EGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 32
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1303 times:
Nobody ever said it was a game of high class. Mostly the sport is traditional a working class game, as apposed to rugby which was more for the public school boys. It's not a gentlemans game like Cricket, it's football and it appeals to all aspects of society, so at a football match you get a broad spectrum of people. Naturally in that spectrum you have trouble makers and this is where the trouble in the sport is inherent from.
... hooliganism is a societal issue which manifests itself at, or uses football as its medium. Describing a football hooligan is like describing an alcoholic, there is no distinctive class divide and a thousand routes to the final destination.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
The way in which the mainly Catholic fans of Celtic are viewed by many Scottish fans is legendary. But let's remember that it was a small minority of those present.
I can't stand the violence associated with the game, and still struggle to understand fully why football has this reputation. It seems to attract the worst of society who then make the headlines and spoil the game for the vast majority of civilised, law-abiding, true fans.
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
KLbambie From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 98 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
I didn't see the Milan game last night but I have just read about what happened, an utter disgrace and Inter need to be punished for the action of their fans!
It is well known that Italy has had some problems in the past with football hooligans but then again what country doesn't (no I am not justifying it) unfortunately you are going to get idiots wherever you go in the world! When Scotland played Italy last month in Milan there was on point where it all kicked of in the home support. Expecting to see some silly Scotsman after one to many sherberts swinging his fists the TV footage shows Italians firing flares at each other ???
I agree with Kirkie on the minute silence thing, wasn't very well thought out and what happened, disgusting as it was, was unfortunately always going to happen.
Football and Religion together seem to bring out the worst in people
It's not a reputation problem, it's history: Look at football history, the clubs were not only places where to play football, but places to hang out with your buddies drink beer or other "Scottish" drinks , get shit-faced, then clubber each other to shreds. Even better did it get in places where there were clubs that catered to certain parts of society: Catholics vs. Protestants, Germans vs. Turks, uppermiddle-class part of the town vs. working-class parts etc. Hooliganism and downright battles of the fans were imminent...and we're still far away from being civilised enough to leave that violence behind ( at least the Scots and other Brits are ).
Compare it to rap music and breakdancing...basically the old gang wars continued on a dance floor/behind a microphone, an attempt to get civilised...still, rap musicians kill each other on a regularly basis.
Bad as it is...if football were banned, it'd take 3 days or so for the Engelaenders and the Germans to declare war on each other, for the Scots to commit suicide and for the Italians to move back to Mama and bawl their heads off
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1159 times:
Quoting KLbambie (Reply 8): football hooligans but then again what country doesn't
Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, etc. Football/soccer may not be a major sport in these countries, but the equivalents (hockey in Scandinavia and Canada, AFL football/rugby league in Australia, rugby in NZ, etc.) are definitely less prone to hooliganism than soccer.
At least, it certainly never reaches the absolute lows of Italy, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Germany, the Netherlands, France, England (in the 70's and 80's) and the majority of Africa, South America and now China.
I do not believe in fatality, here. Make the police enforce the law, and things should be fine. English stadiums are incredibly safer now than they were 20 years ago.
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1126 times:
Quoting OYRJA (Reply 15): But Hockey is very popular in Sweden though. But Football is still #1 there Smile But Denmark and Norway doesn't have the same kind of feelings for hockey like the Swedes.
And have you ever witnessed violence inside/outside of stadiums/arenas (not talking of hockey players dropping the gloves and entertaining the crowd, THAT is good!!!!) in some form reminiscent of hooliganism?
OYRJA From Denmark, joined Feb 2007, 78 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1122 times:
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16): And have you ever witnessed violence inside/outside of stadiums/arenas (not talking of hockey players dropping the gloves and entertaining the crowd, THAT is good!!!!) in some form reminiscent of hooliganism?
I have witnessed hooligans 4 matches ago when AGF(Aarhus) was visiting and played against my favorite team Viborg FF. About 10-15 AGF fans went totally nuts.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5816 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1104 times:
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 11): Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, etc. Football/soccer may not be a major sport in these countries, but the equivalents (hockey in Scandinavia and Canada, AFL football/rugby league in Australia, rugby in NZ, etc.) are definitely less prone to hooliganism than soccer.
Interesting observation. I agree with that. Here in the Czech Rep. hockey and football are about 50:50 as far as popularity.
Football hooliganism is a major problem, every game of the major clubs (Ostrava in particular, and of course both PRG teams - everyone hates Sparta Prague) requires police assistance in full riot gear. I think it's about time to let them play at empty stadiums. As a taxpayer who doesn't really care about footbol nor hooligans I don't see a reason to waste money of the police to guard these idiots.
On the other hand you don't see something like that in hockey - and if you do it's very rare minor fight between fans who get a little bit too excited about the game. It is definitely not a whole culture of violence, where the game itself is not of any interest and the stadium is just a stage for the main objective - a fight with the other "fans".
Tickets for hockey and football cost about the same, I can imagine the social background of the spectators will not be that much different from the football ones.
Could it be because there is more action on the ice and it is often sooo damn boring to watch a football game?
The vast majority of us football supporters are decent, law-abiding people. While last night's scenes in Milan were, as people have already said here, absolutely disgraceful and shocking, it is thankfully a minority that behave in that manner. (Although admittedly it might not have looked like that from the TV pictures.)
Iakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3326 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1080 times:
... hooliganism is a societal issue which manifests itself at, or uses football as its medium
I am an all-time neutral football fan and it happens I am in one of those "absolute low" leagues where hooliganism flourishes...and is not fighted.
Being incidentally a friend or relative of "persons in charge" at one of the local (1st division) clubs, I have a permanent invitation and I have used it rather often in the past.
A good friend also happens to be a plain clothes officer whom is always around stadiums (all sorts) when clashes are expected.
Finally, my local grocer runs the hardest of the hardcore fan club.
The loop is complete.
Mostly young lowly educated "citizens" who (most) are struggling to make a living. Individually harmless guys.
Their weekly outing seems to be the only moment in their young lifes when they can release the anger and frustration accumulated during the week.
An open arena, with buddies and identifiable enemies will be the battlefield.
The event is prepared, carefully organized. Two to three hours before the game, the buddies meet in nearby cafés and start getting in the mood.
Twenty minutes before kick off they move in tribes to the stadium, they are loaded like Scots can be, spirits high, voices already broken by the loud warrior chants. Those who are still reasonably fit carry six-packs of 1.5L water bottles.(it is not for drinking though)
I have to leave my cigarette lighter at the police check at the entrance, but the hardcore fans know the tricks and the police just ask questions, they would not risk trying body search.
Always the lame duck and the unvoluntary ignition fuse.
What strikes me is that the clubs' own management do not want to clamp down on their hooligans. One would ask why ?
There is a sound logic in this, follow me.
Everyone who has experienced playing in front of a large crowd knows how it feels to be cheered, and knows the difference between playing at home or on someone else's tuf.
So, for the home team noisy fans are important and will reflect in their performance, does not matter if it comes from 70yr old fishermen or 20yr old dickheads, it happens that the second category is present and loud.
Loud local fans bring points and at the end of the season that translates into money, and it can vary between quite a lot of it or none. (tv contracts, champions league, uefa cup, intertotto cup, advertisement rates, sponsors interest, players value, memorabilia, etc....)
Nowadays, revenues from public attendance are pretty insignificant (here).
The costs of refurbishing the stadium every second week are just covered by the (discounted) season's subscription fees.
Fan's money is uninteresting, their loud presence is warmly welcomed.
Keeping the hardcore from entering the stadium is exactly like giving the guest team a one (or more) goal advantage. Who is the manager who wants this ?