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Iraqi Scorecard  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16937 posts, RR: 48
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 955 times:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/06/02/opinion/20050603_opchart.gif

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...06/02/opinion/20050603_opchart.gif

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/opinion/03chart.html?

I was pleasantly surprised that it seems to be going better than I thought it was, especially wrt the percentage of Iraqis that feel Iraq is going in the right direction.

[Edited 2005-06-03 20:02:08]


E pur si muove -Galileo
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 949 times:

Speaking for myself: I'm somewhat uplifted by those numbers. For so long, all we've heard is nothing good is coming out of Iraq, it will disolve into civil war, it's thousands of people dead in vein. It's not an "in your face" for the pro-Iraq hawks, but it puts thing's in perspective. Progress is being made.

If I had to pick the two best points-

1. Increase in independent media
2. Support for interim government, % of people beliving Iraq is making progress

Two worst points-

1. Percent of Sunni who believe Iraq is making progress
2. Casualty rate of U.S/Iraqi/Coalition troops


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 946 times:

Nice to see the economy is getting better while more and more people are getting killed and more and more people take up arms.  sarcastic 


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16937 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 945 times:

"For so long, all we've heard is nothing good is coming out of Iraq, it will disolve into civil war, it's thousands of people dead in vein. It's not an "in your face" for the pro-Iraq hawks, but it puts thing's in perspective. Progress is being made"

That's what I thought. Most of the numbers are better than I expected.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 934 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Nice to see the economy is getting better while more and more people are getting killed and more and more people take up arms.

Study your history... people are less liable to political radicalization when there is a stable economy. What did Hitler ride to power? Unemployment. What did Stalin ride to power? Hunger. Marx was wrong when he said religion is the opiate of the masses: work is.

With a population of 26 million, the "insurgents" constitute approxametly .1% of Iraq. It's a damn good thing the other 99.9% of Iraqis are able to feed their families and go to work, or this whole shindig would have fallen apart a long time ago.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 925 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
Study your history... people are less liable to political radicalization when there is a stable economy.

According to that theory, safety in Iraq should have improved along with the economy - it did the opposite. I agree, a stable economy a vital for a stable democracy, but it doesn't automatically lead to one.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
It's a damn good thing the other 99.9% of Iraqis are able to feed their families and go to work,...

You make it sound like they're living joyful lives in suburbia, which is kind of difficult when you're in a country with 70 terrorist attacks a day.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 916 times:

Keep pushing the PR, boys. Keep sucking the teets of the PR coming from the White House. They started something they don't know how to finish, and, in the end, I fear all we will have done is create another enemy.

Glad to see you think starting an unjustifed war is such a great thing. Seems you're in the minority anymore in this country.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16937 posts, RR: 48
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 906 times:

"Keep sucking the teets of the PR coming from the White House"

...because the White House always uses the New York Times (the editorial page no less) as its PR mouthpiece... Yeah sure



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 903 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):

According to that theory, safety in Iraq should have improved along with the economy - it did the opposite.

You have it backwards. The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in. The number of every day Iraqis participating and sympathizing with the insurgents is very small. Since they have some degree of economic stability, they are much less liable to start participating in terrorism theirselves.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 6):
They started something they don't know how to finish, and, in the end, I fear all we will have done is create another enemy.

Oh whatever ... no one has a crystal ball, least of all you. They have every bit the probability (if not more) of becoming a liberal convert like Germany and Japan as they do falling apart into some Somalian anarchy.


User currently offlineTheCoz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 898 times:

IMO the most important numbers would be the percentage of people who support the Iraqi government. I'm glad to see those numbers rising.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 886 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in. The number of every day Iraqis participating and sympathizing with the insurgents is very small.

You didn't bother to actually read that "scorecard", did you?  footinmouth 



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 880 times:
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The people supporting the government seem to be in the majority there, and the increase in the number of insurgents seems to be slowing significantly. Democracy and a growing economy will continue to convince people to follow the path of peace.

The naysayers will be crying failure forever it seems. They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 865 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.

If more had spoken up before this ill-gotten war, Ian, there might not be 1500-plus American families in mourning, an endless stream being tossed down this particular toilet, and and endless stream of people dying every day in Iraq.

One other thing-watching ABC News the other night, they're reporting that 90 suicide attacks occurred in May, 69 in April, and an increasing number of those doing th suicide attacks aren't foreigners, but Iraqi citizens. That should worry the yaysayers, who still are in love with this war.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 857 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
You didn't bother to actually read that "scorecard", did you?

It said there are 16,000 insurgents and another 1,000 foreign insurgents. Assuming that's conservative and there are really another 5,000 ... the total number of people planting bombs is less than one tenth of one percent of the population of Iraq...


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 846 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
The people bombing and blowing-up Iraqis are radicals, mostly foreign, taking an opportunity to screw over something the U.S. has their hands in.

So you stand by that? Even though Iraqi "insurgents" (sounds so much better than "terrorists"... I love propaganda language!) supposedly outnumber those from foreign countries 16 times?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11123 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 832 times:

But are we any closer to capturing the al-Qaida terrorists or finding WMD? Does anyone remember that is what started this sh*t in the first place? *IF* the Bush administration was legit, the number of US troop deaths in Iraq would be ZERO!!

GO CANUCKS!!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 825 times:

Seb, those kissing up to the war forgot a long time ago what the original reason was-it got lost when it was found to be false. But that doesn't stop them for making up new excuses and lies for the war. It wasn't about freeing Iraq; it wasn't about the war on terror; it wasn't about fostering democracy in the Middle East. It was, before the war, solely about WMD, that aren't there, and weren't there when we invaded a fifth-rate, hapless, almost defenseless nation.

And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. Be proud, of a lie, of damaging our good name in the world? Not me.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16937 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 813 times:

"And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. "

If Iraq becomes a stable democracy, it will be the best thing that has ever happened to that hemisphere and will make the lives lost and money spent worthwhile.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 810 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
If Iraq becomes a stable democracy, it will be the best thing that has ever happened to that hemisphere and will make the lives lost and money spent worthwhile.

It's neither stable nor a democracy. And, I still contend that once we pull out-and Dick Cheney has set the timeline, thank God for that (sarcasm), they'll go to what the people there want-an fundamental Islamic rule. After years of Saddam, they want something within their faith, and many see an Iranian-type government as the answer, I think.

Democracy, I fear, will be fleeting, and only there while we impose it on those people, Maverick.

But when that happens, I'm sure you'll find a Democrat to blame, Maverick.


User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 804 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
The naysayers will be crying failure forever it seems. They'll probably never be willing to stop complaining.

Sometimes I think the naysayers hope for failure, just so they can have an excuse to criticize the US and Bush. Success in Iraq completely destroys their agenda.



Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16937 posts, RR: 48
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 802 times:

" they'll go to what the people there want-an fundamental Islamic rule"

No people want fundamental Islamic rule in the fashion of Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, etc.. No one chooses that.

" they want something within their faith,"

Absolutely, but the threat of Muslim radicals being elected to power is overblown.

"and many see an Iranian-type government as the answer, I think."

Iranians hate their own government, and as the chart above shows, the majority support the Iraqi government and believe the country is heading in the right direction. They do not want a Council of Guardians or Taliban, and they will not vote for that.

"But when that happens, I'm sure you'll find a Democrat to blame, Maverick."

Aren't you petty and childish....



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 800 times:

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 19):
Sometimes I think the naysayers hope for failure, just so they can have an excuse to criticize the US and Bush. Success in Iraq completely destroys their agenda.

Yeah right. Like all we live for is bashing the Bush admin. Actually your statement is pretty offensive since you implied we'd be upset by success in Iraq and prefer people to be killed so we have something we can blame Bush for.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 800 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
If more had spoken up before this ill-gotten war, Ian, there might not be 1500-plus American families in mourning, an endless stream being tossed down this particular toilet, and and endless stream of people dying every day in Iraq.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
, who still are in love with this war.


No one loves the war....no one in their right minds anyway. It is a necessary evil that, if successful, will leave results that make us more secure from terrorists.

People did speak up against the war, and others supported the decision.....

now we're at the thing and all the complaining in the world is not going to get us to cut it short and leave the field before winning over the terrorists.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 16):

And yet guys like Maverick and DL021 are for some reason proud of what we've done there. Be proud, of a lie, of damaging our good name in the world? Not me.

Well, perhaps we should examine what I'm proud of, without any assumptions or perception coloration from my friend Falcon. I am proud of our armed forces and the way with which they handle themselves overall. The US GI is still the most compassionate soldier to the innocent, and the most dominating one on the field of battle.....not because we are supermen and women but because we won't lose out there. Politically we can be weakened, but the military does its job. I am proud of the fact that we went into Iraq and Afghanistan and did not just take what they have, but are helping them to reach for a form of democracy that their regions have never had.

I'm humbled by the sacrifices made by our men and women, and I get really pissed off when people try to tell these troops that their sacrifices were in vain.

Tell me that we are stealing Iraqs oil....that was an accusation thrown out there by the anti-American crowd looking to cast us in a bad light.

Tell me that we are massacreing civilians....which has been an accusation thrown at us.

Tell me that we are creating an empire with our actions....which some want to believe that we are so they can properly vilify us.

I'll show you how the opposite is true, and we actually stopped most of those things from happening on a governmental scale in these countries. Our presence there has been a benefit to these countries and will continue to be so. You can make all the pithy comments you like that denigrate the efforts made, but the facts remain. The previous government in Iraq was composed of degenerate, sadistic, genocidal maniacs who could be trusted only to do what they saw as benefitting themselves and gave a very good impression of a nationstate that was hiding WMD programs, which they had had previously.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 797 times:
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Were are these numbers comming from? are they factual?

BTW .. What "threat level" are we now a days



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 792 times:

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
What "threat level" are we now a days

"SCARED", as my Firefox plugin would say...  Silly That's "Elevated" in DoHS terms; I doubt it will ever go to "guarded" or "low". Afraid citizens are more likely to vote for pro-war anti-personal freedom governments.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
25 Post contains links MaverickM11 : From a Brookings Institute study here: http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20050603.htm
26 MaverickM11 : That was the Democrat platform and it didn't work, obviously, otherwise Kerry would be President.
27 Aloges : Sweet! So Kerry put the DoHS and the silly little colour codes into place? God, that's a vast left-wing conspiracy right there!
28 MaverickM11 : No, they tried to scare American citizens into thinking a vote for Bush meant fewer freedoms, more war, less security, a rotten economy, and no social
29 Aloges : Well, the Bush admin wasn't/isn't exactly trying to make people think they're safe, is it? That's the point I made when I referred to the DoHS' "threa
30 DfwRevolution : I got it backwards don't shoot me... In any event, is an insurgency compromised of .1% of Iraq's population. It's an insurgency led and financed larg
31 MaverickM11 : "Well, the Bush admin wasn't/isn't exactly trying to make people think they're safe, is it? " ...besides constantly reassuring the public that they ar
32 Post contains links and images Aloges : How can you say that? You simply don't know, just like I don't. I hope that's true, believe me. I think it's hypocritical to call the kidnappers, car
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