WOW! I heard on the ABC (American Broadcast Company) news that the police vehicle whose occupants shot the kid drove over him when they escaped. That smacks to me of those felons on the loose in Texas last December who shot a cop then ran him over when they escaped.
I've noticed that street protests in Europe invariably get nasty. Whether it's the Catholics or Protestants in Northern Ireland, Asians and Brits in Oldham, the 17 November group in Greece, or anti-globalization protestors in Gothenburg, I always see things on fire. Usually that doesn't happen in the US. People just steal stuff. In the US we've only had a couple of bad riots in the last few years, in Cincinatti and Seattle, and a couple of other disturbances involving sports teams and drunken college boys.
Are European cops more violent? Very few of the ones I saw on my last trip there - in Amsterdam, Paris, and Barcelona- actually carried pistols. On the other hand, at the security question time at AMS a few years ago, there was a scary looking Dutch guy with an MP-5 backing up the questioner. It's kinda weird where you see almost no guns then machine guns.
But European protestors seem pretty hard core. Where American protestors would be just overturning cars, Europeans are flinging Molotov cocktails. I mean, God, the police there need water cannons. I've only heard of water cannons being used in the US once, at Birmingham, AL against Martin Luther King's people.
DesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7673 posts, RR: 18 Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 636 times:
The protestor that was killed was provoking the officers... I think he was about to hurl a fire extinguisher at police... under pretty much any circumstance that would call for deadly force.
With the G-8 Summit everyone who has a cause is out in Genoa this week. And many of these groups are European anrchist groups and other VERY extreme groups. Given the heightened security with all of the world leaders in town has got to make a very tense situation. The Italians have been stopping some protestors at the border.
In the US I don't think there are as many groups. Plus we have a pretty decent tradition of non-violent protest in this country too.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
FlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 634 times:
Why wasn't there any tear gas in the jeep, though? How come the Caribineri didn't use a shotgun with a beanbag round instead of a handgun?
The way I read it, it looks like the cops went off half cocked. How did they get cornered by a mob on foot? Why weren't they in a line?
Still... the way it seems like the cops got attacked reveals a feral, Lord of the Flies sort of rage that I've never seen in the US since the Los Angeles riots of '92. How can somebody get THAT worked up over Third World debt relief or slave labor conditions for Nike workers?
To me, it seems like people ought to reserve their rage for when they truly are disenfranchised- when the police shoot them almost with impunity, when the local banks refuse credit to their communities, when they are trapped in a cycle of poverty...
It seems like in Genoa this sort of proxy warfare- between employees and security personnel of the G-8 nations and the 100,000 people who purport to represent the poor and disenfranchised- this sort of warfare ought to be much more civilized.
Braniff747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 627 times:
Most of the protesters are only there to stir up trouble. Most don't even know what "globalization" really means.
You can say what you want about the policia being "half-cocked" or whatever. But the fact is, when a situation is already tense, and you go ballistic on armed security personel, well you are literally puting your life at risk because there is no telling what could happen.
FlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 626 times:
Why would any city want to host any sort of summit meeting now? Isn't it blandly obvious that wherever they're held, there's going to be tens of millions in dollars in damage? Why not be safe and hold the damn thing on a cruise ship in the center of a U.S Navy carrier battle group cruising in the Pacific ocean?
And has the G-8 administrative staff insured this meeting against damage? What is the policy on compensation to the shopkeepers for the damage done by these riots?
DesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7673 posts, RR: 18 Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 622 times:
Braniff747... I would wager to say that most of the protestors at these functions are non-violent. The protestor, from what I heard on NPR today, was a member of a Spanish Anarchist group... not your typical anti-globalization protestor.
Aside from the anarchists and other violent protestors most of those in Genoa represent an amazing variety of interests, from anti-globalization, to gender equality groups, to environmental groups... and they are all non-violent.
While I have many issues in common with the anti-globalization groups I strongly disagree with the use of violence as a means of getting their message across.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 612 times:
FlyBoeing, those nuts who rioted today AREN'T worked up by any of those problems: they use this meeting as an excuse to cause violence, just like the idiots who riot after the L.A. Lakers won the title 2 years ago, and things like that-there are just thugs out there looking for a reason to let loose on any authority.
I don't quite agree with Zach, who thinks "shoot now, ask questions later" possibly should replace "Preserve, Protect and Defend" as the police motto, but in such a case as in Genoa, the Police must defend themselves with any means they have.
JonPaulGeoRngo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 603 times:
Do these people have jobs? Was listening to an interview with a "protesting dilettante" who had attended Seattle, Sweden and now Italy. Who's coughing up the funds for this freak's good life? You sure as heck can't take a VW Van from Seattle to Scandanavia. Oddly enough they always have enough for a double latte!!
I like the ship idea. Perhaps the French can sink another Greenpeace ship for fun.
JetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 13 Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 601 times:
I agree mostly with what several are saying here. 'Anarchist' groups are nothing but a fad. Rage Against the Machine, anti-establisment-types are looking for reasons to to protest. They are wannabe hippies that use a 'cause' to justify their distaste for working hard for a good life. Screw them and their green hair.
Tupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 597 times:
JetService, I agree. They are just using these protests as an excuse not to work hard in life for what they want. I am getting sick of hearing about all of these violent protests on TV whenever there is a gathering of world leaders to discuss economic issues - perhaps should we give them less attention?
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 577 times:
Most of the protesters in Genoa, as well as in other places which have suffered similarly, ARE peaceful, and are only interested in peacefully making their opinions known to the G8 leaders, as is their right in virtually every democracy.
Unfortunately, you have anarchists and just plain hooligans who have fund such gatherings to be an ideal vehicle with which to have a little fun. They may number no more than 10% of the protesters, but that is enough to start riots.
The asshole who got himself killed was part of a group of people who had surrounded a police vehicle. The vehicle and its occupants were trapped, and could not get away without running some of the rioters over. The rioters were using clubs and other weapons to try to break into the vehicle and attack the policemen inside, and were apparently meeting with some success - they almost did get inside, when one of the cops, perhaps young, inexperienced, fearful for his life and on the verge of panic, shot at one of the rioters who appeared to be about to break his way in.
I've found myself in the middle of a protest against the WTO. Just like the police vehicle, my car was blocked in and I couldn't get out - The reason was that I was driving a Chevy Tahoe, an unussual car in Geneva, and the protesters were convinced that with a car like that, I had to be from the American Embassy, or better yet, CIA or FBI (they watch a lot of movies, apparently). They wanted to burn my car (they magnanimously allowed me permission to leave it before they put the torch to it). I told them that if I saw so much as a lighted match or a lighter anywhere near my car, I was going to drive over the people who were laying down in front of my car. I had already switched into four-wheel-drive, and believe me, I was ready to do it.
Luckily for me, the police broke me out of their after about 20 minutes. My point is that when these people surround you it is damned scary. I've been there, And Swiss protestors are much more civilized than the Spanish, Italians or French etc.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 21 Reply 20, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 576 times:
The funds for protests such as what happens in Genoa now (and Gothenburg, the Hague and other places before) used to be provided by the KGB and other WarPac intelligence agencies.
Who is paying now is not quite clear, but there are still powerfull groups with large resources who want to bring down democracy in Europe and around the world.
At last the police are doing something, they were not paramilitary at all, just regular riot police. In Europe those guys do what the national guard and SWAT do in the US. They provide barriers for events like this, dangerous arrests, etc.
Their most frequent jobs are soccergames, which make the average political riot look like a walk in the park.
YQTYYZ From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 557 times:
I have no sympathy for that protester. He was carrying a fire extinguisher, and was clearly aiming for policemen in their vehicle, as seen in the AP photos. If someone came at you with a weapon (of any kind), wouldn't you defend yourself at all costs?
The protester later suffered greater indignity, as the police vehicle backed over him... I saw this in the Globe and Mail this morning... I laughed, and so did my neighbour, when I showed it to him.
Make no mistake: these people are up to no good. Who really protests with gasmasks, and covered faces? Why would you need to hide your face?
The Ontario Coalition Against Poverty was guilty of ripping up the sidewalk last June in front of the Ontario Legislature... these people were bused in from places like Montreal, Ottawa, etc. Its leader, John Clarke, lives in his own house, while true homeless people don't even know where they're sleeping next.
I'm all for protests and demonstrations, as long as they're peaceful, and do not endanger others.
Shame on those in Genoa, Seattle, and in Quebec City. Don't take your anger out on policemen... make your votes count come election day, and support those politicians who share your ideology.
VirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 534 times:
That punk got what he asked for. No one put a gun to his head and told him to endager the lives of policemen by throwing a fire extinguisher at them. My regret is that the police vehilce didn't run him over some more. I'm sick and tired of these vandals and anacrhists trying to make their point by beating up people, looting and burning businesses. I still remeber those photos of the anachists in Seattle smashing widows of the starbucks and looting businesses while the owners and employees watched in disbelief. What the hell did they do to deserve this!!!!!! Do any of you have an idea of how much money and how mentally painful and tramatizing it would be just to try to get back on your feet. Remember that many businesses never recovered due to the riots.
Tupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 531 times:
Moving the meetings to hideaways would mean victory on the part of the anarchists.
Rather go and raid every single home of the anarchists who were involved in the protests and arrest them before they can do anything. Better yet, go and raid the camps where they are trained and arrest everyone there.