EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12559 posts, RR: 64 Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1785 times:
This appears to be total vindication for Michael Schiavo.
Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.
"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Jean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2106 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1777 times:
I am glad that the results came back, and that they indicated what most reasonable people suspected. As mentioned, this should vindicate Michael Schiavo. But, now as then, certain die-hard 'right to life' people will refuse to see this as what it is, and that poor family's struggle is now a permanent black mark on their life, because of the media circus. Too bad; really too bad.
TedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1764 times:
Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 2): On another note, maybe I SHOULDN'T send a photo of this mole to Bill Frist for his "expert diagnosis..."
Why waste your time? You know that his staffers would NEVER pass the data on, so that way, he can keep saying that 'he never saw the autopsy data' when being asked why he is STILL being a moron about this case 300 years from now.
Ctbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1758 times:
Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 3): I am glad that the results came back, and that they indicated what most reasonable people suspected. As mentioned, this should vindicate Michael Schiavo. But, now as then, certain die-hard 'right to life' people will refuse to see this as what it is, and that poor family's struggle is now a permanent black mark on their life, because of the media circus. Too bad; really too bad.
Agreed. The whole sorry episode was an embarrasing display of political and religious theatre where a struggling family were put on trial by the media and politicians trying to use the Schindlers and the Schiavos for their own gain. It also underscores that the decision to remove nutition and hydration was indeed the right one.
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1617 times:
Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 5): Agreed. The whole sorry episode was an embarrasing display of political and religious theatre where a struggling family were put on trial by the media and politicians trying to use the Schindlers and the Schiavos for their own gain. It also underscores that the decision to remove nutition and hydration was indeed the right one.
This became a media/political circus because the Schiavos' did everything in their power to make sure of it. They even requested help from Congress.
This is a case of parents not wanting to say goodbye to their "baby girl."
HT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6472 posts, RR: 27 Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
Though I do approve Michael Schiavo´s decision and welcome his vindication by this report, it was a horror for me to see that Terry´s fight went on for another 13 days before she finally made it.
There´s another thread that deals with a similar "event" (currently, I don´t have a better word for it), but those poor lad being the center of it, made it very fast. Though it must have been a very, very tough decision for those parents too, they were fortunate that their son´s fight was over so very fast ... My Co-worker's 4 Year Old Son Died Yesterday (by GOCAPS16 Jun 14 2005 in Non Aviation)
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
Ctbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 52 Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1546 times:
Quoting 767Lover (Reply 9): This is a case of parents not wanting to say goodbye to their "baby girl."
Which is true, and happens quite often. Few families, however, are willing to go to the lengths the Schindlers did in order to keep their daughter on life support. I end up praying they will find a way to let go.
Garnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 55 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1434 times:
Quoting Greasespot (Reply 15): Strangly all the people screaming in the original Shiavo threads about murder...and killing here are strangly quiet...
I have a feeling that the loudest kickers and screamers in the original Schiavo threads are going to say nothing and hope and pray that this thread sinks to the archives quickly so that they don't have to deal with the realization that they REALLY backed the wrong horse.
Or they'll drink the Kool-Aid and back the parents without any critical thought put forward on the issue. Again.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
KC135R From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 699 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1379 times:
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 4): Why waste your time? You know that his staffers would NEVER pass the data on
I actually e-mailed Frist, Delay, and Mel Martinez (R-FL) after their little "palm Sunday compromise" stunt to voice my disgust for their antics, which were clearly for political gain. First time I ever did that as a matter of fact. Anyway, yesterday (odd timing) I finally got a reply from Sen Frists office, and while it was no doubt written by a staffer and had his signature artificially put on, at least his office had the decency to explain their side. While I totally disagree wit his reasoning, I have to respect someone takes time to try and justify their position, however ridiculous.
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6): But perhaps Frist and Delay also have brains half the size of the average human.
Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 12): And, as expected, her parents disagree with the autopsy's findings:
Which proves what I originally thought when they refused to listen to the doctors - that, while hopefully out of love only, they had selfish motives (couldn't let go after 15 years) and that they are completely delusional. How can you not accept this autopsy report? Amazing.
On another note, I heard Sean Hannity (a few months ago)go on and on and on and on about how the husband was bad and wanted to murder her even though there was hope - so today I tuned in for his first hour (even though the sound of his voice now makes me sick) to see if he would apologize for slandering Michael Schiavo (who was about the only rational person in all this apparently) and I only could catch the intro but Hannity actually said the autopsy proved he (yes as in Hannity) was right - that there are still unanswered questions! He left out the part in the autopsy where he was most wrong, that there was NO HOPE of recovery - her brain was 50% gone! I want to know when Hannity and Glenn Beck (who boldy and plainly called Schiavo a murderer and scumbag) are going to be apologizing. M Schiavo should sue them both for slander, IMO! Teach them they can't get away with saying anything they please.
The official White House comment from GW :It was still wrong to remove the feeding tube. And why I ask? To keep a woman who was blind, unable to move, suffering from osteoporosis, and missing half her brain alive to keep her parents happy? What kind of "culture of life" is that?? How selfish these people are. I am glad that what I believed was right, there was no hope for recovery and she should be allowed to die. I hope she has total peace now!
25 MD11Engineer: Actually most of the information should have been available well before the decision. There exist several methods today, with which brain activity an
26 KC135R: How did we not know? The results are what most doctors said they would be, save the few radicals who said otherwise. Based on the facts that were ava
27 EA CO AS: I heard Hannity going on about this today, and while I normally agree with him on some matters, I found myself absolutely appalled at the self-delusio
28 TedTAce: YOU and your ILK CHOOSE to IGNORE the FACTS presented here and by countless news organizations. Admit you were wrong, for medical reasons and that yo
29 LTBEWR: The case of Terry Shiavo is still very disturbing on many levels. She unfortuntaly ended up in a horrible twilight of life no one would ever want for
30 TedTAce: NO. This planet barely has enough resources to deal with it's population at this time and because we are 'such a rich' society we forget that there a
31 KC135R: Not exactly, the initial damage to the brain happened due to the fact that her brain went without oxygen for a long time. She collapsed and was near
32 OttoPylit: Here is what I want to know. If it was determined that she was to die, then: Why leave a woman to dehydrate and starve to death? Her official death is
33 KC135R: I agree - the humane thing to do would be to give her an injection. But in our sometimes twisted world, that is murder and starving to death is just
34 Theredbaron: Write your wills ASAP, you never know when the media will make a clown out of you or your family... BTW nice to see this case, hada greater purpose: t
35 Kalakaua: I think people shouldn't be blaming politics and religion. Terri Shiavo's parents were in this for money. They brought everyone into this. It is a sad
36 Jaysit: And now the fanatics in the Fanatical Party are busy backtracking on their comments. Maybe we should deluge their offices with their earlier comments.
37 TedTAce: " target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/16/po...epage From above: "Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he
38 ANCFlyer: Funny how that works isn't it. I don't hear anything from Frist or Jeb Bush or anyone that tried - without merit - to step in and take over . . . It
39 JGPH1A: For about 10 minutes, until the good people of the Iowa Caucus hand him his hat (do Republicans have those too ? Caucuses I mean, not hats).
40 1MillionFlyer: I always have wondered why people of faith that beleive in Heaven would try so hard to have someone not get to go to heaven, wouldn't heaven be a muc
41 Mr Spaceman: Hello 1MillionFlyer. I have always found that behavior very, very, very, interesting!!! I honestly believe that many (not all) people who go to church
42 TedTAce: Hey Hey hey, I was quoting the article in Jaysit's article... don't flame the messenger!!!
43 SE210Caravelle: because they had absolutely no right to keep her alive. They were not responsible for her, instead it was T. Shiavos husband, who, and rightfully so,
44 ANCFlyer: No, No, I'm agreeing - the message is , not your comments! The whole case was a debacle . . . made the GOP (and especially Frist, Jeb and some others
45 Mdsh00: It doesn't matter what the parents want. Legally the husband is the next of kin and what he says, goes. The fact that the parents couldn't deal with
46 OttoPylit: I agree, the only problem is that there was nothing to say thats what she wanted. There is nothing to prove it and Terri is unable to make the choice
47 Garnetpalmetto: Several other individuals testified that Terri stated that she would not have wanted to live like that. It wasn't solely "his word against her family
48 Jean Leloup: Otto; There is some pretty sad irony in what you are saying. You repeatedly claim that there is no PROOF that she wanted to die, and that therefore th
49 KC135R: Yes there is, verified by at least two other family members. Nope, no life insurance policy, though I am not surprised you heard that - Sean Hannity
50 SE210Caravelle: Why the husband wanted her to die: • Continue on with his life and get re-married without having to worry about Terry. • Let her pass peacefully
51 KC135R: I could not possibly agree more - wanting to keep her lying there wasting away, and possibly suffering, was selfish IMO.[Edited 2005-06-17 06:24:51]
52 Allstarflyer: First, it's cool with me to admit that I was on the wrong side of the medical evidence. I wasn't convinced at the time of her inability to ever recove
53 SFOMEX: I intended to stay away from this dead horse, yet I feel that something has to be said about this valid question. In my view, Terri's fight was more
54 Allstarflyer: Unfortunately, in light of my view of Mr. Schiavo, even minus the AD, I'm forced to agree. That's not how we felt in our family. I don't think Nancy
55 Allstarflyer: Well, Ted, Spaceman, KC, Garnet, Grease - well? Well-said and with self-control - welcome to RR list, SFOMEX. -R
56 KC135R: Interestingly, during this same time, a baby was pulled from life support in Texas. This was allowed to happen because, in Texas, there is a law that
57 KC135R: Here's my answer to this: It is a difficult issue, I agree. Where do you draw the line? How do you decide who gets to live and who doesn't? It can be
58 Allstarflyer: Fine, with your own words: You say this, with a lack of assurance: Then you say this, with authority: So where's the morality in all of this? No, not
59 Allstarflyer: KC, I have to get back to work, but I think we agree more than you know. I will say that I do appreciate your self-control and objective approach. And
60 ANCFlyer: Well, AllStar, I don't know what else you're looking for. I made two simple posts in this thread about what occured was a travesty with Mrs. Shaivo.
61 Mir: Of course he didn't, which is why he made this speech on March 17, in which he said things like: "When I first heard about the situation facing Terri
62 Garnetpalmetto: I don't have problems with attempting to uphold moral values - my problem first of all was that people like Frist and others were wanting to suborn l
63 MD11Engineer: The autopsy only cnfirmed what was known through technologies like PET (Positron Emission Tomography) and cerebral angiography, plus electroencephalog
64 1MillionFlyer: How can being feed by a tube and unable to be a natural human being able to exist as God intended be defined at maintaining the "sanctity of life"?
65 Jaysit: I don't think Nancy Reagan felt that way about Ronald. You cannot compare Terri Schiavo with Ronald Reagan. Those with Alzheimers have a full memory l
66 Dvk: Now that bastard Jeb Bush is asking for an inquiry into how much time elapsed between when Terri collapsed 15 years ago and when Michael called 911. T
67 MD11Engineer: My father had parts of his brain die while he was still alive due to clogged arteries in his neck. He suffered two strokes, due to the same reasons, a
68 SE210Caravelle: I agree, every life is important. But come on! There was no chance of survival, she was going to die eventually, we all knew it! Yet, the parents insi
69 Mdsh00: The thing is that these types of cases happen all the time. But disputes are eventually taken to the courts who determine that the spouse is (or is n
70 Boeing4ever: I agree that Terry Shiavo had no real chance of recovery and I definitely found the political grandstanding by the GOP to be sick. (That delves more i
71 Allstarflyer: First of all, I appreciate (and am pleasantly surprised) by the civlity that has ensued, especially from Garnett, in light of the heated remarks found
72 Dan-Air: Sean Hannity makes shit up? I'm shocked!
73 Mdsh00: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/17/schiavo.governor.ap/index.html So Jeb Bush is trying to reignte this issue. He must be hoping to score points for hi
74 SFOMEX: I'd like to share this with you. The author is a Catholic priest, Fr. Frank Pavane. You may not agree, but I think is a good summary of how a lot of p
75 Dan-Air: How many starving kids in Africa could have been fed with all the money spent on keeping Terry Schiavo alive as a vegetable for 15 years?
76 Damirc: Yes, I am not ashamed to say that I hoped Terri would be allowed to live. And I still stand by my opinion. To make matters more incomprehensible to mo
77 KC135R: Only because it isn't my place to judge him on this issue. In the same case, would I have done the same thing? I don't know, but I can understand now
78 JpetekYXMD80: It is removing her from life-sustaining support, thus indirectly causing death. If something were done directly to cause death, that would qualify as
79 TedTAce: Good answer KC, I couldn't have articulated it better myself, but basically in my own words.. Yes some lives ARE more important then others. That det
80 Allstarflyer: Because it wasn't the entire medical opinion that I retained hope. Should I be able to show you that, would it make a difference? -R
81 TedTAce: It would help me respect the 'fact' that you genuinely care about life, and respect you as an individual, but I'll say in your case that as far as I'
82 Boeing4ever: This I don't deny, I think I even made clear that it was still wrong...and remember, the basic instincts of humans make us do wrong things sometimes.
83 TedTAce: I would consult the doctors personally, come to an understanding her situation is irreversable, allow her husband to make the decision they discussed
84 Boeing4ever: That simple huh? Heaven forbid it should happen... Another point that was touched here...one should always prepare a will spelling out what should ha
85 KC135R: Which is either being optimistic or being blind to the facts, and as I have said several times now - I am sure you had good intentions in doubting, y
86 Boeing4ever: In this case, selfish is a matter of perspective. Blinded and dilusional out of love perhaps, and a terrible circus ensued. IMO, they became paws sim
87 KC135R: True, that's why I said it was my opinion, what I believe - right or wrong to others, I stand by it. They used every means at their disposal to help
88 Boeing4ever: Indeed bad things result from good intentions, but while they asked for help, sure enough, they were broadcasting their pain, and unwholesome individ
89 KC135R: I agree, that could be the biggest, most positive lesson learned from all this. I also agree with almost all of what you said in this post, except I
90 CORULEZ05: My question is: Who's to say that these "autopsy results" aren't being bias...ie in Michael's Schiavo's side????? Face it guys, in this country that i
91 KC135R: You're right, it's a conspiracy!!! Come on, do you really think with all the attention they could even pull that off? Do you really think the coroner
92 Greasespot: Stop making up facts to suit your perspective...she was not starved to death....and saying it in all capital letter doesn ot make it any lmore true...
93 Mdsh00: It is not starvation. Do you think taking someone off of a respirator is the same as putting a pillow over their face until they suffocate? She would