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Slobs, Pan Handlers And Your Dregs Of Society  
User currently offline787 From Italy, joined Jan 2000, 292 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Well, I have had it! I am sick of these miserable people who are always looking for a handout as though they were entitled to anything they can get. No, I am not talking about those who are in genuine need and need our help, I am talking about your dregs of society with all their smell and screaming at the top of their lungs with their deep seeded mental issues that take no offense at getting into your face with their pathetic drivel who refuse to take any legitimate help to help them overcome their needs and could careless about you and our society. Scum, plain and simple.

Today I saw a well dressed person get accosted by one of these mangy scum, and what happened next made me aware that I have little pity for these people. I won’t go into detail but I am sure the public at large will foot the soap and hospital bill for this low life who thought he could get what “he wanted” from a person he accosted on the street corner. Life indeed sucked for him today and perhaps he will think twice about his aggressive pan handling the next time he is out on the street. Assuming if he ever leaves the hospital. I have never seen a victim become the aggressor so fast.

And the well dressed person? He disappeared into the crowd. A crowd that also seemed to care less. And what did this vagrant do? He spit in the face of the man who had politely told him no spare change.

What a sad day for all of us who saw this. The well dressed man, certainly for the pan handler, and for all of us who could care less about vagrants who roam the streets. Where is the civility? Mine and theirs.

[Edited 2005-04-30 05:13:47]


787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Yeap,

Like I said in my post on 3rd parties, everyone should have the right to be whatever they want until it DIRECTLY affects someonelse. The pan handler got off lucky with a beating as far as I'd be concerned for spitting on ANYONE, no matter who scraggily or well dressed they were. Should "we" be paying his hospital bill? I dunno, yes, but we ought to make it clear to him that he needs to be a better part of society, not a part of the problem in disrespecting others.


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

One of the interesting parts about visiting Japan was that there are vagrants on the streets of Tokyo and Yokohama. For a country that prides itself on industriousness and perseverance that doesn't set a good face forward.

However, unlike the aggressive vagrant 787 described, the ones in the Japanese cities seem to keep to themselves, I have never seen such a depressing sight in all my life. They were mostly elderly people who probably lost everything they owned to creditors or something. I suspect that even if the government tried to help these people they would refuse assistance because they may adhere to a strict 'honor' code. Most of you who have tried to give old-fashioned Asian people money know what I'm talking about.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1388 times:

Sad but true. My standard response to a panhandler, “The only way I know to get money is to work for it.”

Reactions have varied greatly, but one I recall, “I hope your idea of work is not pounding the pavement asking strangers for money.”


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

[quote=FlyingTexan,reply=3]Sad but true. My standard response to a panhandler, “The only way I know to get money is to work for it.”

Reactions have varied greatly, but one I recall, “I hope your idea of work is not pounding the pavement asking strangers for money.”



Most of the people on the streets in the US are causulties of the Reagan Administrations closing of or cutting funding to the nations mental health care institutions. How many of these people where just thrown out onto the streets is not known, but it was a crime!

So, your going to tell me that this is not the case...well let's just check out the Lafayette Clinic in Detroit, Eloise in Wayne County, and the Northville Hospital, all closed due to a lack of funding.....what do you think happened to the residents? Where do people go now that can not cope?


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1352 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 3):
I hope your idea of work is not pounding the pavement asking strangers for money

At SR-434 and I-4 there is a couple who are always panhandling, from expose's I have seen it's a decent living save the benefits  Sad

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
well let's just check out the Lafayette Clinic in Detroit, Eloise in Wayne County, and the Northville Hospital, all closed due to a lack of funding.....what do you think happened to the residents? Where do people go now that can not cope?

This is where the matter gets REALLY grey. Let's take someone who genuinely is sick and needs to be institutionalized and compare them to someone who's a little sick and wants to be instituionalized instead of working. Given the more art VS science nature of psychology today; how do you tell them appart? It's sad that it SEEMS that previous administrations have apparently sided on saving money; the truth of the matter is it's anybody's guess how many people in real need were affected.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1345 times:

The current mental health system consists of institutions with a revolving door that put folks back on the street with insufficient support.

I do not support panhandlers now, though I admit I've thrown a few coins their way in the past. If they are hungry, maybe give them food. As I understand, few who state they will work for food actually do it. They know it is less threatening for people to just hand them money.

There was a case not too long ago about a panhandler who fought another panhandler off the corner where he regularly hung out, and at the end of the day walked a couple of blocks to his car and drove to his nice house. He was clearing a few hundred bucks a day. I don't have a reference to this, though.

As an aside, I don't think we should lump the plight of the homeless with panhandlers. I've met too many people who went from having a job, family & home to losing it all. Often their fall was due to a flaw, like alcoholism. Sometimes it was a layoff, subsequent loss of home, or illness that sent them reeling.

Many people experience homelessness for a period in their lives. Many of these folks are trying desperately to get their lives back on track, and many are able to succeed with a bit of help.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1342 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 6):
I do not support panhandlers now, though I admit I've thrown a few coins their way in the past.

Same here until I watched the expose's on them

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 6):
As I understand, few who state they will work for food actually do it.

Try none!!

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 6):
Many people experience homelessness for a period in their lives.

I Have  Sad thankfully it was more technicality then anything else, but I had to face the prospect of having nothing for a while, and it wasn't fun at all. I didn't beg anyone for anything, just worked hard and got myself together. Now I'm Married, with two kids, a newer car (04) and a mortgage..


User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1341 times:

Sydney got rid of them all for the Olympics.

Kidding! (Sorta.)

I think we all need to understand that rarely do people choose to become vagrants. There are of course exceptions - but I once knew of a man who chose to live as a homeless person because he had lost every single member of his family to a gun weilding maniac. He felt so utterly despressed that he removed himself from mainstream society and lived under a bridge for 10 years until he died. Remember - there is usually more to a person that what you first may see.

That said - it does not excuse crime or wanten public menacing - it simply sometimes explains it.

Quoting 787 (Thread starter):
legitimate help to help them overcome their needs and could careless about you and our society.

Sorry to nit-pick, but shouldn't it be '...couldn't care less...' - as opposed to '...could care less...' which implies some degree of care?

QFF


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11534 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

Portland seems to have the most polite homeless population in the country. They ask for change, we say "no" and everyone moves on. If they do engage me in conversation and they seem reasonably intelligent, I will kick them a buck, but if they just ask for change, I say no. They are way more aggressive in Seattle. They get in my face in Seattle. What really bothers me is some of the beggars think it is their God given right to stand at the top of freeway off-ramps holding signs about how destitute they are. Soccer moms/NASCAR dads will give them a few bucks and sometimes chit-chat with them. That holds up traffic behind them and some of the money goes to drugs, alcohol and/or cigarettes. Some beggars in Portland sued the police for harassment and the Oregon Supreme Court actually said for the police to harass them is a violation of free speech! What a crock! It is a traffic problem!

But, it is true that some of the beggars choose to be on the streets while others are there because they somehow were overlooked by the system.

GO CANUCKS!!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offline787 From Italy, joined Jan 2000, 292 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 8):
Sorry to nit-pick, but shouldn't it be '...couldn't care less...' - as opposed to '...could care less...' which implies some degree of care?

You are correct. Sorry for the grammatical error. It does read different.

I once offered food to a person in lieu of spare change. The person refused but then again it may have been for safety not knowing where the food was from.



787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3078 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Why do people have to get so pissed at them. NO one is forcing you to give them money and if people do well that is their money. Where is this compassion I hear people talking about. Even the thread name screams intolerance.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 4):
So, your going to tell me that this is not the case...well let's just check out the Lafayette Clinic in Detroit, Eloise in Wayne County, and the Northville Hospital, all closed due to a lack of funding.....what do you think happened to the residents? Where do people go now that can not cope?

Having grown up in MI and until recently living there all of my life so far. I remember driving past these places and just staring and wondering how people end up at a place like this.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1258 times:

It's every man and woman for themselves. Leave them all in the gutter. It IS a choice to live there and play the victim card for a handout. They got themselves there, they can get themselves out, I'm not using whatever I have left from my wages for some bum to spend on glue and liquor. There are 'homeless' that make above the average wage because they turn pro. They just want the taxfree cash in hand.

The worst ones are those that dress up like gypsies round tourist attractions around Europe and say 'Please give me money for my baby in Albania/Serbia/ wherever they feel like being from that day. A quick 'No, I won't give you any money, goodbye' doesn't usually suffice, you have to get nasty and tell them to 'get the fuck out of my face' at the top of your voice to get them to leave.

Alternatively, Round them all up, assess their mental health - if they're sane/controlled by medication send them off to the armed forces (training/good food/accommodation/good wage) if they aren't transport them to a secure funny farm until they can be rehabilitated, or left there so they don't bother us all on the streets. That should be enough of a 'hand up' to get most of them going again.


User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1938 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

It seems mighty easy to watch an expose about some people who pretend to be homeless and make a good living, etc., and to assume from this that they are "all" or even mostly like this. But isn't that really just a defence mechanism to shut ourselves off from the genuine plight of most of these people. Sure there are bad apples, but they are people, and many of them have serious problems and need help.

Some of the stataments in this thread remind me of parallels to the way people dehumanize other groups they don't like (races, immigrants, whatever) by generalizing their impressions from certain extreme cases, so they don't have to feel any empathy/sympathy...

I don't pretend to have the answers to the problem of homelessness, and in fact, I don't give money to beggars. (It seems better to contribute to charities that feed and shelter homeless people. Then you know your buck ISN'T going toward alcohol or drugs, but toward food and shelter.) But in any case, I think blanket statements should be avoided.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1244 times:

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 13):
It IS a choice to live there and play the victim card for a handout.

Not all the time - and you need to recognise that. A great many homeless people (at least in Sydney) are reeling from various mental and physical health problems as a result of their participation in the Vietnam war. I have dealt with homeless people professionally in the past and you simply would not believe how many are veterans. You need to understand that not all of them sit around in cities all day because they want to. That said - there are charlatans out there, so in their cases I would certainly agree with you.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 13):
Alternatively, Round them all up, assess their mental health - if they're sane/controlled by medication send them off to the armed forces (training/good food/accommodation/good wage) if they aren't transport them to a secure funny farm until they can be rehabilitated, or left there so they don't bother us all on the streets. That should be enough of a 'hand up' to get most of them going again.

Round them up? Zeig heil herr commandant.

Are you seriously saying to me that you believe in conscripting homeless people into the armed forces potentially against their will? Read my last comment - most of them were in the armed forces. Anyway, you rarely meet a lot of young, long-term homeless. Usually they are 40+ and hardly in the kind of physical shape to be recruited into the armed forces.

You say that the ones who need mental help should be transported "...to a secure funny farm until they can be rehabilitated, or left there so they don't bother us all on the streets." - I am absolutely, positively shocked at such a statement. You are talking about people who are mentally ill!!! They need proper medical care, not some asylum for the criminally insane.

You have no idea what you are talking about, my friend.

I actually pity you for being so callous.

QFF


User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

I beg to differ with anyone defending these vagabonds. I have volunteered several days a week for the last few years to various causes. My ex is a social worker for a major government agency and interacts with homeless people on a daily basis.

Sure, some of these people actually need help. Some are truly mentality ill. Very few actually help themselves when afforded opportunities to do so. Even when spoon fed.

Regulations prohibit consumption of alcoholic beverages before coming on property if receiving federal funds as a homeless shelter. As a matter of fact, you’ll find a breathalyzer at nearly all homeless shelters.

There was an article in the local paper a few months back quoting a homeless person. He flat out stated he’d rather be homeless than enter a shelter and/or program just because of those rules.

What bewilders me is this segment of the population does not know where to find a job yet they know where to find all the free shit – handouts, etc.


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

Quoting N229NW (Reply 14):
But isn't that really just a defence mechanism to shut ourselves off from the genuine plight of most of these people.

Not really. It is their decision to be homeless - they do not have to live like that. Many of them have excuses for why they live on the streets, but many of them are their own doing - Escaping the law, bankruptcy,alcohol/drug/gambling problems and the rest of it. Most of them are just running away from their problems, rather than dealing with them like any normal person learns to do at school..

When I was still involved with a church I used to help in the food bank for the homeless and low income families, and these guys were absolute rotters. They stole from the hand that fed them and were real no hopers that screwed their own lives up by doing all the things we all know will lead to mucking your life up in the long run. They don't try and get jobs, they don't want the responsibility of being an effective member of civilised society.

My experiences with those homeless people have shaped my opinions now. Most aren't just people a little down on their luck, they are people that made a conscious decision to live on the streets, they did not go and get help when they needed it and as a result they themselves have lessened their options by living the way they do. If we can't help ourselves we can't expect others to be able to help us. That's why I think the armed forces would be good for them.

As for those who make good money off it. I have seen for myself these people that get out of quite nice MPVs, work out which territory they want to push for that part of the day, then they split up and go to work.


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1228 times:

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 15):
A great many homeless people (at least in Sydney) are reeling from various mental and physical health problems as a result of their participation in the Vietnam war

That is true. There are many veterans, and that is sad, but that is the Government's fault, and they should be receiving a returned servicemen's benefit, and any healthcare/mental care that they need for life. After all these guys served their time, and were traumatised in the name of their country.

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 15):
You are talking about people who are mentally ill!!! They need proper medical care, not some asylum for the criminally insane.

A Mental Health complex that has proper medical care, trained doctors,nurses and psychologists to help them. They are better there than on the streets, unstable and potentially dangerous to the rest of us. There have been too many violent crimes cause by these mental cases because they are out on the streets.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1219 times:

Ah, welfare programs!

Some folks out there truly need assistance to survive. Other folks actually utilize it as an opportunity to get their acts together. But these people usually dislike receiving assistance, and their self-worth is damaged in the process. These are the people I love to help.

However, welfare programs also instill a "welfare mentality" in some people. The problem is not limited to panhandlers. There is a growing community of those who expect handouts and have no willingness to do anything else but to be a parasite. They usually live in their own homes. They know how to abuse the system, and will go so far as to fake illness. I've seen it with Medicaid, food stamps, disability claims, and even amongst those receiving veterans benefits. Their self-worth is tied to how much they can suck from others.

Their abuses bleed resources from those who really need it, and frustrate those of us who trying to help from within the system. I get angry at the freeloaders, but I know it is the system that has created the monster. We feed the problem.

If the panhandlers can get out there and work the crowds, then they can also do other work. I don't want to feed the problem any more than necessary. That's why I no longer give them money.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 17):
That's why I think the armed forces would be good for them.

I really don't think so. If you are going to do that then why not send them off to a work house or a similarly Dickensian institution. Sending people away because they ask for spare change and live in the streets is the stuff of facism.

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal, but I truly feel a great sense of empathy for these people. I guess that coming from what I consider to be a privelaged background (loving family, plentiful food, roof over head) - I can't help but think that surely the only reason why someone would want to go a live on the streets is if things really were that bad for them. I'm not that naive to think they're all sad cases - sure some people are milking generosity - but that still doesn't taint my empathy.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 18):
There have been too many violent crimes cause by these mental cases because they are out on the streets.

Aerorobnz - really, is that just a pedestrian belief or is there some documented evidence to back up that assertion.

QFF


User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

There have been several murders of Homeless people by other homeless people in Auckland in the past 2-3 years, not to mention rapes and assaults as well as people associated with the homeless because they were not properly identified and treated as mental cases until they struck. I'll find a case example for you when I have time. Let me say however, that in this case 'Out on the streets' means the mentally unstable in everyday society in general, not just the vagrant population.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 20):
I guess that coming from what I consider to be a privelaged background (loving family, plentiful food, roof over head)

I come from a privileged background too, but I almost always take the cynical world view. Oh well. It comes from my own experiences I guess. If you are cynical like me, I guess you can only be pleasantly surprised when someone good comes along. It always surprises me that we have an unemployment benefit, when there are thousands of jobs that people can apply for daily, and yet these people aren't used to fill positions, even if they are only cleaning/serving at McDs. The point is everyone has to work to make ends meet except them, and that's what I don't like.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 20):
I really don't think so. If you are going to do that then why not send them off to a work house or a similarly Dickensian institution

Maybe not, but I was thinking the Military could build them up again into honest people with good work ethic and a strong future by offering them a secure lifestyle that took care of every aspect of their life for a bit so they can get back on track - similar to the schemes for troubled teens they have. However something that involves giving them a place/value and a job can work too, provided it is a disciplined environment. I just figured The Military discipline would be strong enough to have an effect quite quickly.


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