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UK ID Cards (the Price Of "freedom")  
User currently offlinePlanespotterx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

According to a study these new Bio-metric cards that may soon be compulsory in the UK could end up costing £300 per person, and have to be renewed every 5 years.
Talk about taking the p.ss, if Blair expects me to pay £300 every 5 years just to prove I wont blow up some chav then forget it.
If this idea ever gets through I imagine some very angry scenes on the streets of the UK, not aimed at Blair but these Asylum Seekers and other ethnic groups, and about time we did so too.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1183693,00.html

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAlcregular From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

Christ, they've shot up in price, it was £98 the other day.

User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1950 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

Quoting Planespotterx (Thread starter):
If this idea ever gets through I imagine some very angry scenes on the streets of the UK, not aimed at Blair but these Asylum Seekers and other ethnic groups, and about time we did so too.

Oh Man  banghead  That is logic: why direct your anger at the policy when you can blame "other ethnic groups" now for the price of your ID card? Why don't you send all those "other ethnic groups" back where they came from...Oh yeah, because they came from Bradford or Leicester.

Spoken like someone who has been thoroughly brainwashed by the Daily Mail and the Sun... but then again you considered voting BNP according to yourself, so what's the point of logic... Enjoy your scapegoating.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

If the card is compulsory, then the government gets to pay for them - end of story. It's their own stupid fault for insisting the card carry your life history, retina scan, fingerprints, complete human genome and favourite ringtones - GBP300.00 ? They're having a larf !

User currently offlineBarcode From Switzerland, joined Dec 2001, 678 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

I know a lot of us Brits are outraged; but isn't this like the European ID cards? My Portuguese girlfriend has an ID card with a fingerprint, date of birth, basic details on etc that allows her to travel around Europe, and works as identification for various purposes. And if we don't pay for it directly, we'll just be taxed more I suspect.

I strongly dislike the scheme - not just because of privacy concerns, but because of the cost. To me, £300 is a lot of money. I'm already dreading upgrading my passport to one of the biometric ones that will cost about £60 (I think) just so I can enjoy a US vacation once in a while.

If it is compulsory, then surely, the government should issue them - much like they issue National Insurance number cards. At the very least, there needs to be allowances for people on lower incomes, pensioners, etc.

And if it is going to be renewed every five years, then does that mean we'll have to spend ANOTHER £300. Sorry, I'm a little confused on this point.


User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

I don't resent it so much - I already carry a driving license after all, though I have to question why I need another form of ID.

What I do resent is having to pay for it - if the government want me to have one, they should bloody well pay for it, not lave me out of pocket for their own short-sighted policies.

And what exactly will an ID card stop? Terrorism? Crime? Will it bollocks. They will no doubt be easy to forge. And you have to catch the criminals and terrorists first.



No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineBananaBoY From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1578 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Quoting Planespotterx (Thread starter):
According to a study these new Bio-metric cards that may soon be compulsory in the UK could end up costing £300 per person, and have to be renewed every 5 years.
Talk about taking the p.ss, if Blair expects me to pay £300 every 5 years just to prove I wont blow up some chav then forget it.
If this idea ever gets through I imagine some very angry scenes on the streets of the UK, not aimed at Blair but these Asylum Seekers and other ethnic groups, and about time we did so too.

Geez, could you be any more right wing?

So you wont blow up a chav but you will participate in some "angry scenes" (whatever that may involve) against miscellaneous groups who you feel are obviously "asking for it." Hmm. £300 every five years? If the card has a chip on it, why would it need to be renewed every 5 years? Surely, the info on the chip would just be updated.

Anyway, back to the real world...


Some facts about the ID scheme..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4053453.stm


a) Having to show ID on demand. Will certainly be much easier to determine who has a legitimate reason to be in the UK and use Government services and who does not. I do not consider this an infringement of my civil liberties.

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 5):

What I do resent is having to pay for it - if the government want me to have one, they should bloody well pay for it, not lave me out of pocket for their own short-sighted policies.

.. and who pays the government? In the end, we do. The scheme is incredibly expensive though, and how to fund it is indeed a difficult question. And as for "short-sighted policies," I kinda think that this is a difficult and necessary decision for the long term. It is possible that the scheme would not necessarily be so expensive in the long run due to the reduction in levels of fraud.


Mark



All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting BananaBoY (Reply 6):
.. and who pays the government? In the end, we do.

Exactly. So why should I pay another £93 on top of my taxes for a card that is essentially the same as my drivers licence?



No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Next step will be registration of your residence, e.g. the way it has been handled on the continent since Napoleonic times: If you move your residence, you´ll have to register with the local police within one week. And you will have to carry your ID on your person anywhere outside your house.

Jan


User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Surely it should be a European ID card these days with the cost the same for all nations?

Anyway, does it mean another £300 if you lose it? I know. What we'll do is implant a microchip into the body then there will be no doubt who you are and you will never be able to lose it. That's got to be cheaper than £300 so everyone will be happy.......


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1843 times:

One of the most hyperbolic things I heard the other day, the only time Brits in Britain have had compulsory ID is when the Channel Islands were under Nazi control.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 10):
One of the most hyperbolic things I heard the other day, the only time Brits in Britain have had compulsory ID is when the Channel Islands were under Nazi control.

This is wrong. From 1939 until the early 50s was it compulsory in Britain to carry ID cards. Originally they were issued to prevent German spies from working inside the country. The pattern ofthe ID cards was changed several times to confuse German attempts in forgery. Also men had to carry their The governments wanted to keep the ID cards going, but one citizen questioned a copper demanding to see the ID card and went to court, were it was accepted to have ID cards as an emergency wartime measure, but deemed them illegal in peacetime.

I have one exemplar of a British wartime ID card (blue pattern, dated July 1943) in my collection.
Unfortunately my scanner is not working, else I would post it here.

On the front page it says:

National Registration Identity Card under the British Royal Coat of Arms
On the first inside page there are fields for
the card number, the surname, Christian names, full postal adress, holder's signature and the stamp of the registration office.
The second inside page is for changes of adress.
It also says that any unofficial aleration, marking or ereasure is punishable by a fine or imprisonment or both.

The following text is written on the back page:

Notice:

1) Always carry your identity card. You must produce it on demand by a police officer in uniform or a member of H.M. Armed Forces in uniform on duty.
2) You are responsible for this card, and must not part with it to any other person. You must report at once to the local National Registration Office if it is lost, destroyed, damaged or defaced.
3) If you find a lost Identity Card or have in your possession a Card not belonging to yourself or anyone in your charge you must hand it in at once at a Police Station or National Registration Office.
4) Any breach of these requirements is an offense punishable by fine or imprisonment or both.


Soldiers of the British Army were obliged to carry their A.B. 64 (Army Book 64), the pay book on their person at any time, the same applied to the RAF or RN versions of this document.

The normal ID card did not contain any photograph, but there were special photo ID cards issued to people requiring access to sensitive places. Also the A.B.64 was later issued with a picture stapled in on the second page.

Jan


User currently offlineBananaBoY From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1578 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1822 times:

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 7):
Quoting BananaBoY (Reply 6):
.. and who pays the government? In the end, we do.

Exactly. So why should I pay another £93 on top of my taxes for a card that is essentially the same as my drivers licence?

We could go round in circles with this... asking the governement to pay for it is futile.. Smile
The cost thing is a difficult one though.

To say that it is essentially the same as the drivers licence is also a little simplistic I feel.

Loads of info on this website... http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/

Want to know more though...


Mark



All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1812 times:

In Germany there is currently a discussion, because the government wants to incorporate distance readable RFID chips in the new passports and ID cards, so that you don´t even have to swipe them through a scanner to read them, but a receiver installed in a doorway could do it without you noticing it. The government comes with the usual reasoning, that if you have got nothing to hide, it will not hurt you.  crazy 

Jan


User currently offlinePaulc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

I already have a govt approved form of picture ID - its called a passport and so would object to pay again to carry another piece of photo id.

I also object to the idea of an ID card in generally - in those countries that have them are fraud/crime rates that much lower? How easy are they to get using forged documents?

To those that use the 'I have nothing to hide' arguement then you will not mind cameras being installed in your house, car, office then - big brother is watching!



English First, British Second, european Never!
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

Quoting Planespotterx (Thread starter):
If this idea ever gets through I imagine some very angry scenes on the streets of the UK, not aimed at Blair but these Asylum Seekers and other ethnic groups, and about time we did so too.

What do you mean by this ("These asylum seekers and other ethnic groups")? Am I asuming correctly that you put the blame of those sections of society and that you prefer a white Britain?

Quoting Barcode (Reply 4):
but isn't this like the European ID cards? My Portuguese girlfriend has an ID card with a fingerprint, date of birth, basic details on etc that allows her to travel around Europe, and works as identification for various purposes.

My German ID card does not contain biometrical data yet (though I have no idea whether they have already incorporated all that stuff, you never know). any incorporation of such data would lead to resistance of mine.. the US embassy here emailed recently that all new US passports will include all that shit. Man..

I like the liberal British approach - nothing against ID cards per se, but the British modell of not having to carry a national ID card at all times is definitelky a role modell in my eyes


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting Planespotterx (Thread starter):
According to a study these new Bio-metric cards that may soon be compulsory in the UK could end up costing £300 per person, and have to be renewed every 5 years.
Talk about taking the p.ss, if Blair expects me to pay £300 every 5 years just to prove I wont blow up some chav then forget it

The £300 was a guesstimate of what the system would cost in total. Not the cost in cash to buy one.

Quoting Paulc (Reply 14):
I already have a govt approved form of picture ID - its called a passport and so would object to pay again to carry another piece of photo id.

The proposals apparently begin with issuing them alongside passports. If they can work as European identity documents and let us fly or travel within the EU without passports then that could be a benefit.

Seems like a good idea to stop chavs signing on in ten different names though, although I'm still a bit suspicious of both the cost to the consumer and how it can all be made to work. I'm keeping an open mind on it for now. In some jobs (like airline related work) it could actually benefit the workers and carriers because security could be improved by a National Identity Card.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

If memory serves, the ID cards used in the war period were eventually scrapped after a test case where an individual was asked to prove his identity when the police had no grounds to request it. Infringement of civil liberties and all that.

The fundamental problem with this ID card scheme is that the government have shied away from making it compulsory to carry it. If it isn't compulsory it's utterly pointless, as the only way there can be any benefit (however marginal) is if the police can stop people and demand to see it. Since that isn't going to be the case (because there would be an outcry) then there's no point whatsoever. Picture the scene: "Can I see some ID Mr Terrorist/Asylum seeker/current tabloid enemy of the state?" "Sorry, haven't got it on me". "OK, in that case, please come to the police station with your ID in the next 7 days". "OK, no probs, officer, I'll be there, absolutely, for sure".  Yeah sure

Now, personally, I'm totally oposed to it on principle anyway, but if you don't make it compulsory to carry it, then it becomes a massive waste of money. Sure, the police quite like it, but then the police would quite like it if we were all tagged from birth and we had to tell them if we were going to the shops. The cost is prohibitive and the benefit non-existent. Completely pointless, and with luck Parliament will chuck it out.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
: If you move your residence, you´ll have to register with the local police within one week

I wouldn't wonder if this will happen again - last time I saw this procedure was in Czechoslovakian Republic in 1980 (ooooh, the Communists explained us what a police state is and the "Free world" copies it).



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

As Banco said, unless carrying the card at all times is made compulsory then the whole thing is pointless.

If the card does become compulsory, will those on benefit have the cost of the card docked from their benefit, as the card will be required by them to claim NHS treatment and other services from the state? I guess not  Wink

Maybe a solution would be to scrap passports and only have ID cards which would also allow travel overseas and, like the driving licence, have a paper section to be used for visas.


User currently offlineVirginAbby From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1771 times:

I have no problem with carrying the card, but that price would beggar belief.

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