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US Aid To Israel  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

I found this ad by FLAME (Facts and Logic about the Middle East) in the latest edition of Commentary. I thought this essay did a good job of summarizing why Israel is a strategic asset to the US. When push comes to shove, no lobby can build the kind of relationship the United States has with Israel. I don't want to start a war here...But when A.netters wonder why the US is supportive of Israel, this is one of the many reasons why.

What are the Facts?

The only democratic country in the Middle East. Israel is the only genuinely democratic state in the Middle East. It is committed to freedom and equality, and the rule of law. It embodies the fundamental values that are in tune with those of America and that America has traditionally supported. Israel’s military and political importance in the Middle East and its strategic position stabilize the entire area, including the oil fields of the Persian Gulf. During the Cold War, it was America’s indispensable rampart against the inroads and expansionist ambitions of the Soviet Union. It is now a western bulwark against the aggressive intents of Iran and other bellicose nations that threaten the interests of the United States. It is a most reliable partner in the promotion of Western strategic interests and in the stabilization of the Middle East. Over 20% of its budget goes for defense, compared to 7% in the U.S. and less than 1% in Japan. Israel has one of the best armies in the world. Its navy and air force are the major deterrent forces in the eastern Mediterranean.

Israel effectively secures NATO’s southeastern flank, without having a single American soldier stationed in its territory. Still, the superb military installations, the air and sea lift capabilities, the equipment and food storage capacity, and the trained manpower to maintain and repair sophisticated U.S. equipment are instantly at hand in Israel. It is the only country in the area that makes itself available to the United States, in any contingency.

Only fraction of aid stays in Israel. There is no other country in the Middle East except Israel that can be considered to have a stable government or populace friendly to the United States. There is much danger that any military aid to Arab countries, and military equipment given or sold to them, will suffer the same fate as the untold billions of dollars and priceless military secrets that were lost to our enemies in the debacle of Iran. Is Saudi Arabia more stable? Egypt? Jordan? Kuwait? Judge for yourself!

Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel. By far the largest share remains with American defense contractors. Peter McPherson, former administrator of the Agency for International Development, estimated that every billion dollars of aid to Israel creates 60,000 to 70,000 jobs in the United States.

Compared to the $2.0 billion yearly military aid to Israel, the U.S. contributes more than $130 billion(!) every year to the defense of Europe and more than $30 billion to the defense of Japan, Korea, and the Far East. Over 300,000 U.S. troops are stationed with NATO and over 30,000 U.S. troops in the Far East. In contrast, not one single U.S. soldier needs to be stationed and put at risk in Israel. U.S. military analysts estimate that the U.S. would have to spend the equivalent of $150 billion a year in the Middle East to maintain a force equivalent to Israel’s.

There are many other benefits that the U.S. military derives from Israel. Israel is the only country that has gained battlefield experience with U.S. weapons. This experience is immediately conveyed to the U.S. Enormous quantities of captured Soviet weapons and defense systems were turned over to the U.S. military for analysis. Israel, in the light of its experience, continually modifies U.S. weapons systems. For instance, Israeli scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone and similar improvements, mostly in avionics, in later-generation planes. It would be more in line with reality if military aid to Israel were classified as part of the defense budget, rather than as “aid”. Israel is truly America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East. Former President Reagan put it well: “The fall of Iran has increased Israel’s value as perhaps the only remaining strategic asset in the region on which the United States can fully rely.” American aid to Israel is a two-way street. Aid to Israel is America’s greatest defense bargain.

178 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3085 times:

True, Israel is an important strategic asset for America in the middle east, it should also be pointed out that from time to time Israel can do America's dirty work, like bombing nuclear reactors of Arab countries.

However, what the article doesn't mention, is that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians has been horrible. This situation is a big reason Muslims from all over the world dislike American policies and is one of the ideological underpinnings of terrorism against America. Supporting Israel costs Americans tremendously more then the billions in direct aid, supporting Israel so one-sidedly costs America's reputation endlessly.

Israel also has elements of a theocracy and is not quite the robust western-style democracy they'd have us believe.

Cairo


User currently offlineYAK42 From Ireland, joined Oct 2000, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Are you real? Are you just trying to start a flame war? As far as I know you could even be anti-Israeli and trying to raise the heckles about it.

User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

I'm not going to discuss this because its been discussed so many times and only leads to a fight. One thing though...

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Over 20% of its budget goes for defense, compared to 7% in the U.S. and less than 1% in Japan. Israel has one of the best armies in the world. Its navy and air force are the major deterrent forces in the eastern Mediterranean.

Doesn't the United States spend over half of our budget on defense/armed forces?



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Over 20% of its budget goes for defense

Huh? More like 12%

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Only a fraction of the aid given stays in Israel.

The US aid $$$ are ONLY allowed to be spent for US industries.

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone

That's the F-15I. Not any F-15. Same goes for F-16I



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineYAK42 From Ireland, joined Oct 2000, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

Oh I just noted that you wrote the word FLAME in you topic post. Why did I even respond?

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Doesn't the United States spend over half of our budget on defense/armed forces?

No. Think about how much money that would be.....


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26811 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
It is committed to freedom and equality

Except for those of Arab or Iranian descent

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
and the rule of law.

Except fully binding International Law

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
aggressive intents of Iran

A nation that has not acted as aggressor, while Israel has

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The fall of Iran

Fall to where?

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
scientists have made over 200 improvements in the F-15 alone

That's the F-15I. Not any F-15. Same goes for F-16I

Those were not improvements, rather optimisations for use in Israel. I would not consider the Japanese versions of the F15 improvements either, rather tailor made to Japan's use.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Those were not improvements, rather optimisations for use in Israel.

Actually neither. It just has entirely different avionics. Developed in Israel.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 9):
It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

Unfortunately our nation did not come to life in the Rocky mountains or the forests of the Iroquoi  Smile

Besides, isn't Belgium an Islamic state already? Or was it France?  Smile



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

It was Palestine or Madagascar. Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position?

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11):
Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position

Sure. And the Sweds should move to China.

Besides this is totally irrelevant in since 1948.

[Edited 2005-07-02 22:28:21]


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Many swedes are moving to China and is opening factories etc.

And it was a jewish ghetto in Shanghai before.

Some of them came to Sweden after WW2.

http://www.shanghaighetto.com/about.html


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2262 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Bofredrik,

You just don't get it, do you?



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8765 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 11):
It was Palestine or Madagascar. Maybe Madagascar had been a safer place than the current position?

Oye vey... If you're trying to get into something ugly, you're doing pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

You know better than me about your history so tell us all.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

If you´re looking for a fight, Bofredrik, go to your local bar and start insulting the guests. You´ll get your buzz a lot easier and more thoroughly that way...  fight 

User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Not at all. I just want to discuss this from another angle than the usual PC. And i do not go to a bar as i do not drink.  champagne 

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2967 times:

Except for those of Arab or Iranian descent

All I will say to that is:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/594501.html

Reading that article yesterday, I couldn't note the irony. It made me smile. It still amazes me that Israeli Arabs have the most rights out of any Arabs in the Middle East.

Fall to where?

Fall from being a stable US ally to what it is today.

It would be better to move Israel to the USA & the people. Israel do not belong in that region. It would be like having a Islamic state where Belgium is in Europe...

Umm, no thanks. Israel was a country long before 1948. Since many of the zionist pioneers arrived there starting in the 1880s, the Jewish communities in Palestine had long established local governments, schools, newspapers, Hebrew as a spoken language, a military, etc. Israel was in effect a country long before it was established.


User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Maybe, but it was a lot of people there since many many many years. Palestinians/arabs etc. And many of them had to me moved. And most of them is still living in camps. Is that fair? No.

User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Reading that article yesterday, I couldn't note the irony. It made me smile. It still amazes me that Israeli Arabs have the most rights out of any Arabs in the Middle East.

...because they can file copyright infringment cases? Yep, I see what you mean  Yeah sure

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Fall from being a stable US ally to what it is today.

...so stable that a revolution took place. What it is today is a hundred times better than what it was when it was a US ally.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
Umm, no thanks. Israel was a country long before 1948. Since many of the zionist pioneers arrived there starting in the 1880s, the Jewish communities in Palestine had long established local governments, schools, newspapers, Hebrew as a spoken language, a military, etc. Israel was in effect a country long before it was established.

So Israel counts as a country pre-1948 according to you because there were a few Jewish hospitals and schools, while Palestine, which has the one of the world's richest histories, had been Arab for 1000+ years, had schools, hospitals, everything you can think of established for hundreds of years, does not count as one pre-1948? Talk about hypocracy.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

QR, I don't want to get into this debate, again.....The point of this thread was to point out to you and others who wonder why the US is so pro-Israeli.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 16):
You know better than me about your history so tell us all.

One of the benefits of the Hypertext Markup Language (HTML for short) is the possibility to link different pages. The undelined text in Aloges' reply (#15) is called a link. You can click on it and read what Wikipedia has to say on the the So called Madagaskar-Plan.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately our nation did not come to life in the Rocky mountains or the forests of the Iroquoi



Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
Besides this is totally irrelevant in since 1948.

Second that!

Israel is part of the ME, belongs there and has every right to exist and to provide safety and wealth to its citicens. Period. Whether or not the Britons and the the rest of the world could have found a line of the border more wisely choosen than that of 1948 is completely irrelevant.



I never wondered why the US is supportive of Israel, in fact I hope the US remains to be supportive. At the same time I don't think the US should unconditionally support every action the Israeli government takes like it had been the case. President Bush was right (yeah, really!) when he got angry over Sharon's cat-and-mouse game over Jewish settlements in Gaza.
The US sometimes seems to forget that Israel is part of a region and that peace won't be possible as long as the Arabic population is dissatisfied and feels ignored by the western world. Thus, a more balanced view could probably help Israel more than implicit support.

[Edited 2005-07-02 23:28:02]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineShawn Patrick From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2956 times:

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 24):
Israel is part of the ME, belongs there and has every right to exist

I think it's ironic that there are 3 million people in Gaza and the West Bank, and 93% of those are Palestinian. (statistic is only a few years old). I still don't know why it was OK for a lot of European Jews to invade Palestine and displace/kill/enslave millions of Palestinians. I would say that's NOT ok...

[Edited 2005-07-02 23:29:07]

25 NoUFO : Ahem, they didn't.
26 Shawn Patrick : Then what really happened, NoUFO?
27 RJpieces : I think it's ironic that there are 3 million people in Gaza and the West Bank, and 93% of those are Palestinian. (statistic is only a few years old).
28 Post contains images QR332 : Ok then, lets discuss that... To begin with, let me say that all the hatred that is aimed at the US and all the bitterness has been caused by the act
29 RJpieces : At the same time I don't think the US should unconditionally support every action the Israeli government takes like it had been the case. President Bu
30 NoUFO : You make the second genesis of Israel look like an invasion of warmongering Jews, which wasn't the case. It has got more to do with the end of the Br
31 Post contains images Aloges : Congrats on turning yet another thread into an Israel vs. Palestine flamefest!
32 RJpieces : Ok then, lets discuss that... Thank you. To begin with, let me say that all the hatred that is aimed at the US and all the bitterness has been caused
33 RJpieces : Congrats on turning yet another thread into an Israel vs. Palestine flamefest! We're discussing US support of Israel, not 100+ year old history.
34 KyleLosAngeles : RJpieces, Do you care about ANYTHING else? Is there ONE other subject that you can even spend 5 minutes thinking about? It seems that no matter what a
35 Fumanchewd : Why won't Jordan take them? Or Egypt? It is because it is unacceptable for the Arab world to accept that Jews are there and the camps are an internat
36 RJpieces : RJpieces, Kyle, Do you care about ANYTHING else? Is there ONE other subject that you can even spend 5 minutes thinking about? Do a search of my posts
37 RJpieces : Why won't Jordan take them? Or Egypt? It is because it is unacceptable for the Arab world to accept that Jews are there and the camps are an internati
38 LY7E7 : Since when is Israel in posession/control of any oil fields? Check up your facts first...[Edited 2005-07-03 00:23:00]
39 Post contains images Fumanchewd : Sorry. ...but did you really start a thread on US-Israel and think that there would not be points and counterpoints about Palestine. Come on now, I m
40 RJpieces : Sorry. ...but did you really start a thread on US-Israel and think that there would not be points and counterpoints about Palestine. Come on now, I ma
41 FlyAUA : And don't forget all the water (more precious than oil in the region) it steals by strategically having placed it's borders. While certain people in
42 KyleLosAngeles : Here is just a sampling of your posts - and these are threads that YOU STARTED. 49 Iraqi Soldiers Executed A Policy For Palestinians A Survivor Of Pa
43 Aloges : Wasn't Turkey pis**ng off Iraq (and probably Syria, too) when they built the Euphrat dams?
44 RJpieces : Here is just a sampling of your posts - and these are threads that YOU STARTED. Your point? You accused me of not posting in other threads and a quick
45 Post contains images FlyAUA : I think so, but unlike other places, Syria has less of a water problem. Syria was famous for it's electricity problem, and Jordan was famous for it's
46 RJpieces : Still, Israel gets about 80-90% as much water as Jordan does for example from the "same sources". Jordan wouldn't be getting the water anyway, unless
47 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Which is irrelevant of itself, unless recognized by sovereign nations. Check your ancient history. Who do you love? I guess they could've stuck aroun
48 KyleLosAngeles : Because it represents 84.22% of the threads that you have started in non-AV. And despite you naively asking me about it again - THAT was my point. Yo
49 RJpieces : And if you can repeatedly post these manic Middle East threads on a daily basis, then yes I can post in them, around them or whatever I want. Dearest,
50 KyleLosAngeles : Oh, yeah? How about yesterday?
51 Allstarflyer : I would disagree. I enjoy this topic, but, then, I'm a big fan of Israel, so. -R
52 Post contains images Superfly : There goes Rjsettlements again!
53 RJpieces : Oh, yeah? How about yesterday? And before yesterday, which wasn't really an Israeli-Palestinian thread, 2 MONTHS AGO. Your argument has no merit. If y
54 Fumanchewd : I also enjoy the discussion. If you don't like the topic, don't read it.
55 RJpieces : And Superfly, what is your response to this well-researched essay above? Do you want to stop the $130 billion that allows European countries to have v
56 KyleLosAngeles : Don't assume that I'm not a fan if Israel. This isn't about that.
57 RJpieces : Kyle, are you going to continue to ramble or perhaps post your opinion? I'm sure you have thoughts of your own...Now just type them up.
58 FlyAUA : What's your point? Jordan is not getting more water because Israel has got it's hand on it due to the way the borders developed. I am not talking abo
59 RJpieces : Do you really think the Jordan River is a source for water. That "river" is an entire 12 inches wide or so! Haha, it is quite narrow! I was surprised
60 AA777 : Yeah, well too bad they go around supporting a nation that opresses millions and kills thousands of people. Maybe if the U.S. realized that the Weste
61 Fumanchewd : Who? That isn't Israel.
62 Allstarflyer : Hmm, I guess that's what I perceived when I wrote that, so forgive me my remark - poor choice of words. And, anyway, to reiterate, just about any thr
63 RJpieces : Yeah, well too bad they go around supporting a nation that opresses millions and kills thousands of people. By your same standard, the US oppresses mi
64 FlyAUA : Excuse me but the Arab nations and governments existed before the North America was even discovered! Why do you continue to think that the US govt. i
65 RJpieces : Excuse me but the Arab nations and governments existed before the North America was even discovered! Why do you continue to think that the US govt. is
66 Post contains images Fumanchewd : This is irrelevant and also incorrect. A majority of Arab governments are less than 100 years old. A good majority of Arab governments are also ruled
67 Post contains images Fumanchewd :
68 FlyAUA : Clearly you have not been to the region lately! You are right that they are not as advanced as say Japan, or Europe, or the USA, but there are certai
69 Post contains links Fumanchewd : No, not until things change. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4260599.stm http://muttawa.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_muttawa_archive.html[Edited 20
70 Post contains images AA777 : Woopdeedoo RJ. A democracy has never fought a democracy. Does that mean that we have the right to decide who is a democracy and who isnt? You contrad
71 Post contains images FlyAUA : " target=_blank>http://muttawa.blogspot.com/2004_05_....html Great, you take the 2 most extreme cases and show me the links. No wonder you make those
72 Post contains images Fumanchewd : What was that about being offtopic?
73 Post contains images FlyAUA : LOL That was not started by me, I was responding to somebody who had already gone off topic. Anyways, I just saw this now... we've IMed eachother now
74 N1120A : You mean fall from complete dictatorship to a land of free elections and rule of law? You get into this debate every single time. Your reasoning as t
75 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Thank you for the clarification. Here's to the U.S. maintaining its own sovereign interests in light of any entity as illegitimate as the UN (can you
76 LY7E7 : Which is an Israeli territory since 1948. Legally and non-occupied. What really strikes me any time is that no matter what Arab/Moslem country in the
77 N1120A : Well, lets see. The US is a signatory to the UN Charter and that Charter, which is a treaty between the states that have signed it, was ratified by t
78 LY7E7 : And Mullahs' state terrorism lives and flourishes.
79 FlyAUA : I could finger-point the "crimes" you mention to any nation's history. That is my point. Thanks for proving exactly what I stated. Before 1948 this w
80 LY7E7 : Wrong again. That specific boundary was determined by the UN. OK, I understand you now. These are not crimes. These are "crimes".
81 RJpieces : You mean fall from complete dictatorship to a land of free elections and rule of law? Elections in Iran are far from free. Is this gonna be another QR
82 FlyAUA : Since when is Israel scared of the UN!? I'd say it's more of an ally rather than a regulatory body or whatever they claim to be.
83 LY7E7 : Irrelevant. The specific UN decision was made before Israel existed.
84 Tbar220 : I do believe this is the case. I understand its a lot of money, but I'm pretty sure that in the last budget the our government appoved, slightly over
85 Post contains images AA777 : And so does Israel's state-terrorism of the Palestinians, yet the U.S. still supports them with Billions of dollars each year. Remember, the Arabs ar
86 LY7E7 : AA777, if you are so bothered with that I suggest you to approach your local congress representative instead of posting ignorant messages.
87 Post contains images AA777 : Oh my apologies. I wouldnt want to make you remember the truth of the Israeli government, and the fact that they terrorize people (in their own way)
88 LY7E7 : Nonsense. Make a search to see what are my opinions on the occupation and see my RU list.
89 RJpieces : BTW, there's no use approaching my 'local congress representative' because they are all attached to nice pro-Israel lobbying groups' payrolls..... its
90 N1120A : Dude, you just don't get it do you?
91 Wassch71 : RJPieces, I recently read a very inspiring book by an Israeli historian, "One Palestine Complete", by Tom Segev. Segev's book relates a very vivid his
92 Aleksandar : Actually, the "modern history" or history of the twentieth century started in 1918 and Peace Treaty when new countries were created (such as Czechosl
93 Post contains images RJpieces : Thank you for the exact kind of post I wanted this thread to be! I recently read a very inspiring book by an Israeli historian, "One Palestine Complet
94 Post contains images Wassch71 : Aleksandar, you're the historian here The highly emotional Middle East threads are fertile grounds for mis-understandings; I will not bother you with
95 Post contains links and images AA777 : RJ, please, dont make me vomit. I love the ANTI-SEMETIC BS that you throw around all the time. Anyone who is not pro-Israel automatically hates all J
96 RJpieces : The highly emotional Middle East threads are fertile grounds for mis-understandings; I will not bother you with a longer comment. Please do. I've alwa
97 RJpieces : RJ, please, dont make me vomit. I love the ANTI-SEMETIC BS that you throw around all the time. Anyone who is not pro-Israel automatically hates all Je
98 AA777 : Lol, I have no reason to joke. U.S. politics is all about who has money. Who can pay top dollar. Lots of other people do it. There is no reason as to
99 Wassch71 : RJ Pieces Misunderstandings are rather the norm than the exception in most of the threads pertaining to the Middle East. I still remember a thread on
100 Post contains images QR332 : Unconditional support for Israel is one of the main reasons - and the support of dictators is the other. The support of Middle Eastern dictatorship h
101 NoUFO : Well, the US does no longer spend money on defending Europe or Japan. They keep the bases or merely move some of them to eastern Europe to maintain a
102 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - Your information is faulty ! Arabs in both countries still are a minority. - And, ehmmmm, just in case, you Israelis are to move over to the Rockie
103 ME AVN FAN : it was Uganda. But they possibly also could have got Greenland or Arizona !
104 ME AVN FAN : - while the main reason is that the USA that way have an outpost in the Middle East.
105 ME AVN FAN : > they have problems in meeting relatives in other Arab countries > they canNOT travel to many Arab countries > they canNOT marry anybody from anothe
106 ME AVN FAN : - because US-Americans majority-wise are NOT interested in things outside their borders, do not care, are ill-informed and full of prejudice. And of
107 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - the "real thing" would have been to give them, after WW-II, Northern Bavaria and Hessen, leaving the Germans with East Germany, North-West Germany
108 ME AVN FAN : A) Few do still live in camps. Most former camps have long ago become villages and towns. Even Sabra and Shatila south of Beirut have become actual s
109 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : - THIS is absolutely NEW ! When driving in Cairo next time I will remember to tell people that they do NOT exist ! -
110 ME AVN FAN : - You exaggerate widely. Egypt may not yet be fully democratic but is NOT "totalitarian". Tunisia is a dictatorship and its president has a doubtful
111 ME AVN FAN : Quoting Wassch71 (Reply 91): maybe the 21st century has not started yet... - You however might as well say that it started in 1990/91 with the breakdo
112 Ly7e7 : As any other Israeli. This is definetely not a discrimination. Huh? Give me ONE example of Israeli Arab expelled out of Israel and/or stripped of cit
113 ME AVN FAN : - Quite clearly YES. Totalitarian is what communist and fascist (Nazist) countries were, with a totalitarian ideology. You of course can also describ
114 LY7E7 : Quite clearly NO. Dictatorship is a totalitarian or an authoritarian (where dictator is replaced by a small group that act as a dictator) governing f
115 Post contains links RJpieces : Lol, I have no reason to joke. U.S. politics is all about who has money. Who can pay top dollar. Lots of other people do it. There is no reason as to
116 Damirc : Where did it exist? I find it sick, that you deny any existence of a state or a state-like structure in then Palestine, yet claim that Israel as a st
117 Post contains images Aleksandar : Hmmm, we're talking about ancient history now. when dinosaurs happily ran around and when I was younger, much smarter and wanted to be a historian. T
118 RJpieces : Where did it exist? In the Jewish sections of Palestine, essentially an Israeli state already existed. The lines of partition were drawn to separate t
119 Damirc : So by your criteria - did the Palestinian State exist? D.
120 LY7E7 : In today's world the word anti-semitism is being used to describe racism against Jews. We could argue about that, yet ultimately compromises are unav
121 Aleksandar : And it still isn't accurate... I couldn't agree with you more on that, but it leads to another huge problem - Jewish settlements. Even if pullout fro
122 RJpieces : I couldn't agree with you more on that, but it leads to another huge problem - Jewish settlements. Even if pullout from Gaza goes on according to plan
123 Aleksandar : Hey, it's not fair and it definitely isn't something I wanted to say. First, I have no reason to be on anybody's side. Second, after spending some ti
124 RJpieces : Aleksander, in no way did I mean to attack you. All I'm saying is why is it automatically assumed that Jews must be removed from the West Bank when Pa
125 N1120A : Europe and not on the internet all that much AKA Nut Job McGee Why must any state be founded on a religio-ethnic identity? This is to the point that
126 Aleksandar : It's OK. Unfortunately, it will happen. One of the main reasons is personal security. After all, human nature is not always perfect.... Second, Israe
127 LY7E7 : Welcome to threads about Israel {LOL} That's however is the semantic situation. Any Israeli retreat to 67 borders will always be accompanied by disma
128 ME AVN FAN : - well, Egypt is a democracy with democratic elections and an elected state president
129 LY7E7 : Uhu, and Mr. Hosni Mubarak is hugely popular. He keeps getting 99% of the votes every referendum.
130 Damirc : Again, RJpieces .... since you've "missed" the previous post... Did by your criteria a Palestinian state exist in this region at the same time you cl
131 Tbar220 : Wow, what did Israelis do to you to deserve such hate from a Swiss man?
132 ME AVN FAN : - it has to mean that Palestinians will have the right to "return" to the Palestinian Republic in the Gaza Strip, on the WestBank and in East Jerusal
133 ME AVN FAN : Mr Mubarak never was "hugely popular", but would easily have won really open presidential elections. Suppose it is his training in Moscow up to the g
134 ME AVN FAN : Such hate ? there is no hate involved, none at all Swiss man ? well, I do live in Switzerland
135 RJpieces : well, Egypt is a democracy with democratic elections and an elected state president Haha, this is a joke, right? it has to mean that Palestinians will
136 LY7E7 : You wouldn't know irony if it bit you in the a$$ , huh ? One of which is normally taking between 380 to 420 of 444 seats. I.e. - this is nothing but
137 ME AVN FAN : - Egypt and Jordan OFFICIALLY have accepted and recognized Israel and signed peace treaties. Egypt by the size of population amounts to roughly 30% o
138 ME AVN FAN : - not exceedingly democratic I admit, but for sure the best option available -
139 LY7E7 : Don't know about that. How about some Gulf states?
140 ME AVN FAN : Governments in Qatar, the UAE and Oman are NOT democratic but fairly liberal and leave considerable freedom to their folks. So that many people are i
141 B744F : Almost anybody was free to stay when Israel was created as a nation, those that chose to listen to the arab cries of move out of the way so we can sla
142 ME AVN FAN : Most Palestinians who fled in 1948 fled due to panic, often caused by massacres and chicaneries done by the "Israelis" The Arab radio stations urged
143 LY7E7 : Not entirely true. "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED
144 ME AVN FAN : Here I clearly DISagree with Abu Mazen. The Egyptian army did NOT abandon the Palestinians, did NOT force anyone to emigrate and to leave, and did NO
145 LY7E7 : Here's another historic reference: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Ara
146 ME AVN FAN : THIS section is THE point in question --- but YOU should be grateful for that because it enabled your country got expand to its pre-1967 borders, whi
147 LY7E7 : I would be grateful if no war started in the first place. What's your point anyway?
148 B744F : Complete nonsense. While I'm not going to deny a small number of massacres did not take place, you are taking history completely out of context Ridic
149 RJpieces : You don't have any claim to any land once you start a war and then lose. And yet Israel has offered them most of what they supposedly want and they tu
150 ME AVN FAN : They have the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. And it is in those territories where the Arab Republic of Palestine is to be established.
151 ME AVN FAN : THIS is complete and absolute NONSENSE. They may have the right to vote some folks into the Knesseth, but otherwise do NOT have "more freedom". Their
152 LY7E7 : The term "Palestine" is in no way of Roman origins. It originates in the biblical tribe of Plishtim that were living at the south-eastern shore of the
153 ME AVN FAN : The "offer" which was turned down (only ONE such "offer") was an offer offering the Palestinians the fate of the US-American Red Indians, that means
154 B744F : Some land is better than no land though, right? How about using that as a stepping stone? Instead they completely rejected it and continued the violen
155 LY7E7 : That's true for an average Israeli - Jewish or Arab. See, we don't have oil over here.
156 ME AVN FAN : The wages, beside the voting for the Knesseth, are one of two relative "advantages" the Israeli Arabs have. Otherwise they do NOT have more freedom t
157 ME AVN FAN : no
158 B744F : OK, so running away from the peace treaty to order more suicide bombings is the best tactic they could have used... good to see what type of moral per
159 ME AVN FAN : the PLO never supported "suicide bombings". And Yassir Arafat continued to offer serious negotiations. They now take place.
160 B744F : WHAT???
161 LY7E7 : BS. Point me to discriminatory laws. They are represented in the Knesset, they study in all academic institutions (in some of which they exceed their
162 Post contains images Fumanchewd : I was merely trying to make the point that the Palestinians claim to the land is no more authentic than the Israeli's. It has always seemed somewhat
163 Fumanchewd : If you had read my post, I said that Saudi has pretenses of secularism, but they are not. And it is very convenient for you to say that Saudi is mosl
164 Tbar220 : Uhhh... no offense buddy, but what are you on? Cause I want some of that...
165 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : and how would you liked to be FORCED to get up and move to Canada? Near the North Pole too? Hey, people speak English there? I most probably wouldn't
166 LY7E7 : Don't rush into conclusions and read my posts. Overall your whole post is ridiculous. You're just trying to figure out who killed more, instead of lo
167 ME AVN FAN : - yes, the self-sacrifice concept was done by Hamas and Islamic Jihad who are outsiders and NOT in the PLO and some people out of el-Fatah who dislik
168 LY7E7 : No problem, unless she is from PA, Syria, etc. But considering the fact that we are at 'war' it's no surprise. They serve in IDF and Police(voluntari
169 Post contains images Jacobin777 : whats so ridiculous? it doesn't "agree" with your views? and I didn't do any "figuring" as you so incorrectly put it...those are stats (which most ca
170 Post contains links Allstarflyer : "Who was there first" shouldn't be the prevailing attitude, as further elaborated here: That was in reference to this: Just because Israel was there
171 Post contains links Jacobin777 : that has to be the understatement of the year.. Amnesty International report: "Covering events from January - December 2004 The Israeli army killed m
172 LY7E7 : Do you know what my views are? Don't bother to answer before studying all of my posts in non-av. Check out my RU list as well.
173 ME AVN FAN : - the "at-war" status in question of course is a problem. But hardly the guilt of the Israeli Arabs. They in such things simply are victims of the wi
174 LY7E7 : Listen, if they suffer so much they can always leave with their Syrian bride and live freely and happily there. Guess what ? Nobody does it (with tin
175 ME AVN FAN : - The jobs situation in Palestine for quite some time will NOT be very good, and better in Israel. --- The couple mentioned of course would love to l
176 Post contains links Tbar220 : You really ought to get your facts straight. You claimed that the PLO was never supportive of suicide bombings. In 1969, the PLO was founded by Yasse
177 ME AVN FAN : Yassir Arafat in 1964 founded el-Fatah. The PLO which was established a bit earlier by Ahmed Shukeiry, the leader of the PLA (Palestine Liberation Ar
178 RJpieces : Try asking an Israeli Arab a simple question of " If tomorrow a Palestinian state is established in internationally recognized borders of 1967, will
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