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Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics  
User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

What is your opinion on Punks and Goths? How about the Religion Wicca? Before I say anything else I will stop and let some other people answer first.




Note: This is not any different than the "your opinion on Christianity" or such threads, or any other thread concerning religion.

[Edited 2005-04-12 02:34:24]

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5010 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

I like Wiccans. They have an Earth based faith and mind thier own business. Unlike some major religions I could mention.

Punk rock is great! At least the original form...Ramones, Sex Pistols, Clash etc...now we get SONS OF PUNK which is really just retro.

Goths always seemed cool too me, from afar. The ones I knew personally were too much "in the scene" and not really thier own personas. Kinda sad.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineIhadapheo From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 6027 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

I enjoy listening to the Sex pistols, Ramones, The Clash as much now as I did back in 76' Well 76' for the Ramones a bit later for the others. Heck I still will put on a Tenpole Tudor CD an have a blast. Back in my youth enjoyed everything from punk, blitz, ska.protogoth, ah if only I could squeeze into the old bondage pants,,

Now I listen to everything from classical to punk, including alt-country a bit of electronic. Heck I have some Killers, Franz-Ferdinand and Scissor Sisters around and I am on a huge Morrissey/Smiths binge at the moment.

As to the Goth scene .. I enjoy most of the look and a good bit of the music, it kind of takes me back to my youth..

In regards to WICA, I can understand their beliefs and have no problem with them or their religion. From those that I have met I will say that there is no forcing of their views on to anyone, they look beyond the obvious and try to learn about things. I have to say that I have only met about 6 or so Wiccans so I may have just been lucky.



IHAP



Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3412 times:

We need more blond goths!

Seriously I find all of the above shamefully self-absorbed and narcissistic.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineLHMARK From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 7255 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

I really like goth music, but I was never into the aesthetic. That said, some goth chicks are really hot. Viva le corset!


"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
User currently offlineUsairwys757 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

I listened to stuff like ACDC, Nirvana, Metallica, Staind etc but was never really into the goth scene.

Never was a goth, never wanted to be a goth. Thats cool if you were/are though.


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Seriously I find all of the above shamefully self-absorbed and narcissistic.

That just about sums up my opinion of them. I have always found them odd and reclusive, and I don't particularly like punk or goth music. Of course, some people would call me a prep (I shop at Abercrombie  Wink), so they are really a totally different group of people than the ones I hang out with.

The goth and punk girls I completely don't understand. Some could be hot, but they get all dressed up in those clothes and the dark makeup, and really aren't hot at all. Just my opinion.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

The whole Punk Culture is a very healthy and genuine idiology. It is all about allowing personal choice and taking accountability for your own life and the decisions we make. Freedom of expression is an important aspect as well. Punk is all about questioning the status quo, and being proactive in whatever field, rather than just being reactive once something has already happened. Punk isn't about brightly coloured mohawks or wearing pins in our noses and being violent, nor is it about wearing skate clothes, Chuck Taylors and spiking your hair. Both are just style trends that come and go, but dissent and striving for true freedom and democracy will always remain.

Goths have also been much maligned in recent years, and admittedly it tend to attract those with morbid tendencies these days because much of the original ideas have been lost. I have to say I don't know an awful lot about Goths, but because it's about real freedom of choice it is almost certainly a good thing.


User currently offlineHodges From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 138 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

I've got no problem with punks at all. They're music and all around style aint that bad either.

I've got no clue what Wiccans are. Can somebody enlighten me?

Goths on the other hand, I've got a problem with, at least the ones that go to my school. I hate it how they don't want to conform to society but are just conforming to their other goth friends expectations and wants. If they didn't actually conform there would be no term to generally describe them.

Also many of the goths here at my high school are into being sad a lot of the time. Why would someone want to be unhappy all the time? And what's the deal with all the wrist cutting? It's disgusting and there are much better ways to deal with emotional pain or whatever drives them to do such a thing.

I also hate goth music. Bands like Pantera, System of a Down, etc. only yell a lot with really loud bending guitar notes. That's it. Even i could be a singer on one of those bands because I can yell despite the fact that I have no musical talent.

I also hate how the goths at my school are so damn emotional. They need to realize that shit happens in life that you can't always control and to just deal with it. Other people their age have some of the same problems and deal with them without any big problems.

Don't even get me started on the makeup and clothes.

Erik
(Goths would call me a jock even though I've got a 3.7 GPA)



Beer, helping ugly people have sex since 1862.
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I've got no clue what Wiccans are. Can somebody enlighten me?

It's like a fancy term for people who think they are witches. At least the one I know.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

I'm a punk. Seriously, its not all about the look, its more of an ideology. I used to get the whole look going, but not so much anymore. I still wear the black leather jacket, tight jeans, combat boots, and the Ramones shirt, but its not that much out of the ordinary. People like Newark777 talk about how we are all "self-absorbed" and whatever, but what about the preps? Its all about the latest fashions, and alls they care about is themselves and their self-absorbed little cliques.

-Copa


User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 10):
People like Newark777 talk about how we are all "self-absorbed" and whatever, but what about the preps? Its all about the latest fashions, and alls they care about is themselves and their self-absorbed little cliques.

There's a difference between people who are actually punks, like yourself, and those that just wear the clothes and pretend to like the music. There are so many people that just want to fit in, they take on this whole persona just so people will accept them. Then you have the skateboarders, some of which call themselves punks, when they don't even know what that really means.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

Well, I have to agree with you on that one. Real punks are few and far between. The people who listen to Good Charlotte, Yellowcard, etc. and call themselves punks are the ones that piss me off. All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well. Most of it was at its heydey in the late 70s and 80s (Dead Kennedys, Misfits, Black Flag, Ramones, Clash, The Damned, etc.), with some bands still surviving today, (i.e. NOFX, Bad Religion). If you want further proof of this, look at the Warped Tour 2005's lineup. They call themselves a festival of Punk music. I fail to see a single punk band in the lineup. Relient K? WTF is that all about. Well, I'll get off my soap box now.

-Copa


User currently offlineCaptoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Ah Wicca, the religion of those non-conformists who wish to rebel against their parents, and in doing so conform to a group of weiners who, for the most part, don't really understand what they are rebelling against.

Goths, same deal, they are rebelling against something they do not understand. They are trying to seperate themselves from society, and at the same time bitching about not being accepted. The more they bitch about their lack of acceptance the further they try to push themselves from the norm. Most of the goths I know are actually spoiled rich kids who honestly have the absolute least to bitch about. Almost without acception they fall into my "just doesn't get it" classification.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3388 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well.

How are bands on the Vans Warped Tour not "real punk"? Who are you to say that they are not?..just becasue they differ from the bands you are used to?


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3524 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

Quoting Usairwys757 (Reply 5):
I listened to stuff like ACDC, Nirvana, Metallica, Staind etc but was never really into the goth scene.

yeah because right there my friend is the total epitome of goth music.....

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I also hate goth music. Bands like Pantera, System of a Down, etc. only yell a lot with really loud bending guitar notes. That's it. Even i could be a singer on one of those bands because I can yell despite the fact that I have no musical talent.

again, complete and accurate in describing the music those darn goths are listening to....


okay some people need to figure out exactly who they don't like and what they are all about before posting aobut how they don't like them. Goth music could be classified as anything including slipknot, coal chamber, cradle of filth, and the like. But goth music could also be.......anything a Goth Kid listens to? Goth isn't really a genre of music, it's a style.

As for punk, in my younger days (yeah like im really fucking old now right...) i was a scene kid. I wore patches, buttons, goodwill clothes (still do), and a lot of either gear that most people classify as being "punk rock". But back then, i was thinking more that to be punk rock you had to do something in particular.

As I grew up, i realized more and more that being "punk" wasn't about doing what the "punk rock kids" said was punk. It is (from my standpoint) mainly about acting the part of yourself. You know how you feel, you know what you are, so why not be the most accurate depiction of yourself to the people who don't know you. Humans are extremely layered and detailed, and no one person can really know everything about another human being. Which is why you want to present the best "picture" of what you are to other people. not of what they want to see, but of what you want them to see.

But all things aside, Punk is generally associated with music. When i think of a band that i think is the definition of punk rock, i think of Minor Threat (and now Fugazi, which has many of the members from minor threat). True to their fans, true to their word, and most importantly true to their scene. These guys have been in the DC punk scene since the early 80's and they have single handedly kept it going and have not let it die. It's amazing what Ian McKaye and his cronies at Dischord (record label) have accomplished in their 20+ years of being involved in the DC punk scene.


and on a side note, here are some general genres of music (very general, you could get way more specific...) and the bands that relate to them. maybe this will help some of you who obviously can't tell nirvana from AC/DC...

Grunge: Nirvana, Bush, Pearl Jam, Staind
Rock: AC/DC, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen, Bon Jovi,
Metal: old Metallica (Garage Inc. and after NOT included), Manowar, Arch Enemy, Pantera
Hair Metal: Poison, Motley Crue, Great White, Def Leppard
Punk: NOFX, Rancid, Bad Religion
Pop Punk: Green Day, Blink 182, A New Found Glory, Simple Plan
Hardcore: Converge, The Refused, Hot Cross, Botch



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1412 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3297 times:

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
It's disgusting and there are much better ways to deal with emotional pain or whatever drives them to do such a thing.

Its easy to stand on the outside and tell someone there is better ways to deal with something. You don't know what people are dealing with. Self mutilation is a sign of very serious emotional distress.

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I also hate how the goths at my school are so damn emotional.

Emotional expression is healthy. Bottling things up only leads to problems.

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
Other people their age have some of the same problems and deal with them without any big problems.

People deal in different ways and people have different problems. Not every teen has the same problems.



Let people dress the way they want, listen to what they want. Hell, life would be pretty boring if we didn't have people walking around with mohawks or black makeup. Live and let live.


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 14):
All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well.

How are bands on the Vans Warped Tour not "real punk"? Who are you to say that they are not?..just becasue they differ from the bands you are used to?

There were some good bands in that tour, but they were certainly more carefree teenage angst based pop-punk than full strength Anarcho-Punk Rock.

It's like the difference between a 707-300 and a 737-800. They look similar, but the modern version has 2 less engines, isn't as noisy or as smokey, and is easier to fly. Real Punk is Visceral, raw and honest, not manufactured in a So-Cal Studio to sell the most CDs.

I tell you the best concert I went to was NOFX at the Brixton Academy in London. That's an awesome 'old school' venue, and there weren't too many skater punk boppers to lesson that 'Ramones' style London Punk atmosphere. It's the kind of place that has mosh pits that literally crush all those who don't know the correct way to mosh. You tend to leave with less teeth and more broken bones than you went in with if you don't know what you're in for, and where anything less than steel toe Doc boots will leave you with bloody stumps on your feet....lol the good old times. Thats what a lot of us 'purists' mean by calling most of the modern 'punk' bands a lot less in your face and brutal. It's more "I don't mind if you don't like me, if that's ok with you'' than "I don't give a fuck what the hell you think".


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 4):
That said, some goth chicks are really hot.

Ab-so-lutely

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 6):
Some could be hot, but they get all dressed up in those clothes and the dark makeup, and really aren't hot at all.

You should check out www.suicidegirls.com before making that statement



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offline707CMF From France, joined Mar 2002, 4885 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

I will have a question for those who know goths well enough.

Do blind goths use a black stick instead of a white one ?

Cheers,

707


User currently offlineUTA_flyinghigh From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3272 times:

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 4):
That said, some goth chicks are really hot

Wasn't Ovidie gothic at some point in her life ?

UTA  checkeredflag 



Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

aerorobnz- I agree with you 100%. I had the grand opportunity to watch NOFX in San Francisco, and later meet Eric Melvin and Fat Mike. What a great experience. Real punk to me is rebellion; fast, ferocious thrashing, questioning authority. This "emo" business that calls themselves punk whines about emotions. That to me is not punk, but rather the flavor of the week. Flight 152, the Warped Tour is not really "punk" anymore, its trendy and its an emo festival in everything but name. I mean shit, Relient K is all about religious nonsense. How punk is that? oh thats right, not very.

-Copa


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

No problem with Goths, apart from those who act as "wannabe goths"... They really pi$$ me off...

People who dress all black and wear white makeup, but who don't like Gothic music, are like men who'd rather dress up like women than sleep with them.

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
Grunge: Nirvana, Bush, Pearl Jam, Staind
Rock: AC/DC, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen, Bon Jovi,

Agreed, except for the fact that one could make case about the Smashing Pumpkins being punk or grunge.

And the Red Hot Chili Peppers are not really in the same category as Van Halen and AC/DC...

Cheers,

Y.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

i went to high school in Berlin during the late 70s, early 80s, right during the punk movement´s great days. I nerver was a punk (I was always a bit special, prefering jazz, but at the same time, I was growing my hair long, wearing a viking style beard, riding a motorbike, and dressing in jeans, combat boots, khaki shirt and US Army M65 field jacket, no earrings or other piercings for me), but I had several punk friends (and I liked occasionally to dance "pogo" with them during parties, a mix of dancing and rugby style tackling somebody to hard music, great fun!). What I liked about them was their openess and their anarchist political attitude, plus their tolerance. On the other hand they had a will to fight back if necessary. What I didn´t like to much was often their lack of personal hygienics and the resulting pong.

Jan


25 Post contains images Titch : Ummm, no. The Pumpkins were never regarded as 'Punk'. The media tried to lump them in with the Grunge movement, because it was regarded as the 'in th
26 Planespotterx : My problem is I listen to "goth" music, and wear the same stuff as they do, and yet I dont consider myself to be Goth at all. Im just myself I guess,
27 Post contains images Gkirk : Punks and Goths eh....they all need to have a wash, dirty gits that they are
28 Post contains images Titch : Dammit, Kirkie! Ain't you got some Spice Girls CD's to listen to, or something?
29 Kieron747 : Hi, I never used to have an opinion regarding punks and goths, and jees, I grew up in the damn 1980's! My issue is not with the possible religious/soc
30 Planespotting : haha i know. as i said, these are very wide genre categories. I would definitely not say that the Smashing Pumpkins were punk or grunge. SP was a gre
31 British767 : Regarding goths I just think....why are you making yourself so depressed?
32 Planespotterx : Regarding goths I just think....why are you making yourself so depressed? Because many Goths cant associate themselves with society, to be honest its
33 SlamClick : Absolutely the opposite of the truth. They are relentlessly and passionately CONFORMIST> They work very hard at looking like what they label themselv
34 MD11Engineer : Slamclick, I was talking about the original punks back in the late 70s, early 80s. The stuff the guys wore came definitely out of the trash. They ofte
35 Lemmy : Come on. Isn't that using an awfully broad brush to characterize an entire culture? Granted, I think there's something patently absurd about a 15-yea
36 Post contains images Superfly : Some aren't too bad.
37 CaptOveur : Bravo7e7 is going to have you sent off to the cooler for that, if he doesn't gum up his keyboard first.
38 Srbmod : I was born too late for the original waves (NYC, London, SoCal) of Punk (Not really too late for all of them, but I don't think that there were any to
39 Delta717 : Why does the whole world have to be labeled? Why are people judged on how they dressed or what music they listen to? Is our society actually so narcis
40 Post contains images ContnlEliteCMH : I think people should dress how they want, and think what they want, and be in groups that they want -- but this stuff above is just meaningless gobb
41 MaverickM11 : Can't stand 'em. Almost as much as I hate hippies. "Some aren't too bad" That picture is WRONG. I don't like anyone that defines themselves by the way
42 MaverickM11 : And another thing...I love how punks/hippies/goths claim that they're trying to be "different" and "unique" and then they go and hang out with nothing
43 Post contains images Superfly : Hey I never said she was hot.
44 Gigneil : Does anyone here actually remember when U2 was punk? N
45 Aerorobnz : I'm going on the 'Punks' I know, but we don't dress up in Punk tshirts and army boots all the time (I don't even have any piercings or tattoos and a
46 Planespotting : was slam click made fun of by goths/punks as a kid or something? (a joke)
47 F9Widebody : I really don't have much of a problem with Goths or Punks. What annoys me are emo kids. Why would you buy girls pants? WHY?!?! That's just gross. Thei
48 ContnlEliteCMH : Since you ask, no. Secular, yes. Anarchy, no. I believe firmly in the rule of law, to the (natural) exclusion of anarchy or any other form of lawless
49 Lemmy : I was wondering if anything could be more pompous than telling people your "psychologist tested IQ," but that entire post answered my question. Methi
50 SlamClick : I'll admit that I don't know much about punk, I was mostly referring to goth. And no, I don't think so in that case. I don't think much about either
51 PacificWestern : Pompous Aerorobnz is NOT. It was put forth as a fact supporting what he had to say. He's an extremely intelligent and well spoken man. Could it be th
52 Post contains images AA777 : I think its become way too commercialized. It used to be a way to rebel and show whatever.... your lack of conformity. But now so many stupid kids are
53 Post contains links and images Zippyjet : Like every group there are your compassionate good cool souls and then you got your a-holes. But, some punk and goth girls are hot! And don't forget,
54 Post contains links AerorobNZ : I never ever said that dissenting was solely a Punk trait, I said it was an important tool in an efficient democracy and that at times in history whe
55 Lemmy : If you haven't already, check out Greil Marcus' "Lipstick Traces: A Secret History of the 20th Century." In it, Marcus traces strains of radicalism b
56 Sovietjet : I think punks, goths, emo, skaters and all the like are just stupid. Punks...I see them all over my school and they are mostly pretty annoying and don
57 ContnlEliteCMH : It's called "English" -- you know, probably your native tongue if you are an American, a Brit, or an Aussie. My usage thereof was grammatically corre
58 Aerorobnz : It does sound a good read, I'll hunt down a copy. Cheers for the heads up.
59 ContnlEliteCMH : Well said, sir, and I agree. You and I are also in agreement that the "middle ground" in which we presently live between authoritarian rule and lawle
60 Tbar220 : After reading all of this, one question comes to mind. Who are we to judge people, at all? Who are we to impose our negative judgements and sweeping g
61 SlamClick : Exactly! So why is it okay for someone to wear black makeup and clothes to prove to total strangers around them that they are NOT like me?
62 Copaair737 : Sovietjet- I agree with everything you've said. Punk nowadays is a shell of its former self, and many of the "punks" are just dressing that way as a s
63 Aerorobnz : Too bloody right. Believe it or not I do share that philosophy. Life on Earth is far greater than us individually, and indeed even than us as a speci
64 Chris78cpr : I loooooooooooove girls with piercings and tattooos! So if they are into them and the same music as me that is great! Hehe. I love punk/roack/metal/th
65 ContnlEliteCMH : We are people. We are individuals who are part of groups with normative behaviors and habits: families, companies, churches, schools, governments, co
66 Lemmy : Ok, ok, ok. You got me. I'm not very well read. Those years I spent teaching and studying English lit in graduate school were mostly wasted time. Reg
67 CORULEZ05 : I think people should be allowed to do whatever they choose. So, my opinion about these "people" is one of respect. I think they have gotten a bad rep
68 Airlinerfreak : I would have to argue that point because what if you have some low life nazy come about. Are you going to go let him walk around with a big swastika o
69 Tbar220 : ContnlEliteCMH, Ok, I think I understand the point you're making. Perhaps I should have clarified. Everybody judges, on a daily basis, I do it too. Wh
70 ContnlEliteCMH : I'm not sure there is such a distinction between what a person wears, says, and does and the person themselves. Nobody dressed you that morning. Nobo
71 SlamClick : That is my whole point. (And I really don't have any strong feelings about them at all - I just stated an opinion way back up the thread and am respo
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