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London: What If It Wasn't 'Islamists'?  
User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 594 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Everyone, myself included, has been so quick to jump on the Al Qaeda bandwagon, but is it possible that we have all jumped the gun and blamed the bombings in London on the wrong people? After all, it's been done before, remember Oklahoma City? Why has no-one looked at one of the obvious possible perpetrators -- the Real IRA or other hardcore Irish Republican groups?

Look at some of the info available

* The IRA has a long long history of bomb attacks in London. After the Provisional IRA signed peace accords, the Real IRA splintered and continued their armed campaign.
* The group claiming responsibility for the bombings are an as yet unknown group. An unknown group is usually an indication of a hoax?
* Attacking the transport network isn't out of the realm of possibility of the RIRA considering they were behind the Omagh bombings, and several other bombings in London.
* The Real IRA says they don't target civilians, but Omagh proved this is false. As do some of their other attacks
* The fact there was no warning doesn't necessarily indicate "Al Qaeda". With the Omagh bombings there was a warning, but it deliberately warned about the wrong place, causing authorities to move people towards the real bombsite.
* There are reports that the bus bomb was accidental. The bomber was transporting it elsewhere when it accidentally detonated. Flashback to 1996. An IRA bomber on a double-decker had his bomb accidentally go off with a few injuries.
* Irish Republican groups have access to all types of weapons -- bombs included -- and have not held back in using them.

Yes, it is true that the RIRA has lost a lot of it's importance -- it's leader was imprisoned, and there has been success in infiltrating their ranks -- but who knows if there has been a further splintering of the group into even more hard-core Republicans intent on further violence.

Such groups have the 'reason', the will, the means, and maybe more importantly, the history of attacks, to have been responsible for the bombings in London, but it seems we are all intent on only pursuing the Al Qaeda angle.

Sure, I might be completely wrong. But until hard evidence is available, I could also be right.

And as a sidenote -- if it wasn't Al Qaeda, or another "Islamic" organisation, which was responsible, I wonder if we would all be quick to apologise to the Muslim word, as we were to judge and condemn it.

[Edited 2005-07-08 01:40:42]

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Let's just say I raised "another possibility" and it was met with a basically justified deletion. Now is not the time to sepculate exactly who did it, just lick our wounds and hold eachother tight, and be thankful we made it through another day on this crappy rock.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

Uhhh.... an Al Qaeda faction took credit for it....


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

It follows the similar pattern that Islamic terrorist attacks have taken. Busses, train stations, etc where there are massive amounts of people, not really paying attention to their surroundings, headed to work. Plus, organizing coordinated, covert attacks seem to be the expertise per se of Islamic Fundamentalist terror organizations.

User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

I don`t personally care if they are "islamists`"(sic from the original post) or not. But they deserve to pay, whoever they are, in the full extension of the law, for what they did.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

I was living in Ireland when the Omagh bombing happened. AFAIK, the RIRA members, who were known to the PIRA (being ex PIRA members) received a housecall from the PIRA, threatening them with a permanent resting place with the fishes in the Northern Atlantic if they wouldn't disband their group pronto.

Jan


User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2189 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

I think is safe always to have an open mind toward this kind of crimes, I remember the Oklahoma bombing, finally it was an american who did it, same with the 3/11 on Madrid, they jumped early on on the ETA bandwagon to be found later it was not the case....

I am So happy our president FOX did not endorse the Iraq invasion, because id be pissing on my pants right now, one of the things I have noticed is the convenience of the "date" just for the G8 meeting, if someone gained from the disruption from the Meeting are bankers and very very powerful people who did not want to see any change in the status quo of the world today...

I really hope I am wrong and this has been perpetrated by Al qaeda, because those can be found and brought to justice, the bankers..mmmm NOT.

My condolences to the people of the United Kingdom
TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13509 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1729 times:
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Quoting Soyuzavia (Thread starter):
Why has no-one looked at one of the obvious possible perpetrators -- the Real IRA or other hardcore Irish Republican groups?

Because it has been a VERY long time since the IRA has been blowing things up in Britain (and even then, they mostly did their business outside of England itself), they've been unprovoked, the fact that these attacks fit the profile and are consistent with an al Qaeda operation, and that an al Qaeda faction in Europe has in fact claimed responsibility.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineTheCoz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting Soyuzavia (Thread starter):
Everyone, myself included, has been so quick to jump on the Al Qaida bandwagon, but is it possible that we have all jumped the gun and blamed the bombings in London on the wrong people?

It could also have been a bunch of meteors for all I know. I suppose it all depends on how illogical you decide to get.

I guess it all boils down to this: Why would an unrelated terror group decide to emulate the terror methodology of Al Qaida? It doesn't make sense to me for an unrelated terror group to use another's tactics when they're well practiced in their own.


User currently offlineZeekiel From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

I'm beginning to wonder about the label "Al-Qaida".

Al-Qaida has become more of a brand name like McDonalds, Starbucks or Boeing. Terrorist groups that are small in size use the umbrella of Al-Qaida to carry out attacks. Whether there are conclusive financial and physical links between Osama Bin Laden and these smaller groups is remained to be proven or non-existent.

Cheers

Zeekiel

[Edited 2005-07-08 04:15:52]

User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Maybe they sould call themselves, "Al-Qaida Inc." or "Al-Qaidasoft" for those computer viruses that are so pesky.

UAL


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13032 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

While 'al-Quada' is not what it was, there had been growing numbers of small, semi-independent cells of terrorists whom share some of the reasonings and methods of al-Quada as to attacking the western, Christian world. I think some mosques in the UK known to be supportive or preaching about terror against the 'west' may be subject to intense investigations by the police, MI-5 and others to hopefully remove foreigners whom support such terror or ship them off to Saudia Arabia to face 'Islamic' justice.

User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

We did it because you took the Olympics from us.

Signed,

The French 

In seriousness it was definitely a Islamic group because the attacks basically mirrored the Madrid bombings and I believe that the terrorists think that it will get the UK out of Iraq.

[Edited 2005-07-08 04:43:24]


Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

It doesn't matter who did it as long as they are exterminated for doing it.

User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1615 times:
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It wouldn't matter who it was, terrorism is terrorism, whether it be Militant Islamists or the IRA. They committed a cowardly act of violence. The 45 victims and counting, and 700 wounded would be no-less sad if it were done by any other terrorist organisation.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
It doesn't matter who did it as long as they are exterminated for doing it.

Exactly. In the end, it doesn't matter from where they hail or what cause they seek to advance, as long as they meet justice swiftly and efficiently.

-R


User currently offlineKieron747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1612 times:

As I understand things, the IRA usually gave coded warnings. Where there any warnings against today's attack?

And also, apart from a few examples, the IRA's targets were always political, not generally civillian.

It is a very sorry day for the UK. A country that is so rich in cultural diversity, I fear that the right wing extremists in the UK are going to have a field day hassling anyone in England who isn't white, anyone who wears a headscarf, anyone who is a peaceful Briton yet dresses differently according to their religion.

There will be several political repercussions to this. I just hope no more innocent British folk get hurt... or discriminated against.

Kieron747


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

This has all the signatures of Al Qaeda or one of their affiliated groups. Other terrorist groups like the IRA usually call in warning before the bombs go boom. The Islamic terrorists do not. Also, this is almost a play for play repeat of what happened in Spain. Blow up some trains (and a bus this time) and hope the country runs home and hides under their beds. The Spanish decided to run away and cower, I believe (and hope) the British will show the terrorists that they do not run in the face of threats.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Quoting B757300 (Reply 17):
The Spanish decided to run away and cower

They threw out a lying, cheating PM - and they would still have re-elected him if he hadn´t been caught re-handed.

Yeah, reality sucks sometimes. But it still beats delusion every time.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21512 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

It was most likely an Islamic group, but even though they have "al-Qaeda" in the name, it doesn't mean that they have any affiliation with al-Qaeda.

Many terrorist groups draw inspiration from al-Qaeda, and claim to be acting on their behalf. I'm sure nobody in al-Qaeda is shedding a tear over the attacks, but there's no proof that they were at all connected.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

I will be shocked if it wasn't someone from the "religion of peace" carrying out the attack. There are extremely few Christian sects or cults that advocate suicide missions, which is apparently what happened on the double-decker.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineKieron747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 20):
which is apparently what happened on the double-decker.

Is it confirmed then that it was a suicide bomber?

Kieron747


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1528 times:

Quoting Kieron747 (Reply 21):
Is it confirmed then that it was a suicide bomber?

I wish I had an answer to that but I saw a credible news-source's report that it was a suicide bomber in the case of the bus. I can't find the link, but I'd think it would be a highly legitimate explanation.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):
Uhhh.... an Al Qaeda faction took credit for it....

Correct. But no-one in the intelligence community has ever heard of this 'faction' before. No-one knows if this group even exists, and it was merely a hoax. It's been reported that shortly after this 'faction' took credit, the website on which it was posted closed down. Why? They have never been reported in the past to close down after bombings which have been attributed to Al Qaeda. This seems unusual to me. Furthermore, it's been reported that the grammar in the 'admission' is quite poor, and there was no reference to any Koranic verses -- both things which are supposed to be unlike Al Qaeda. So one has to doubt that 'admission'.

Quoting TheCoz (Reply 8):
Why would an unrelated terror group decide to emulate the terror methodology of Al Qaida?

But this is the thing. Al-Qaeda doesn't hold a patent or trademark on terrorism. Who can say if an Irish Republican group has decided to move forward from single bombings, to multiple bombings. In fact, there have been instances of the IRA planting multiple bombs at different locations in the past in London.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):
Because it has been a VERY long time since the IRA has been blowing things up in Britain (and even then, they mostly did their business outside of England itself),

The last major RIRA bombing was a few years ago (2001). But most of their, and the IRA's, most 'prestigious' campaigns were in London itself.

Quoting Kieron747 (Reply 16):
As I understand things, the IRA usually gave coded warnings. Where there any warnings against today's attack?

Sometimes there were, sometimes there weren't.

Quoting Kieron747 (Reply 16):
And also, apart from a few examples, the IRA's targets were always political, not generally civillian

Not quite true. Guildford Pub, Harrods, Canary Wharf, shopping centres, etc. One could even say that the London transport system is a 'political' target?

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 22):
I wish I had an answer to that but I saw a credible news-source's report that it was a suicide bomber in the case of the bus.

There's only one way the credible news source could know for sure. They either were responsible, or they know for certain who was responsible and knew before the event what was gonna happen. So I would have a problem with that. The other thing I'd have a problem with is the so-called experts from who the media generally gets their information -- these so-called experts were responsible for naming Islamic fundys in Oklahoma City, and some also claimed ETA was responsible in Spain. How wrong were they then?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
AFAIK, the RIRA members, who were known to the PIRA (being ex PIRA members) received a housecall from the PIRA, threatening them with a permanent resting place with the fishes in the Northern Atlantic if they wouldn't disband their group pronto.

Correct. The 'top brass' of RIRA did call for the group's disbanding. But weren't there still smaller acts of violence in Northern Ireland last year which were attributed to the RIRA? And we're talking Irish Republicans here -- there is always going to be supporters of the cause who are unwilling to give up their 'fight'. One group shuts down or agrees to a cease fire, and another group rushes in to take their place.

I'm not making judgement calls myself, nor trying to deflect from one group or another, but in my mind, you hear of terrorism in London, I think of something different as history shows us. Of course I could be wrong, but not so quite to jump on that bandwagon, which even Blair and other UK ministers aren't jumping on at the moment.

What happened was a horrible thing, but I for one want to see blame being put on the right people, not premature conjecture and accusations as is always the case.

And the last question of my first post. If it is shown it wasn't Al Qaeda, but an Irish Republican (or other) group responsible, who would apologise to the Muslim world for the false accusations? One UK member has been banned for basically saying he encourages retributions against the general Muslim population -- flashbacks to Oklahoma City in which retribution was dished out to Muslims and other "Asians", before it became known it was a white fundy who was responsible.

[Edited 2005-07-08 12:25:28]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12382 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1438 times:
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Latest news on the bus bomb here is that police suspect either a suicide bomber or a bomb carrier who had the misfortune (sarcastic) to be blown up by his own bomb.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
25 Post contains links Soyuzavia : So basically, it's a flashback to the 1996 incident? Having a look here, http://www.externalserver.me.uk:8085/Terrorists.htm it is interesting to see
26 Travelin man : Sorry Soyuzavia. I think you are really reaching to say it is an IRA attack, when these unwarned coordinated bombings of civilian targets carry few ha
27 Soyuzavia : Nothing against you Travelin man, or anyone else on these forums. But can we stop using the word 'hallmark'. It's use shits me. Let me tell you why.
28 Jacobin777 : and they have taken "credit" for other things which they have not done..only to "make a name" for themselves and may I ask why "Islamic" was highligh
29 LY7E7 : London: What If It Wasn't 'Islamists'? Martians. It must them.
30 GDB : Actually having the 'Hallmarks' of previous attacks does have resonance, but not only in the general M.O. Type of explosives, type of detonators etc.
31 JamesAg96 : That is a tired and obviously untrue statement. Then I invite the rest of your 1.2 billion Muslims to collectively and LOUDLY denounce terrorism and
32 NYCFlyer : So bankers cause more harm than al Qaeda? What a dumbass statement, to say nothing of offensive.
33 Post contains images Lehpron : So, the few spoil it for the many. Do you think the entire Catholic faith should be reformed because of a few priests with lil'boys? If you are going
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