel helpless and ignored. I don't think this is a good thing, but we created our own problems by ignoring them for a long time.

Schoenorama have summed it up very well and get's a spot on my RR list for that! Both Hirshi Ali and Wilders are only full of air and that's it. They just talk and want attention, but they don't come with any (workable or normal) solution for the problems.

Cheers!



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1232 times:

I'll confess to not having heard of Hirsi Ali until yesterday. On face value, I read the article, considered the source, and decided that she seemed brave, and I admired her decision. I still do, but learning more and more by reading all of the posts here, I have to check myself. There are always at least two sides to a story. I just read N229NW's excellent post (#21) and then LifelinerOne's just below it. It's true, not living in the Netherlands, how can I develop a truly objective view on this?

She may be full of hot air and not full of solutions. But she still made a choice knowing it could be risky for her. I wish more Dutch members would chime in with their thoughts, since they have a unique perspective.

Logan


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
QR332 - You also live in Jordan, which has always been a more progressive state with respect to women's rights.

Qatar also has excellent women's rights, and is constantly improving on them. I have great respect for the Emir and how far he's brought Qatar; ten years ago, when we first came here, it was a different country from today. The Emir changed that in many respects.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
Sadly enough, the kind of Islam the West sees is the Saudi kind that is being exported to the rest of the Muslim world in South Asia, Indonesia, Europe, etc.

Sad but true, although the most radical islamists seem to be the ones living abroad, who are trying to maintain the values they grew up with in foreign countries, and the Muslims from Saudi & East Asia (i.e. Pakistan, etc).

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 23):
I'll confess to not having heard of Hirsi Ali until yesterday.

Same here.


25 DL021 : The American right is much more concerned with the right to live free and determine ones own condition peacably than any Islamo-fascist and you ought
26 Lfutia : Many people are upset with her for making the film 'Submissions'.. Many Muslim Dutch Immigrants found it extremely wrong. I have seen submissions onli
27 Post contains images Schoenorama : Exactly. After the murder of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, it was mainly the left-leaning policitians in Holland who received the death-threats and t
28 LifelinerOne : No, I'm defenitely not! I'm just glad that there's someone out there who can look beyond those peoples stupid ideas! Cheers!
29 Post contains images MauriceB : funny that a lot of foreign people know here.. especially the americans...... to get an expresion about how she looks, i will post a photo
30 Post contains images LifelinerOne : My eyes, my eyes!!!
31 NoUFO : Schoenorama, While I do agree with a number of what you have said, I have the strong impression you consider Hirsi Ali's provocations only an end in i
32 MD-90 : I think she's quite good looking in that picture. That statement doesn't surprise me in the least, coming from you. You're a shining example of moder
33 Schoenorama : I wasn't suggesting it is her personal vanity alone which makes her say the things she does. On one hand, she is trying to get certain items into the
34 Marco : Lebanon, a predominantly Muslim country Are you trying to stir up something with this statement? Lebanon is not a predominately Muslim country. In fac
35 Post contains links and images QR332 : Lebanon is not a predominantly Muslim country? What rock have you been living under? What do you think the reason that the civil war started? Also, d
36 Post contains links and images Marco : Lebanon is not a predominantly Muslim country? What rock have you been living under? What do you think the reason that the civil war started? The civi
37 QR332 : True, but a main reason was that there was more power for the Christians than the Muslims while there were more Muslims than Christians. The "LOOL" w
38 N1120A : Except that actual, strict interpretations of Islam say no such thing. It is only the "unfundamentalists" who make this claim. Oh, and people like yo
39 OO-VEG : I am amazed so many foreigners are into this debate. And hardly any Dutch people. In fact I don't even recall the restaurant incident , but I might ha
40 QR332 : I can't edit my post anymore, Marco, but I forgot to add that if you also include the Muslim Lebanese leaving outside Lebanon as well, you willl find
41 LifelinerOne : No he's not. He's only making a lot of people think on how stupid some politicians are, including him. Cheers!
42 Marco : No, it is predominantly Moslem. For years, in fact, the Moslems were kept from taking their rightful majority in the representative government because
43 QR332 : Historically, it has been a country with two major religons: Islam and Christianity. Why is it that you are so bitter Marco? The Christian minorities
44 Marco : Why is it that you are so bitter Marco? The Christian minorities are decreasing because there is a much higher number of Muslims, and there are still
45 QR332 : Because Muslims reproduce more, so the ratio of Muslims to Christians will obviously decrease and the percentage of Christians will also decrease. I
46 MD-90 : Too bad that Christians and Jews often don't have the same rights that Muslims have in far too many middle eastern nations. Marco has not been in the
47 OO-VEG : Time magazine has put Ayaan Hirshi Ali on the list of most influential people in the world. She is listed in the category of Leaders & Revolutionaries
48 ContnlEliteCMH : Are you suggesting that an adherent to a religion in which they were raised has not also gone through research, soul-searching, and choice? I think w
49 ContnlEliteCMH : Yes, but we DID go through that age. This is like saying "If Southwest hadn't hedged their fuel, they'd be losing money." It's an interesting academi
50 LifelinerOne : She has pleasant company; Kim Jong Il, George W. Bush, Ariel Sharon, Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi are all in the same category.... You can't call this an ho
51 QR332 : Please tell me what the rights are that we Muslims have that people of other religions don't have? He is sitting there talking about the ethnic clean
52 FDXMECH : >>>She has pleasant company; Kim Jong Il, George W. Bush, Ariel Sharon, Abu Mousab al-Zarqawi are all in the same category....
53 Petertenthije : Harrie potter!
54 Post contains images FDXMECH : >>>Harrie potter!
55 Post contains links Petertenthije : You bet it's fair. Check this photo (the guy on the left is our minister president): http://home.planet.nl/~elder180/images/onzin/2002verschil.jpg
56 FDXMECH : Oops, I stand corrected.
57 Marco : Please tell me what the rights are that we Muslims have that people of other religions don't have? How about in Iran, Christians can't serve in the po
58 MD-90 : I think you got confused when he was talking about Lebanon specifically, versus the Middle East as a whole. The Southern Baptist Convention has two m
59 Schoenorama : You're right! I was confused with the GPV which formed the Christenunie some 5 years ago together with the RPF. Wasn't Adolf Hitler on that same list
60 OO-VEG : Could very well be, at least Terrorist Al Zarqawi is in her company on the list of 2005.
61 RJpieces : The Middle East is undergoing an ethnic cleansing. All the socities are being arabized and Islamisized. INDEED! And Europe is next on their list...Unf
62 Post contains images QR332 : Iran and Saudi Arabia - the two most hard-line Muslim countries in the world. You are making it sound like its all Muslim countries, which you no is
63 Post contains links Marco : Iran and Saudi Arabia - the two most hard-line Muslim countries in the world. You are making it sound like its all Muslim countries, which you no is n
64 Post contains images QR332 : So how is this racist/ethnic cleansing? It is Islamic law, and as much as I might disagree with it, it is reenforced. Here you go changing your story
65 Post contains links Marco : So how is this racist/ethnic cleansing? It is Islamic law, and as much as I might disagree with it, it is reenforced. Here you go changing your story
66 Post contains images QR332 : You went from ethnic cleansing of minorities to something ANY Muslim who wants to convert would suffer from. The relevence is that the USA is now in
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