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Outsourcing In The US - Long Term  
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Outsourcing jobs....manufacturing first and now service out of the US. What are the long term implications of outsourcing? We shouldn't just think of the bottom line of the company when deciding when to outsource. Is the US losing manufacturing capability? How many young people know that know how to operate an NC machine?

At the job I'm working at now (internship) the manufacturing workforce has fallen to 200 from 8000 over the course of 8 years and work is still being outsourced to Mexico and China at the company. Engineering jobs are also starting to be sent abroad. I'm sure other companies are the same. I'm interested in your opinions on the long term implications of outsourcing.


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1459 times:

Penalties for those companies that put American Workers out of work by sending jobs elsewhere.

No more tax breaks for those companies.

Require companies to employ as many people in the states as they employ elsewhere.

Example: Anyone call DL lately?? Outsourced call center.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

Just to let everybody know that all hope is not lost.

The new job I got last week came about because somebody at this particular company asked the question, "Why are we looking for contract employee's out of state(A state version of outsourcing), when we have this university right here producing logistics majors?"



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1389 times:
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NW closed a few call centres over the years, but I believe we still have all of ours here.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1385 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Anyone call DL lately?? Outsourced call center.

Delta's outsourcing a lot more than their call center. They are in the midst of outsourcing their benefits administration too. That will not be pleasant.

I got laid off indirectly due to outsourcing. The company I work for now is outsourcing its pension administration. We are finding that outsourcing is not all it's cracked up to be. Lots of problems. But we'll keep plodding down this road because it's where management pushes us because that's what the shareholders want - more return.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1374 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Penalties for those companies that put American Workers out of work by sending jobs elsewhere.

All those outsourcing jobs in places like India are creating an economic boom there that has largely contributed to the country's airlines ordering over 500 brand new aircraft from Boeing and Airbus.

While India's exports to the US were about $ 10 billion, its imports in terms of manufactured goods was $ 15 billion.

You're sounding like a protectionist Democrat beholden to Union interests, ANC. That's not like you. The anti-outsourcing nonsense didn't help John Kerry and its unlikely to help the US.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Example: Anyone call DL lately?? Outsourced call center.

I HATE this simply because everytime I call Delta I have a hard time understanding what the person is saying. Good idea in theory, though.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 6):
I HATE this simply because everytime I call Delta I have a hard time understanding what the person is saying. Good idea in theory, though.

Its called globalization.

Its best to get used to accents different than yours.
Besides a lot of these call center people are coached to speak in an accent that closely approximates an American broadcast one. It isn't Tom Brokaw, but you get what you pay for.

Some day your boss may be Indian or Chinese or Irish or Russian, if he/she isn't already. And they probably aren't going to speak to you in a coached quasi-American accent.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1337 times:

"Where the Jobs Went"
http://www.cato.org/dailys/02-16-04.html

"Manufacturing Myths"
http://www.cato.org/research/articles/reynolds-030831.html

"Exporting Tech Jobs to India?"
http://www.cato.org/research/articles/reynolds-040104.html

And lots more...
http://www.cato.org/current/outsourcing/index.html



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIADBGO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1320 times:

I've had this arguement many times with my wife...she is an economist. Most economists would tell you that outsourcing would actually produce more jobs in the US by allowing those whose jobs have been outsourced to get a better education in a higher paying field. (I don't know that I totally agree with this though)

The actual data supports that conclusion believe it or not. That is aside from the benefits you get from not having to pay as much for the products produced over seas. Time magazine had an interesting article about outsourcing to China last week.

IADBGO


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1316 times:

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 9):
The actual data supports that conclusion believe it or not.

This has been proven so many bloody times in the real world--even by whole nations--that if you are arguing against this process, you have to be a member of the flat earth society. Every day it gets harder and harder to argue against free trade, globalization, outsourcing, etc, that it's no wonder that the opponents are fewer and farther between, and that it's an election loser just about everywhere but France.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIADBGO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1312 times:

Yeah I totally agree that globalization and trade prove this arguement...but it is amazing how many people refuse to believe it.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1303 times:

Quoting IADBGO (Reply 11):
Yeah I totally agree that globalization and trade prove this arguement...but it is amazing how many people refuse to believe it.

Free trade and globalization of labor is a winner, but the people who've lost their jobs in the US obviously are affected rather adversely by these losses.

IBM and Boeing and GE benefit, but how does a 50 year old "consumer specialist" whose job has been outsourced get to become an engineer for Boeing at her age? How do we tell her that outsourcing is good? That it is good for the US at large, but she's basically sh*t outa luck.

While I am fully in favor of free trade, I also think we need to establish institutions in this country (in the public or private sector, but preferably the latter) that can help those whose jobs are lost to transition into alternate jobs.

Where is compassionate conservatism when you need it?


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

Mav and IAD- I agree, however, a key component to make the result happen is having a sound educational system. At present time, I'm not real confident we have that, especially when you consider Americans' test scores in math, science, etc, against many other nations.

So in theory and practice that has proven to be correct, but I'm wary about it--particularly given the fact government schools are circling the drain faster and faster.

Another downside to outsourcing is similar to the threat we face from illegal immigration: the loss of innovation. Throwing cheap labor at standard manufacturing or repetitive tasks stagnates creative thinking and technological innovation (ie: drip irrigation comes to mind).

That could have a long term impact whereby we have high-tech industries and then a very low-tech blue collar segment that could have benefitted from a more extensive use of technology and innovation (like having a buggy whip maker in the 21st Century).


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
especially when you consider Americans' test scores in math, science,

That's primarily because of the complete lack of competition and 'free trade' in the education system but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Outsourcing is an interesting notion.
I would like to put forward the notion that big companies will not survive. There are too many managers and not enough employees left in the US to support the companies operations. People that have been left unemployed will form smaller more specialized companies that will enable them to provide for themselves and thier families.
As for the education level, I find that to be a bs notion. Anyone that makes it through Calculus can do most of the jobs on the planet.
However there is a problem in our schools and it relates to the recruitment and retention of GOOD math and science teachers. The issue is mostly there because all the people that go into college that are really good at these subjects and fundamentally understand them, do not want to take a low paying ill - rewarding job like k-12 teaching. Perhaps if teaching was more rewarding to those with the skills to teach it, then there wouldn't be as big a problem, but that is how the public school system works



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
That's primarily because of the complete lack of competition and 'free trade' in the education system but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

And yet a clear majority (> 75%) of students at our most reputable and revered Scientific institutions of higher learning - MIT, Caltech, UC Berkeley, Georgia Tech, University of Illinois - are students who graduated from public schools.

The reality is that not everyone can study - or even should study - science, engineering, and math. It really isn't for everyone.

The reason countries like India and Korea and China churn out engineers and scientists today is because a career in engineering is a sure fire way to make it to the middle class. In the US, there are lots of other avenues. However, as these countries get richer and other jobs in service and financial industries become more prevalent, we may see a drop in the relative number of engineers in these countries.


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

If things continue to go the way they are, there will be no more middle class. Only an upper and lower class, and the lower class will obviously suffer because of this. There will be a huge gap that cannot be filled. With a missing middle class, we are setting ourselves up for corruption, as the rich and powerful want to get wealthier, the lower class will continue to go downward, as work oppertunities will decrease. Really, it all depends on where you rest at the moment, especially those who are just starting their careers, and the younger generations, for it is them that will either benefit the most or suffer the most because of outsourcing.

If right now, you have a high financial profile, you will likely get richer, if you have a low or non-existent financial profile, start working on it now, because you may have lesser chances later on to make a profit.

Networking has become a more and more important technique to landing those really good jobs. When I met with the career center in college, they told me that networking is the number one way people get jobs. Indeed, it worked for me as I got a job. You have to network these days. It's all about who you know and what you can get from them, and what they can get from you.

The thing with networking is, you don't have to be the absolute best at what you do to get hired. I'm not saying that I do a shabby job, but there are probably people out there who were, at the time I got hired, more equipped for the job. But, I beat them out because I had a network that included the company I work for.

It should be interesting to see how things develope. The problem is, the US isn't going to do much about it because we are a corporation based society, whether we like to think so or not. It's about big business, across all political party lines. If you didn't think Kerry had big business in the back of his mind, then you aren't very aware. Any political campaign requires donations. They are simply too expensive for the candidate to absorb the entire cost. The higher the position, the more big business determines the candidates political agenda. So, since we are a corporation based society, the corporations are going to look out for themselves and outsource, since the labor is cheaper.

However, eventually, with the demise of the middle class, these companies are going to lose business, as the middle class is the largest class in the US, and the ones who spend and make the most money (talking about gross income combined, not individual). Unfortunately, companies seem to not be looking to far into the future, otherwise they would be keeping a large amount of labor in the US. And they are really going to be screwed with the rise of the middle classes in the countries they outsource to. As the middle class rises there, there will be a demand for higher wages. Just you wait and see.

UAL


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 16):
And yet a clear majority (> 75%) of students at our most reputable and revered Scientific institutions of higher learning - MIT, Caltech, UC Berkeley, Georgia Tech, University of Illinois - are students who graduated from public schools.

Considering 90% of the population is in public schools this should not be a shock to anyone.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineIADBGO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Yeah that is the problem that I have with the arguement as well. If the government gave you a couple grand to go back to school that would be alright if you lost a job...but they don't do that...so you can go from one low paying job to another.


In other words, the theory makes sense, and works sometimes...but not all the time.


IADBGO


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Considering 90% of the population is in public schools this should not be a shock to anyone.

Its also a tacit reminder that most of our public schools are doing a damn good job if their students have the grades, the scores, and the ability to not only survive 4 years of MIT or Caltech, but to excel there.

Yes, we have lousy public schools, especially in inner city neighborhoods, but by and large the public school system does a pretty good job. In the end, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

While I concer with people who have lost jobs due to outsourcing, IMO, it is an indication that we must improve our education system (among other things) to prevent the next generation from not being able to find jobs that old generations have had.

I already think it sucks that the percentage of students going on to college from even my local HS has been dropping since I graduated. I think it is because of the tougher tests and not enough non-math/english related programs, etc. We are giving them no choice, but pushing smaller percentages of people up the system. On top of that, the living expense here in San Diego is skyrocketing and minimum wage is still pathetic. On top of even that, the old generation is coming out of retirement and take jobs from those would be young workers, college bound or not.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1261 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 21):
While I concer with people who have lost jobs due to outsourcing

If you consider all jobs that are lost at any moment, outsourcing is responsible for a small minority of them. I bet plain innovation/automation/technology is responsible for far more job losses than outsourcing.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1250 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
You're sounding like a protectionist Democrat beholden to Union interests, ANC. That's not like you. The anti-outsourcing nonsense didn't help John Kerry and its unlikely to help the US.

Not at all Jaysit - I'm a protectionist AMERICAN beholden to AMERICAN jobs that are being sent elsewhere by AMERICAN companies that ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves.

The anti-outsourcing nonesense isn't the only thing that didn't help Kerry.

When every American that wants a job has a job - then we can outsource the hell out of them. Until then, it's simply wrong.


User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1227 times:

Hmm, thank you for all the perspectives. It seems as though outsourcing by way of not hiring new positions may not be as bad as some of what is being down nowadays. For example, a 45-year veteran lathe operator retires and they don't fill his job, slowing outsourcing that way.

At the place I work at people are continuing to be laid off and even engineering has started to move!



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
25 RJpieces : Its called globalization. Its best to get used to accents different than yours. Besides a lot of these call center people are coached to speak in an a
26 B744F : Ladies and gentlemen, since your schools never taught you this, lets go over a history lesson real quickly. Globalization was tried and failed by the
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