JCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 43 Posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1690 times:
Today marks the fifth anniversary of former attorney general Janet Reno and former president Bill Clinton doing the most noble of tasks, sending the SWAT team into Elian's relatives' house in Miami, "rescue" Elian Gonzalez and send him back to Cuba. Why was it so noble you ask? Well, a communist dictator demanded he be returned to his father (who Elian and his mother had little contact at all with). Today, Elian Gonzalez is part of Cuban propaganda, how they got over on the United States. He's a trophy of Fidel's. Not only that, but he gets to live on a magical little island ninety miles south of Florida that does not have free speech, free press, elections, apartheid (yep...racism is alive and well in Cuba), has a corrupt government, and a standard of living far below that of America.
Here's an interesting question, do you really believe that the liberals would've been protesting so vehemently about Elian staying America if he was a black South African returning to an apartheid-era South Africa? What if he was a Jew being sent back to Nazi Germany? I'm not trying to play the race card here, but do really think that the Reverend Jesse Jackson would've been begging to send a black kid back to South Africa?
I know a lot of you are going to say so what. Let's put it this way, knowing what we know about Cuba, would you rather go back to a father you barely even knew in a communist dictatorship or would you rather stay in a free America with your relatives.
America should be ashamed of its actions five years ago today.
According to the CIA factbook, Cuba has literacy and life expectancy rates that are similar to the US's, much lower AIDS rates, etc. There is not nearly as much money in Cuba as there is in the US, and it's pretty clear that the US is a better country to live in, but Cuba would seem to be a better option than some other countries in the world (most of Africa comes to mind).
Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter): Not only that, but he gets to live on a magical little island ninety miles south of Florida that does not have free speech, free press, elections, apartheid (yep...racism is alive and well in Cuba),
Hadn't heard about apartheid there. Got any links? Not that I'm doubting you (well, I guess I am in a way, but I'm interested in more information).
Come down to it, and this is going to sound sort of strange, but I don't think that there was much reason for him to be in the country over any other immigrant. His father wanted him back, and that is his legal judgement to make (is this starting to sound like the Schiavo case to anyone else?). And while it would be nice if the US could take in every person that showed up on it's shores, we can't. And so a good portion of them get sent home.
I'll need to look up the case some more.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1668 times:
Errrm - weren't they just upholding the law, and returning the child to his father ? The ugly part of the whole affair was Cuban exiles and his mother's money-grubbing family holding this kid hostage so they could appear on Oprah, while depriving him of his only surviving parent. It was pretty sick.
Schoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 28 Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1641 times:
In other news, international terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, who is still wanted in Venezuela for the bombing of a Cubana Airlines plane in 1976 that killed 73 people, has been able to enter the US without any anti-terrorism alarmbells going off. He currenlty lives in Florida as a free man. The facts that his anti-Castro terror activities were sponsored by the CIA back in the seventies plus the fact that George H.W. Bush was the director of the CIA during those years, probably play a large role in why this international terrorist is not given the same treatment as other, mostly Muslim people who often have been detained on far less substantiated suspicions regarding terrorism then Mr Posadas, who has a long history of terrorist activities, especially on U.S. soil.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1631 times:
Today, is the fifth anniversary, of Elian Gonzalez being released from those here in the U.S., i.e., the Cuban community, and right wing nuts like Jcs and others, who used this boy as a political football.
Today, is the 5th anniversary that he was released from his near-hostage state by those who said they were promoting "freedom", by keeping the boy from his father, who wanted him back.
Today is the 5th anniversary of when Reno and Clinton, after weeks and weeks of being patient with his captors, did the right thing, and returned him to his father, the only relative that really cared about him beyond making him an anti-Castro puppet.
Today is the 5th anniversary of the GOP, the alleged party of "Family Values", getting what it deserved when it deliberately tried to keep a little boy from his biological father, all in the name of politics against a nation that isn't a threat to anyone anymore.
Today is the 5th anniversary that the American Cuban Community, who, by the way, has no intention of going back to Cuba after Fidel is gone, got their just reward for saying they're for "freedom", when, at the same time, conspiring to hold a little boy prisoner here in this nation, all to score political points in Washington.
Jcs, it's another reason why I hold you in such contempt, I must say.
Btw, it's not like he "barely knew his father". His father knew Elian quite well, thank you, and your wacked-out, right-wing horse crap doesn't change that fact. He is where he belongs-with his father, not with some creepy relatives who weren't concerned about him, but more concerned about making a name for himself.
I, for one, was glad of the outcome. The fact that Jcs, and others like him, still mourn the day a little boy was sent back to his rightful guardian, all because they don't like the politics of the nation his father is from, tells you the utter hypocrisy of people like them, who say they stand for "family values."
The fact you're in such mourning over this, Jcs, makes me jump for joy.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1611 times:
The 'end result' - the boy being back with his Father where he legally and rightfuly belonged because there was no reason, no proof, no inkling that his Father had anything but love and best intentions for the boy - is good and decent.
The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.
Mia From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 862 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1605 times:
The last time I was in Cuba I met the young man at mass. I have family that goes to the same church as they do in Cardenas. He is a normal young man and his father is a normal Cuban, nothing special. I am glad he is with his fathe instead of his 'family' from the United States.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1597 times:
Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3): In other news, international terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, who is still wanted in Venezuela for the bombing of a Cubana Airlines plane in 1976 that killed 73 people, has been able to enter the US without any anti-terrorism alarmbells going off. He currenlty lives in Florida as a free man. The facts that his anti-Castro terror activities were sponsored by the CIA back in the seventies plus the fact that George H.W. Bush was the director of the CIA during those years, probably play a large role in why this international terrorist is not given the same treatment as other, mostly Muslim people who often have been detained on far less substantiated suspicions regarding terrorism then Mr Posadas, who has a long history of terrorist activities, especially on U.S. soil.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1580 times:
The more I read what Jcs wrote, and the more I listen to some Republicans on this issue and the Schiavo issue, it's quite obvious of one thing: there are far too many Republicans who only believe in "family values" when it suits their purpose, and doesn't somehow get tangled up in issues they have trouble comprehending, like a 15-year comatose state, or when Cuba, and theire so-1960's aversion of the island is concerned.
CaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1571 times:
I kind of agree with the Clinton move of sending the little bastard back to Cuba.
He had family there. In fact his dad was somewhat signifigant in the government. So the kid probably lives a pretty good life. I think the rights of an immediate parent are stronger than those of a cousin or a grandparent or whatever.
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8): The more I read what Jcs wrote, and the more I listen to some Republicans on this issue and the Schiavo issue, it's quite obvious of one thing: there are far too many Republicans who only believe in "family values" when it suits their purpose
asbo-friggin-lutely. It is hard to take a group that flip flops on issues to suit their purpose seriously. In the Schiavo issue the law was pretty clear, when someone gets married their parents lose all control over them. Her husband was calling the shots for her at that point so it should have been a no brainer for the courts. Granted, if her parents hadn't made a stink you would have never heard a peep about this on the news. The same situation happens somewhere probably every day and it goes down without a hitch.
Same with the little Cuban. He had family that wanted him back in Cuba, immediate family, a father. A father that wants a kid has a stronger claim than a grandmother or an aunt, or uncle, or cousin who wants the kid, that isn't only the legal position, it is also the ethical position.
The situation would have been totally different if he was almost certainly going to be killed if he was sent back. That was not the situation so it is a good thing he went.
...and since when do you care about racism?
Interesting you see that considering you've never even been there. I've been to Cuba and I didn't experience the racism as I sometimes have to deal with here in my own country, United States.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19700 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5): The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.
Agreed, but if I remember correctly, it eventually came to the point where that was the only way they were going to get him out. When people resist the orders of the government, eventually the government is going to have to use force. His grandparents could have avoided that by giving up the kid when the government made the ruling.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
I vacationed in Cuba during the Elian-era, and his picture was plastered everywhere. Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.
Cubans live poor 3rd world existances. The return of Elian to a father who was forced to demand his return by a totalitarian regime was sickening. He should have been allowed to stay in the US. Elian has been handed a life-time poverty sentence by his return to Cuba. No father would freely wish this for his own son.
Does this mean you support international terrorists that blow up airliners killing innocent civilians? Just wondering...
Oh, and please Captainvoyeur: can't you come op with something a bit more original than the Obsession-pic? How about putting your feelings in actual words? Afterall, this is a discussion-board, not an image-board.
Now I imagine I might be asking you a pretty difficult thing, given your track-record on this board, but at this stage I'd even prefer a "Go f@ck yourself, Schoenorama!" kind of answer, then having to look at that bleedin' Obsession pic in 9 out of 10 of your posts!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1549 times:
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12): I vacationed in Cuba during the Elian-era, and his picture was plastered everywhere. Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.
You don't think, Yyz, if a young American was being held against his father's will in another nation, that HIS picture wouldn't be plastered all over this nation? He IS a Cuban, and I'd have acted just like the Cuban people, if roles were reversed.
He belongs there, it's his home-despite Jcs's belittling of something he knows nothing about. His picture should have been plastered everywhere.
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12): Cubans live poor 3rd world existances. The return of Elian to a father who was forced to demand his return by a totalitarian regime was sickening.
So they're not as rich as Americans, Yyz. That's not a reason to keep a child from his father, is it, unless you're a "family values" hypocrite like Jcs.
And what proof do you have, beyond your own right-leaning bigotry to think his father was "forced" to do anything? Far as I can tell, he was doing exactly what I would have done in his place-fight to get my child back from people who had never met him, and did not know him.
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12): How dare the US return an innocent 6-yo boy to such an environment.
How dare people like you try to force "freedom" on anyone, especially a little 5 year old, who didn't have the first clue what was going on with him.
Maybe you'll understand that when you're a parent, Yyz717, like I am. What? I don't count, because I beat my kids? Oh, I forgot. My bad.
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1548 times:
Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter): do you really believe that the liberals would've been protesting so vehemently about Elian staying America if he was a black South African returning to an apartheid-era South Africa?
That's an irrelevant comparison - how many South Africans attempted to migrate to the US (or anywhere else) on an oil drum ? Even during the apartheid era, SA had a FAR greater influx of refugees from Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique etc etc than ever actually left - those who left did so for political rather than economic reasons, in order to join the "armed struggle" in neighbouring states. I would estimate that probably as many young whites left SA for Europe, North America or Australia to avoid compulsory national service in the SADF, and they all left on legitimate visas or residence permits for their destination country.
Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13): Does this mean you support international terrorists that blow up airliners killing innocent civilians?
No, it means I don't see the connection to a Cuban kid who needed to be sent home to guys flying planes into buildings. With the scarce resources our border patrol, INS, FBI and a few other important sounding agencies have they have to pick their battles. They actually KNEW where to look for Elian so they got him, and sent him back. As for the guy you claim is living in Florida. Maybe he made a deal that allowed our police to nab someone far more dangerous in exchange for his freedom. Maybe he is just not seen as a threat. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to build a case against him. Maybe he is being watched in the hopes he leads us to someone bigger. Honestly I don't have a clue what the deal is but if it was as easy and simplistic as you make it sound something would be done if the guy was a threat.
I guess you haven't seen the slums here in the Unites States either. You and I both have been to Cuba and it reminded me a lot of the slums of any major U.S. city minus the crime and street gangs. I saw the murals of Elian all over the place too.
I am glad that Elian was reunited with his father. Had this child came from Haiti or Black Cuban he would have been returned instantly without any media attention. Wish the Feds had threw those low-life scumbags in South Florida in the slammer!
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12331 posts, RR: 12 Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1529 times:
One of the few times I was ever so angry at my USA government or it's leaders was when Elian was siezed by force by Federal Marshalls in Miami so to be able to be returned to his father in Cuba. As a picture posted above shows, those in the home where Elian was in could have had major weapons - but they didn't and if somebody was stupid, then Elian and a lot of his Miami extended family could have been killed or wounded.
Yes, one can argue that Clinton was a bit 'soft' as to Castro, and the Ex-Cuban community still has a death hate for Castro for good reason. I also don't like this double standard where we welcome Cubans illegally to our courntry while if a Hatian or from the Dominican Republic and 'black', you get sent back with no questions.
While I do agreee that Elian should have been returned to his father, it should have been done in a far less confrontational way. Unfortuntaly, the Cuban and anti-Castro community, including then Governor Jeb Bush were using Elian as a media tool, but to keep him here could have set up problems in other ways. What if an American citizen child in a custody dispute had been brought to Cuba and we didn't return Elian? Even though we would put up a huge stink to get that child back we would be in a bad position to negotiate. That is the terrible dillema of the Elian story.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1530 times:
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19): Like I said, Elian was handed a life-time sentence by the child-less uncaring she-man Janet Reno and her blow-job-seeking boss Bill Clinton.
You don't know crap about children, that is obvious, Yyz717. To Elian, Cuba is one thing-home. And if he had been forced to stay here, he would have been a trophy for right-wing wanna-be's like yourself, and other right-wing hanger's on, who's moral words about "family values" only go as far as 89 miles from the coast of the U.S.
Again, if ever you're lucky enough to have children, maybe you'll understand Elian's dad a little better. But I doubt it-you're so full of right-wing propoganda, that you'll never see straight anyway.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1518 times:
Yes, Superfly, Yyz pulls the same old chestnut out of the fire that a lot of the right wing nuts pull out when against a wall-bring up Clinton's blowjob. It's so much easier than discussing the issue, even if it has no relevance to his properly sending Elian back to his home.
Unfortunately, Jcs can't fathom that ANYONE would want to live-or SHOULD live anywhere else but the good old U S of A. It's beyond his limited world knowledge and comprehension that some people actually LIKE to live where they do, even if it is poor, and not the land of the free. It's truly mystifying to him, so he justifies holding a CHILD hostage, all in the name of a whacked-out political dogma, and the fact he doesn't know much beyond his own borders.
As for Yyz, I don't know what's up with him. I still think he's an American wanna-be or something.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38503 posts, RR: 80 Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1511 times:
I've heard Yyz717's rants on this issue before. I wonder why he visited Cuba since he thinks it's a hell hole he makes it out to be.
Castro certainly has his faults and all but Cuba is far from the wasteland that some like to make it out to be.
To me Cuba seemed like one big happy ghetto.
It's poor but the people are nice and like to have a good time. People are educated, in good health, really in to the arts (music, dance, poetry, paintings, acting) and live a very humble existence.
I don't know what Yyz717's experience was but I statyed away from the 'resorts' geared for tourist and no way did I waste my time in Veradero.
I hung out with the locals and got a taste of Cuba without taking 'guided tours' on air conditioned buses with other non-Cuban tourist.
I had a great time and I will go back. I just won't tell until I return.
By the way, I've been to Haiti they are MUCH worse off than Cuba.
Bring back the Concorde
25 VSLover: thanks for reminding me why i supported his return to his father...he had a family, the us government has no place in deciding if it is a "good enough
26 Tom in NO: Count me as one registered Republican who had no problems with Elian being taken back to Cuba to be with his father; and as one who was most disappoin
27 Dvk: While there were many complicating factors in this case, the trump card was that Elian's father wanted him, and there was no evidence that he was a ne
28 787: The puppet master and the puppet. The loser in all this is Gonzalez as he was used by Castro more than he would ever have been by the American Cuban c
29 Superfly: 787: Oh give it a rest! I am glad the kid is with his father. I am glad the U.S. didn't allow a state sanctioned kidnapping.
30 Yyz717: And you do? Do you think being an American tourist in Cuba with your pockets full of American cash really gives you an insight into how Cubans live?
31 Airlinelover: Superfly, if Elian had been able to stay (which he SHOULD have) it would not have been "State sanctioned". The fact that his mother died trying to bri
32 Superfly: Yyz717: Give it a rest. Airlinelover: Chris my friend, our immigration policy regarding Cubans is the main problem. The Cuban American mafia already h
33 Schoenorama: Who said anything about guys flying planes into buildings? Anyway, if you really meant to point out you didn't see a connection, then why didn't you
34 MD11Engineer: I assume that, if the kid would have been returned right away, as the international custody agreement (which the US signed) prescribe, without any ide
35 JCS17: Tell that to the Cubans who are caught by the Coast Guard just a few miles off the coast from Key West and are returned to Cuba. I'm pretty sure thos
36 Superfly: Total B.S. Jcs17. What ever right-wing anti-Castro source you get that from, just throw it away. The hotel I stayed at had many Afro-Cubans working t
37 Sacflyer: Hey 787, Here is another politician taking advantage of a child who was kidnapped - and raped! http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C485034061%2C0
38 JpetekYXMD80: Would like to see this situation today with a Saudi Arabian refugee. Would like to see Bush deal with a similar situation with a great 'ally' orf ours
39 787: And this just today in the news----Elian frequently appears in public alongside his father, today is the first time he has given an address at an even
40 Schoenorama: ¡Qué emoción! Tears in my eyes, really! /sarcasm Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Elian doesn't want to be used 'for the Cuban cause', fro
41 787: It has. I do not. Never! Agreed. It's Castro I am critical of. Gonzalez is just a pawn and a puppet. What don't you understand about that? Thank you
42 Superfly: 787: Well who started it? It wasn't Castro. Fidel Castro will make a big deal out of every little victory he has over the US government and he has goo
43 Schoenorama: I know Elian Gonzalez is just a pawn and a puppet. What worries me is people like you accusing Castro of using the kid while you do absolutely the sa
44 Superfly: 787: I can link images too you know. Here is a photo of him with his father, whare he belongs. Had Elian stayed here in the United States: . . . . . .
45 Homer71: OMG, Superfly! I'm changing my stance, Clinton did the right thing!