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Let Milo Go  
User currently offlineN400QX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 988 times:

Let Milo Go

The U.N. would love to see some present and former American officials tried for the same sort of crimes as Milosevic.

by MICHAEL LEDEEN
National Review
July 3, 2001 8:25 a.m.



I hate Slobodan Milosevic, and I was all in favor of marching into Belgrade and removing him from power. But I do not revel in his arrest and his impending trial in The Hague at a "war crimes tribunal" created by the United Nations, because I know that lots of folks at the U.N., on bad days even a majority of the Security Council, would love to see some present and former American officials tried for the same sort of crimes in the same docket.

I would hate that, even if it were Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright, hauled up for aiding and abetting genocide in North Korea. And I would hate it even more if it were, as some of the America-haters are urging, George Bush the Elder and his evil henchmen Powell and Cheney, for genocide in Iraq. If you think such events are utterly fanciful you're not spending enough time online with the new New Left. If that crowd has its way, one A. Greenspan will stand trial for mass murder.

That's why all those folks who are gushing and cooing over the wonderful expansion of the "rule of law" had best remind themselves that dreams-come-true often have unintended consequences, although in this case they are certainly not unimagined. The United States refused to sign the Genocide Convention for more than a generation precisely because of such fears, and those resisting included some fairly cautious souls from both parties, from Hubert Humphrey to Jacob Javits and Clifford Case, for example. When we finally signed, we stipulated reservations strong enough to convince several of our close allies that we hadn't really agreed to anything. We insisted that no American can stand trial without the formal approval of the U.S. government, and that in no case can any American be tried for something that is not criminal according to the Constitution. The wise Americans who insisted on such reservations had the same nightmare visions I do. And they insisted that the "rule of law" is best exemplified by the Constitution, and we're not going to expose American citizens to somebody else's view of what is criminal.

The kidnapping of Milosevic and his delivery to The Hague tribunal seems to me utterly unnecessary, because he was going to be tried by his own countrymen (the Genocide Convention, for example, requires enforcement by the nations involved, and permits the creation of special tribunals only when the law is flouted). The seizure of Milosevic was probably carried out to favor one side in the intense internal political struggle between Milosevic's successors in Serbia and the virtual country called "Yugoslavia" (Serbia plus Montenegro), and, more ominously, to show the world that the U.N. — or, in this case, the countries offering financial aid to Serbia — can enforce its will.

Never mind that Milosevic was removed from power by the Serbs (you may recall that, as in Iraq, we shrank from the dirty deed, preferring to leave the scene and hope that good things would happen), and that a duly elected Serbian Government has insisted on its authority over the former tyrant. This is quite different from the situation in Africa, where Rwanda simply lacks the resources to try their own mass murderers; Serbia is able and willing to try Milosevic. We are denying Serbia the same rights we have claimed for ourselves, and it's quite remarkable that so few chatterers and, so far as I can tell, not a single member of the American government, has spoken against the clear violation of Serbian sovereignty. Richard Holbrooke, in a remarkable essay in the Washington Post, regrets only that this happy turn of events was produced by Congressional meddling in foreign policy. Not even Henry Kissinger, who is likely one day to be indicted by one of these self-righteous tribunals (if Lou Lapham and Christopher Hitchens have their way), has denounced it. Is no one concerned that the U.N. — the same bunch that declared Israel guilty of racism, and that removed us from their human rights institutions — may kidnap our citizens and drag them before some self-appointed judge?

The current trend toward trying fallen dictators is thus far limited to the former rulers of small countries, and has a distinct political tinge to it. No one is clamoring for the trial of former Communist tyrants from the Soviet Union or Central/Eastern Europe. The fashionable intelligentsia cheers when Pinochet gets gobbled up, but no one demands that Gorbachev or other Soviet Communists stand trial, as simple intellectual consistency demands. And don't hold your breath waiting for the International Court of Justice to indict Fidel Castro or the vicious regime in Beijing (although you may recall that Fidel was so upset by the indictment of Pinochet that he cut short a trip to Spain and hightailed it back to Havana before some local judge brought charges).

All this is simply one more example of the global victory of the legal class. The lawyers and judges are asserting their supremacy over all possible competitors for power, from the businessmen to the politicians and the generals and colonels. They have claimed the authority to decide who gets indicted, and who enforces "the rule of law," here and everywhere. The politicians, who mostly come from the legal class, aren't inclined to contest the issue. The military, at least north of the Equator, accepts civilian rule. Who is left to defend us against the impending assault of politicized lawyers with a grudge against America?

Maybe we should enlist the trial lawyers. Somebody should tell them that if this trend continues, all the fees from the "patients' bill of rights" boondoggle will go to some attorneys in Brussels or the Netherlands. Then we might get to see a real fight.
-------------------------------------------------

I agree and it would be very scary if the United States signed on to this damn international court. But the government has never had too much regret when they go against the Constitution.



36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUA767-223 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 931 times:

I guess all those mass graves had nothing to do with it?



User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13194 posts, RR: 77
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 929 times:

While Kissinger has questions to answer, a 'War Crimes' trial would be excessive. Not even Capt. Calley, if he is still alive, the officer ultimitely reponsible for the Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam, would be a candidate. We are talking about systematic, state-directed genocide here.
It's so easy, safe in a country which has not known war on, or near it's soil since the 1860's, to be dismissive of such an important event, which in Europe at least, has broad support across the political divides.
There are many others who should be there, but the fact they are not, should not stop the attempts to bring these scum to trial.
There's some tyrants who are very worried now, after all, not many thought that Slobbo would end up in the slammer.
The Hauge is a suitable setting, Holland has a fine legal tradition.
The US is not the only nation of laws.
As for a trial in Serbia, there are many dangers, after all. Slobbo controlled all aspects of the state for many years. It's unlikely that all of his cronies have been rooted out.
Or he could to vunerable to assassination.
All this nonsense talk of 'leftist plots', ever heard of rights AND responsibilities? Works for nations as well as citizens.



User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 922 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

first of all - Slobo was prosecuted in Serbia not for war crimes, but for financial malversations (and this was not "Al Capone trial" way to get him prosecuted for war crimes using other crimes as excuse) SECOND - why should american officials have "GOD" status - if crimes are commited in othere country these should be prosecuted - if in country of origin then OK, but if not then there should be International court


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 916 times:

I agree with you, Tomislav. American officials who commit crimes against humanity should face the same scrutiny.

User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 912 times:

""Slobbo controlled all aspects of the state for many years. It's unlikely that all of his cronies have been rooted out.""

Another downfall of socialism/communism.


User currently offlineAA767Boy From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 15 hours ago) and read 912 times:

He's just a BAD BAD man!

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 898 times:

All this shows is that you have to remain powerful to protect both your citizens and your leaders....

Let those defense dollars roll.

Seriously though, the soverginty issues are serious ones and I don't think the US is as willing to part with theirs as some European nations seem to be.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 895 times:

I can see parallels with this and with the US refusing to hand over the officer accused of rape in Okinawa.....


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 890 times:

No....

In the case of the happenings on Okinawa, the US and the Japanese government have a SOFA. Which stands for Status of Forces Agreement. This agreement governs the conduction of personel in that country and sets the rules for who is in charge when a crimial matter come up.

There is no such agreement between NATO, The US, or the UN and Serbia.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 887 times:

>>>Let Milo Go

Would you have said the same about a certain Mr. Adolf H.?

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 883 times:

First I have to argue with absurd notion that President Clinton or President Bush being "charged" with such idiocy. The author misses one, big, important difference between Clinton and Bush on one side, and this scumbag Milosovich on the other: Milosovich murdered his own people in cold blood. Clinton and Bush didn't exterminate anyone. And his potshot at President Bush over Iraq was just sour grapes. Mr. Bush stated clearly from the beginning that we weren't in Kuwait to occupy Iraq, and he was true to his word.

As for this assertion that he was "kidnapped", it seems to me that he was arrested by his own people, and they are the one that sent him to the U.N. If they wanted to exact their own justice, why didn't they keep him? I think they'd rather have the U.N. make a martyr of this lunatic, then having to do it themselves.

As for executing Milosovich, I think he'd get the easy way out. I think the U.N. should lock him up in a 3 x 5 cell for the rest of his life, like a caged animal. Let him go berserk in there.

And, of course, N400QX doesn't like this court: it's made up of all those foreigners at the U.N. N400QX, what is your view on Milosovich? Why are you so against him facing some kind of justice for being the Hitler-wannabe that he is?


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 881 times:

Alpha 1

Before Milosovich was disposed they did swear out murder and genocide charges against klinton, Albright, And the General in charge of NATO.

Likewise I belive that Lybia did hold a trial against several Reagan officals including Cap Wienbuger and others for murder regarding that air raid against them in 1983?

So it isn't that far fetched of an idea.

All this goes to show is that if you go to war you must WIN otherwise stuff like this happens.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 876 times:

Another reason why I have no respect for you L-188. You can spell Milosovich's name right, but then you purposely spell Mr. Clinton's wrong. Grow up a little and get over your childish behavior. That kind of stuff impresses no one.

User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 876 times:

The editorial is sensational and manipulative. It's not even worth arguing many of the author's suppositions.

The U.S. must come to terms with justice, however. The U.S. cannot continue to act as judge and jury for the rest of the world. We are no more "God's chosen people" than the citizens of Chad. Other nations have begun to embrace this notion. It's time Americans started thinking about this.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 854 times:

Alpha 1.....

Believe it or not......Impressing you is not the most important thing in my life at the moment.

Actually to get Milo's name right I had to look up on an earlier post  Laugh out loud



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 851 times:

Actually, not to be nitpicky, but it is Milosevic.

But anyway, to those people who are against Milosevic being tried for crimes against humanity, let me ask you this.

In 1945, after the end of World War 2, Adolf Hitler is captured. Who will try him? After all, he has not broken any German laws. He also has not broken any laws of other country's, because after all, he was on German soil the whole time. Also, in Germany at the time, there was no way on earth that Hitler would have had a trial which was not biased by people with views for and against his.

The International Court of Justice has proven itself to be bipartisan, and as such, have no problem with an Australian, American, Nigerian, Antiguan, or whoever, being tried in front of it.

To those American who are against such "international courts", who would you rather have your servicemen who fought and were captured in Vietnam tried in front of? A North Vietnamese court, or the International Court of Justice????


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 839 times:

I don't give a damn about you impressing me, but you have absolutely no class. You can call that mass murderer by his right name, but you have the arrogance, because of your petty hates not even to spell Mr. Clinton's name right. I guess you have more respect for a man who has committed genocide. You need to grow up, and get over Clinton.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 839 times:

Interesting.....

Aviatsiya:

Would you have allowed Austrailian troops been prosecuted by an international war crime tribunal or a North Vietnamese court for any "war crimes" Aussie troops commited in Nam?

I didn't think so.

International courts have a history of convicting or aquiting with the prevailing international setiment. Not what is right or wrong.

Alpha 1

See there you just proved my point to Aviatsiya. You allready have the man convicted and hanged. That is because that is the prevailing setiment put on the news. He is only charged, he has not been convicted.

I don't think the man is innocent but I do believe that is guilt has allready been pre-ordained by the "international court" This is just window dressing.


Avit: I hope I spelled your name right.....Johans forum doesn't display previous posts if you go back and correct something........I rewrote this about twice.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 836 times:

You don't even get what I'm talking about, L-188, do you. You show more respect for this mass-murderer, and that's what he is, than a president of your own country who you harbor these petty hatreds against. You are an arrogant man.

I think all the mass graves in Serbia are make him guilty. Or, is it simply becasue a bunch of foreigners are going to stand judgement on him that makes you give him some benefit of the doubt? Your mistrust of anything "international" is right out of the far right-wing's handbook in this country. It would be very funny if it were't so idiotic.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 836 times:

Hey....I never said Milo wasn't guilty....In fact I believe the opposite.

But

1. He is due his day in court.
2. He is not being tried by his countryman aka his peers
3. One could make the argument that he was ransomed by the current Serbian government. Basicly sold to the war crimes tribunal for international aid.

What is so wrong about being tried by a "jury of your peers?" I don't believe an international jury could ever be made up of your "peers"




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 833 times:

Oh I forgot number four

I belive that the outcome of this tribunal is allready pre-determined.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 831 times:

So, do you believe that at Nuremburg, it was a sham to try Goering and Co. the way they did? Because it, too, was an international tribunal, that, under your definition was not made up of their "peers". Frankly, I don't think Serbia has the balls to try the man themselves, that's why they handed him over.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 831 times:

I'm siding with Alpha here (surprise!). Milosovic would have gotten off, or maybe probation or something ridiculous like that had he been tried in Yugoslavia. The Tribunal will be fair, I expect.

It is unfortunate that the Serbian government bent the rules (or actually broke them) to send Milosevic to the Hague. If that aid conferance had been held a month or two later, he would probably have been sent anyway, legal and clear. As it is, now the newly democratic government of Yugoslavia is about to collapse over the issue.

Charles


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (13 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 824 times:

I would have to call Nuremburg a rigged event also.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 L-188 : I dont' want to call it that but that is the conclusion I have to come up with.
26 Post contains images Alpha 1 : You're getting out there with N400QX here, L-188. It wasn't rigged. That's the conservative, anti-internationalists in you talking there. The evidence
27 L-188 : I said I didn't like calling it that..... But I do have to wonder if one of them had been wrongfully accused how would they have faired againtst a thr
28 L-188 : Legitimate question........Boy, I must be getting tired!
29 Aviatsiya : Would you have allowed Austrailian troops been prosecuted by an international war crime tribunal or a North Vietnamese court for any "war crimes" Auss
30 L-188 : I pulled this gem off the CNN site. It is basicly about how the Belgians are taking it upon themselves to prosecute (or persecute, depending on your v
31 Alpha 1 : Now THAT, L-188, is one I will agree with you on! Seems like Belgium wants to play "World Cop" in a way the the U.S. wouldn't even consider. If Belgiu
32 L-188 : Yes....I am against that world cop mentality. I just don't see a difference between what Belgium is doing and what the International Tribunal is doing
33 Alpha 1 : But, the diff in the case of our friend Slobodon is that his country turned him over of their own free will. They had to be pressured into it, but the
34 N400QX : Whew-- I forgot about this thread and I have a lot of catching up to do... I'll be back later.
35 AgnusBymaster : N400QX---Neither you, nor the article, address this point: Which is more important---denying the possibility of a fair trial to a man who is either di
36 Joona : Milosevic needs to be executed immediately, today, right now. Does he need justice? Did those thousands of people killed by him get justice? No. So wh
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