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World War 2 Question  
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

At the beginning of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" during the beach landing I noticed how difficult it was for the landing troops because they were being pinned down by German gunfire from high on the dunes. Does anyone know why the allies didn't have any close air support for the troops on the ground that day? It probably would of saved more lives if they had air support.

(maybe they did have air support that day and they didn't show it in the movie?)


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

I think that they were trying to secure the beach without the Germans to realize that they were doing so.Tht's why they had to beach heads, one to be a decoy and the second one that was the real one.So CAS would alert the germans, thus spoiling the whole op.
anyways, I think that tried with Airborne troops, but something went wrong so thay landed anywhere else and a lot got injured.
My two cents.I'm no historian.

mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

Well, this probably is a MilAv thread, but thats beside the point.

The air was called for in Operation Overlord, but most of it either hit up to a mile inland or was ineffective against the bunkers that were very strong. Naval gunfire also prepped the beaches, but there comes a point when the beach must be siezed.

In the movie what you saw was the Omaha Beach landing, which occured between Vierville sur Mer (and her cliffs which led to the Point du Hoc) and the area just beyond Colleville. This beach was actually the best prepared beach for the defenders and was pre-sited in by a Machine Gun Division of the German Army. The defenders had literally thousands of machine guns as well as mortars pre-positioned and staked so that every square centimeter of that beach was covered. By ill-fated coincidence this beach was also seemingly missed by the pre landing bombardments by aircraft and naval vessels. There was no week long prep of the site as surprise was deemed to be crucial....and it was. The 1st ID (the Big Red One) and the 29thID (the Blue and the Grey Division, a NG division that was blooded at these landings) overcame incredible odds and obstacles, including the loss of almost all the armor to rough seas and poor placement by the offloading craft (mostly they sank, and their surviving crews joined the Infantry).

The other beaches fell much more easily than Omaha, and though not without cost to the Canadians, British and other Allied troops that landed that day.

Utah Beach was taken by a single US division, the 4th, led ashore by BG Teddy Roosevelt, the son of President Roosevelt, and who died there shortly thereafter of a heart attack.

Sword and Gold Beaches were taken by British Infantry divisions, under Montgomery...the Ground Commander under Eisenhower back in England (who flew over the battlefield in a modified Mustang that afternoon).

Juno Beach was hit by the Canadian division which had the most experience of any of the other units besides the 1st US Division, as many of their members had landed at Dieppe a couple years previous in a test landing that went very badly upon exfil.

I have the feeling I should leave some for Jan, so I'll end here.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Except for my mentioning of the US 101st, 82d, and British 6th (Pegasus) Airborne Divisions which landed earlier that evening by parachute and glider (the first troops ashore were the Brits under Major J. Howard who landed near and seized the swing bridge over the Orne River Canal which led to Caen) and they were scattered all over the assigned DZs by high winds, poor visibility, primitive navigation, oh, and large volumes of AAA.

These soldiers held the bridges and passes until the mechanized infantry could establish a foothold and kept the Germans from concentrating all their forces at the beaches, in addition to creating serious confusion within the German command who thought it might be a raid with parachuting commandos.

The beaches were not attacked at all by Allied air, who were kept a mile back from them after the 1st landings.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3997 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

Thanks for the history lesson! Some fascinating stuff! So if Omaha Beach was hit with pre landing bombardments by aircraft and naval vessels it would of made things a little better for the troops. Why did they miss that beach?

I am so glad I found that movie was on TV tonight un-cut and un-censored. That movie would of been terrible if they cut and censored it.



Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineOzLAME From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 338 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Utah Beach was taken by a single US division, the 4th, led ashore by BG Teddy Roosevelt, the son of President Roosevelt, and who died there shortly thereafter of a heart attack.

IIRC from my reading The Longest Day many years ago "Utah' beach was actually the wrong beach and because of this there were fewer than 300 casualties on that beach on the Sixth of June. As for the Naval artillery failing to suppress the defences on Omaha Beach, I think it was a case of the targets being mis-identified and the Naval artillery shelling observation posts overlooking the beach while the German artillery which was inland was left largely intact.
Much effort was expended by the Allies in making the German High-Command think that the invasion would come many miles further north at the Pas de Calais where the English Channel is at it's narrowest. This included major bombing-raids on that area in the weeks prior to the invasion, thus drawing German troops to that part of the coast; the bombing- and Resistance- raids in the Normandy area were inland and designed to stop the German ability to reinforce the defenders, while the airborne (paratroop and glider-borne) part of the invasion was to secure certain bridges that were left intact to facilitate the Allies' efforts to break out from the beachheads.



Monty Python's Flying Circus has nothing to do with aviation, except perhaps for Management personnel.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

There were several problems at Omaha beach. First, there was an intelligence failure. The Allies thought they would only have to face the 726 Grenadier Regiment of the 716 Static Division (a second grade unit, which consisted of both very young and inexperienced and elderly German soldiers, plus units made up of so called "Beutedeutsche", eastern Europeans pressed into German service (Ostbattaillone), the Allies even captured a bunch of Koreans in German uniforms (this is another story I will tell somewhere else). But when they landed the discovered that their opposition also included 914 Regiment and the 916 Regiment of 352 division, who were experienced veteran soldiers. Then, by chance the soldiers had just finished a field exercise, so instead of being sleepy in their garrisons, they were wide awake in their fighting positions.
The next problem was that the armoured component of this assault consisted of waterproofed Sherman tanks, fitted with a canvas float collar and ship's screws. These tanks were launched 6 miles of the shore by the landing craft (The naval commanders were afraid of German underwater obstacles and mines). Since the waves on this day were much higher than expected, together with a strong current, most of them drifted away from the landing zone and most sank. AFAIK there were only three surviving tanks on Omaha beach (they came from a landing craft, who's captain saw what happened to the other tanks and deliberately beached his ship to get the tanks to the shore). If they would have launched them onlyone mile off the shore, it would have worked. Most of the combat engineering component of the assault got also lost, so that the American soldiers were pinned down on the beach and could not destroy the blockhouses. Once the soldiers were on the beach, the Air Force was afraid to hit their own men and deliberately dropped the bombs far. In old areal pictures you can see lots of craters in the fields behind the dunes, but very few on the bunkers.
What I wonder about is that the British and Canadian had very efficient close air support by RAF Typhoons (Tiffy's) armed with rockets. I wonder why nothing similar existed on the western beaches.

Jan


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3750 times:

Quoting OzLAME (Reply 5):
the Naval artillery shelling observation posts overlooking the beach while the German artillery which was inland was left largely intact.

The problem was that the two American airborne divisions should have taken care of German artillery positions further back, but due to the fact that very few soldiers got actually dropped onto their drop zones (due to heavy German AAA fire), but instead were widely scattered all over the Cotendin peninsula and immideately had to face the Fallschirmjägerregiment 6 (German paratroopers, who were based arond Carentan). It took the airborne up to three days to get their units sorted out and assembled.
What they succeeded in though was to cut off the western access to the beaches from German reinforcements. They also took care of German artillery (See Lt. Winters's attack on the German battery at Brecourt Manor).

Jan

[Edited 2005-07-04 08:45:52]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13253 posts, RR: 77
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Quite recently, a programme on CH4 in the UK, had divers go and see what happened to the Sherman DD (Duplex Drive) tanks, most of whom, as pointed out, sank, whereas on other beaches most made it ashore.

In the end, it was determined by their position on the sea bed, that they had made a turn in the water, I cannot remember why, (to get in a better position when reaching the beach probably), but this was lethal, these vehicles were not intended to make such turns in the water, in conjunction with the rough conditions, they sank.


User currently offlineQuebecair727 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3624 times:

Last year I had the pleasure of going to the beaches again. Here are some of the pictures I took.


The 26th Panzer Division was there




Look at the size of the bullet hole.



One of the bunker



The beach seen from the bunker.



Private Ryan? Private Jones? Private Smith? Private someone. Makes no difference who he is. But I guess some of the names on the memorial are not unknown to him.



User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3615 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Quite recently, a programme on CH4 in the UK, had divers go and see what happened to the Sherman DD (Duplex Drive) tanks, most of whom, as pointed out, sank, whereas on other beaches most made it ashore.

In the end, it was determined by their position on the sea bed, that they had made a turn in the water, I cannot remember why, (to get in a better position when reaching the beach probably), but this was lethal, these vehicles were not intended to make such turns in the water, in conjunction with the rough conditions, they sank.

the problem was that the current parallel to the coast was running in a different direction as the waves thrown up by the wind. The current was pushing the tanks further down the coast, away from the landing beaches. When the tankers corrected, they met the waves abeam and not anymore head on, leading to water splashing over the canvas floating belt. This could have been avoided by launching them closer to the shore, as it was done on the other beaches. The Americans were also very reluctant to accept Hobart's funnies, the special tanks developed by the British for mine clearing, road laying, bridging etc..
The British and Canadians had RAF resp. RCAF officers (pilots themselves) with wireless sets on the ground with the forward army units (also naval artillery observers to coordinate the shelling from the battleships, the RN observers never made it back to their ships, but ended eventually up in Germany, fighting as infantrymen) to coordinate airstrikes.

Jan

P.S. Quebecair,
Were the pictures taken at Juno beach? A Dutch friend of mine, who is engaged to a former guide of the Juno Beach Center museum and now living in Caen managed to secure a brick with a grafitti by a rifleman of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada from a farm wall that was being torn down. He contacted the regiment and the Royal Canadian Legion and traced the history of this young man, Riflemann Richard Dyson, apprentice mechanic, who later got killed in a very bloody battle in northern Germany, age of 20. In this battle almost a whole platoon of the QOR got wiped out and the platoon sergeant won the Victoria Cross for literally taking the objective (a fortified farm building with about 20-30 Fallschirmjäger) singlehanded. Unfortunately he himself was killed less than an hour later by a sniper bullet.

Jan



Jan


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3607 times:

Here is a picture of a DD Sherman with it's floatation screen collaped (use on land):


and here with the floatation screen erected for swimming:


Pictures are from the following sites:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hobart.htm
http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/trlout/TRA22135.html

The floation screen only permitted operation in waves up to 0.3 meters. On D-day at Omaha beach the waves were 2 meters high.

Jan


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Wasn't the weather also pretty bad and that influenced the air support?


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
They also took care of German artillery (See Lt. Winters's attack on the German battery at Brecourt Manor).

Classic. As Ambrose has noted and was illustrated in Band of Brothers, Brecourt Manor became a textbook example of assault on a fixed position.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
The Americans were also very reluctant to accept Hobart's funnies, the special tanks developed by the British for mine clearing, road laying, bridging etc..

Glad you made that point Jan...the Funnies were very innovative, they had several different variants and I too wish the Americans would have employed them. The DD Shermans were a big failure....the reasons cited herein, but the History Channel did a great show on this and investigated it in depth.


User currently offlineIakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3316 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

Good point Ezeiza, the weather was indeed bad, with a very low cover and rather poor visibility.

It is only later in the day that it started clearing and by that time the beaches had been secured.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

This is the reason why the air forces bombed to far inland, kiling a lot of cows in the fields, because the pilots were afraid to hit their own men.

Jan


User currently offlineQuebecair727 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 328 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

Reply to MD11 engineer:

I took the picture on June 12th, 2005 at Omaha Beach. It was about 7PM when I took the picture of the old man sitting in front of the monument.

Of course, being from Canada, I went to Juno Beach as well. I also took few shots there including the following twos:




And the cemetery





It was the third time I was going to the beaches. Being to young for having seen the war myself, I can tell you though that being there is a very moving experience. The first time I went there was on June 6th, 1984, on the 40th anniversary of D-Day.


User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

If you thought that beach landing was bad, just read about the fight in the Pacific... D-Day was over-glamorized as the Allies in that region faced a small number of German divisions, most taken away to fight the Russians long ago.

User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
If you thought that beach landing was bad, just read about the fight in the Pacific... D-Day was over-glamorized as the Allies in that region faced a small number of German divisions, most taken away to fight the Russians long ago.

Go and visit Omaha beach. Look down from the prepared positions, scope out where the registered fields of fire were, and see where the shingle was compared to where the obstacles were and see what a small kill box all those men had to run through. The Omaha landing at Normandy was incredibly difficult and a damned close thing. Go and see all that and tell me that was "overglamorized".

What you seem to know about D-Day at Normandy is less than can be....I'll leave off the observations of your ignorance.....

The 716th was a static unit of category B and C reservists and impressed troops but the 352d was an experienced Division concentrated on that section of the beach that had Russian experience.

Over 59,000 men landed that day, with nearly 41% casualty ratio, losing 3,000 men KIA on the day of the landings on that one beach. Over 9,500 KIA for the Allies on all beaches....with nearly 1/3 coming from those two divisions on that one beach.

To call this "glamorized" is the height of arrogant ignorance.

[Edited 2005-07-06 04:23:39]


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
If you thought that beach landing was bad, just read about the fight in the Pacific... D-Day was over-glamorized as the Allies in that region faced a small number of German divisions, most taken away to fight the Russians long ago.

Ahh, the ignorance perpetuates itself . . . .


User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
D-Day was over-glamorized as the Allies in that region faced a small number of German divisions, most taken away to fight the Russians long ago.

What is this, a joke??Do you even know what are you talking about??Small number???They were a lot and armed like hell, with heavy machine gun fire all over the damn place.
I don't like to be rude, but sometimes it is just deserved.
please, kindly, before posting crap do some research, ask to an elder or so, or just plainly shut up.

Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

The Normandy landings were a gamble and during the first days very shaky. If Hitler e.g. would have let his generals use the armoured reserve freely instead of locking it at Calais, where he still expected the main invasion to come, it might have turned out as a major disaster for the Allies. Most units didn't capture their objectives on D-day. They were lucky that Rommel chose these days to travel home to Germany for his wife's birthday and wasn't around to lead the German response. Generaloberst Dollmann, commander of the 7th Army was away from his headquarters as well, attending a war game in Rennes and Sepp Dietrich, commander of the 1SS Panzer Corps was in Brussels.
When the first Allied troops landed early in the morning, Generalfieldmarshall von Rundstedt tried to get the permission from Hitler to bring Dietrich's divisions forward, but Hitler's aides didn't want to wake up the dictator , who liked to sleep in. The permission was only granted in the late afternoon. By then many bridges and railway lines required to move these divisions were destroyed by either Allied bombers or the French resistance.

Montgomery's master plan was to use the British and Canadian forces in the east to tie up as many German troops as possible, while the Americans would swing around in the west. In the end it worked, though it was a gamble.

Unfortunately the Normandy landing captured all the attention, detracting from other operations, like the Saleron and Anzio landings in Italy. The British parlamentarian Lady Astor made some nasty comments about the "lazy D-day dodgers enjoying Italy", leading to the famous song "We asre the D-day dodgers, way down in Italy...".

BTW, the Russians started a major offensive at the same time as the western Allieds landed in the Normandy.

Jan


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
In the end it worked, though it was a gamble.

Ironically the plan only worked because they brought Montys worst Allied enemy into the theatre.....Patton.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 22):
Montys worst Allied enemy into the theatre.....Patton

The difference between Patton and Montgomery is that there was no difference . . . both arrogant SOBs that were tactical geniuses, IMO.

As for Patton, the 1970 movie was okay, but a bit biased since the Senior Military Advisor was Omar Bradley . . . he and Patton never really got along either. Of course, Patton could run circles around Bradley and other field commander past and present (except perhaps Schwarzkopf maybe).

He turned the tables on the German Army after his landing on the continent after D-Day using German Blitzkreig tactics . . . until this present war in Iraq, no US military unit of that size (3rd US Army) had ever moved farther and faster and inflicted more damage . . . until of course, they ran themselves out of fuel.

I don't think the German High Command feared any other General and his abilities as much as they feared Patton . . .

His lack of tact and refusal to be a politician kept his ass in the Eisenhower meat grinder. Although, in hindsight and upon reflection, I think he was more often correct than not.

An excellent book to read on Patton: Patton, Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago

If anyone's every met George Patton III, you'll know that leadership is NOT genetic. He was the Commander, 2nd Armor Division at Ft. Hood in the early 1980s. Believe my, Like Father, Like Son, does NOT apply in this case.

[Edited 2005-07-06 14:54:32]

User currently offlineGreyhound From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1026 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting Quebecair727 (Reply 16):
The first time I went there was on June 6th, 1984, on the 40th anniversary of D-Day.

Which Beach? My Grandad, I believe, went on a tour with other veterans of the 29th Inf. Division over there for the anniversary... down to Omaha Beach... I at least know he went there in '88... he died after he came back to the states.

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
If you thought that beach landing was bad, just read about the fight in the Pacific... D-Day was over-glamorized as the Allies in that region faced a small number of German divisions, most taken away to fight the Russians long ago.

Ever heard of bloody Omaha? Read about the struggles to land on that beach... the Rangers who had to scale the cliffs near (someone correct me if I'm wrong) St. Lo.... I don't care if they faced 1 Panzer Division or 30.... One is bad enough. Pillboxes firing down on them, heavy artillery and machine gun fire everywhere, explosives and other obstacles on the beach (i.e. Belgian Gates).... sounds like a real picnic to me.



29th, Let's Go!
25 DL021 : WHo as you mentioned did not like Patton as a General other than his ability to fight, which, in the end, was all that mattered. Bradley admitted as
26 Garnetpalmetto : Which is precisely why his position as the "quaker cannon" in the run-up to D-Day worked out so well. The German High Command was certain that any in
27 GDB : While Monty, like most famous generals, was a prima donna, you might want to look up how many German divisions were facing Monty's forces, them compar
28 MD11Engineer : Rommel was back in the Normandy on June 7th to face his old adversary and took control of the troops around and south of Caen (Caen was supposed to be
29 Gman94 : I agree with GDB, it always amazes the attitude of some people when talking about the Normandy campaign in WWII. Omaha beach gets a lot of attention a
30 Post contains links and images Iakobos : The French site www.debarquement-normandie.com mentions that the locations of the 12PzSS and Pz Lehr as well as the AA Corps on the eve of D-Day were
31 MD11Engineer : Iakobos, You map shows the 3rd anti aircraft corps. This corps with their powerfull 88mm AA guns, which were also very effective as AT guns, played a
32 David L : Didn't Rommel want to use maximum force to prevent the Allies from getting ashore while von Rundstedt wanted to wait till they'd moved inland and atta
33 MD11Engineer : Yes, in Rommel's opinion the invasion would be decided on the beaches. This stems from his experience with the british and Americans in the Western De
34 B744F : It was nowhere near as bloody and difficult than the numerous landings in the Pacific. Iwo compared to Normandy? no comparison. And the small number
35 DL021 : "It was nowhere near as bloody and difficult than the numerous landings in the Pacific. Iwo compared to Normandy? no comparison. And the small number
36 B744F : I never said it was a cake walk or enjoyable, I just said it wasn't as tough as the Allies waging the Pacific war, they get none of the credit, while
37 Quebecair727 : I went to Sword. Didn't have the time to go to others as there was so many peoples. I also stop in Arromanche where the museum is (not the Mémorial
38 MD11Engineer : The landings were in so far important as they finally opened up the long demanded second front on the continent and this way releived pressure from th
39 Dtwclipper : I know about Burma! My father was there during the war (he's 84). Doesn't talk much about it, but I did get the story out of him. A part of the war t
40 Slider : Yup- and Patton predicted the Cold War before WWII was over. He foresaw the conflict with the Russians...didn't like them, didn't trust them and want
41 DL021 : "I never said it was a cake walk or enjoyable, I just said it wasn't as tough as the Allies waging the Pacific war, they get none of the credit, while
42 MD11Engineer : Ian, While Western material support (lend-lease) was critical up to 1943, due to most of Russia's industrial capacity having been badly affected by th
43 B744F : Thats completley ridiculous, you are glossing over history yourself. Pointing out that the battle at Normady was not as tough as the Battle at say, I
44 MD11Engineer : Actually the Arica campaign was ordered by Hitler to save Mussolini's neck. Northern Africa was the Italian sphere of influnece as agreed between Germ
45 Greyhound : You appear to be going off strictly numbers alone. Sounds like a deflection of criticism to me too.... Do you think taking Iwo Jima was as critical t
46 B744F : I just used Iwo as an exampe of one of the many bloody battles that gets no credit. The landing at Normandy pulled 9 whole German divisions away from
47 DL021 : The Normandy landings were the largest operation of the European war to that point, and they were the most important of the Western front, period. The
48 Allstarflyer : I have to agree with these 3, B744F. Your following comment is, at the least, reaching: This is a huge reason the Allies were able to continue the ad
49 MD11Engineer : I think in Europe and the Mediterranean there were several battles of the same magnitude: The Battle of Britain El Alamein, it marked the point from
50 DL021 : Jan....Stalingrad was very important, but on the Eastern Front. I specifically singled out the Western front. The operation that cut off Von Paulus in
51 MD11Engineer : Ian, Bill Mauldin ( who was with the US Army in Italy) drew a very nice cartoon: It shows the two scruffy GIs Willie and Joe sitting in a foxhole some
52 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : I agree (and forgot about El Alamein - and then Ian turned around and beat me to the punch about the Battle of Britain) that there are several that c
53 MD11Engineer : Preliminary you could even call Operation Dynamo-Dunkirk the first big loss of the Germans. The 300,000 British soldiers, who managed to escape (thoug
54 Allstarflyer : Ah, Dunkirk - why Hitler let the British escape is one of those unsolved war mysteries. My dad has a series of videos about some of the mysteries of
55 WhiteHatter : Simple. Hitler WANTED the British troops to return to their bases demoralised and defeated, and for that to spread to the entire British armed forces
56 MD11Engineer : I don't think so. It would have served Hitler better if he would have taken those 300,000 men as POWs. No, he got scared of the progress of his troop
57 L-188 : Boy some Military History major could really do a great term paper comparing the supply issues on the drive into France, with the supply issues that
58 DL021 : "Ah, Dunkirk - why Hitler let the British escape is one of those unsolved war mysteries." I don't really believe that the Germans thought that the BEF
59 MD11Engineer : Don't forget Operation PLUTO, the undersea pipelines, which pumped fuel from England into the bridgeheads in the Normandy! Jan
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