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Family Of London Bomber "Devastated"  
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1711 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4687897.stm

Poor sods. Another set of victims.


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

The boy knows how to make his family proud. He's in Gre'thor now saying, "Oh shit!"

Mark

[Edited 2005-07-15 22:31:07]

User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting Banco (Thread starter):
Another set of victims.

Very true. All too often the forgotten victims are the unwitting family members of the people who commit such acts. Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Quoting Banco (Thread starter):
Another set of victims

- yes, plus that unbelievable Bangladeshi beauty ! What a definite shame that such a girl had to perish !

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 2):
the forgotten victims are the unwitting family members of the people who commit such acts. Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices

�
- they are hit twice. They not only lost a family member, they also have to live with his final action


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 2):
Worse yet, often they are blamed or viewed as accomplices.

and often, they are. What's your point?


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1592 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
often, they are

-
No, usually they are NOT. In extreme cases, their fathers even are/were anti-terrorist law-enforcers, investigators or state attorneys. And in this case, it looks as if the families were hit by surprise. Like the mother who in the evening, after having seen the 9PM-news of BBC-I got concerned about her son who in the morning had gone to London and had not yet returned. So that she feared that something might have happened to him.


User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1581 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
and often, they are. What's your point?

Freddie, you're smarter than this (I hope). If they are accomplices, then so be it. But, MY POINT IS, how many times have offspring gone off the deep end, and family members have no idea, especially after they've turned 18 and have moved out of the house and have serious external influences. Seriously, you've got to cut the Prozac's in half, Freddie. You sound like a radio talk show host who's ingested a few too many.

For a smart guy, and you are, IMO, you say way too many stupid things.

[Edited 2005-07-16 02:34:59]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14129 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1564 times:

I have often seen teenagers going exactly the opposite way of their parents and become quite extreme. In most cases they return to mainstream in their mid twenties, early thirties though.

I can give some examples:
My secondary school was quite leftwing, with many teachers being socialists or greens, same as the parents of many of my class mates. But several kids, actually joined Neo-Nazi groups, partly to piss off their parents and teachers and partly because several of our "tolerant left wing hippy teachers" were authoritarian hypocrites in their own way.

For myself, my parents were rather conservative, but during secondary school and university I became a quite radical anarchist. Today I have mellowed andsupport the traditional working class social democrats (not the tree hugger academic fraction!).

So maybe these guys joined the ultra religious fanatics to piss off their parents, whom they considered Pakistani "Uncle Toms" in their effort to integrate into British society. The same is happening with quite a few young Turks in Germany.

Jan


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1560 times:

Often the youth do rebel against the ideals of their parents simply as a way to distinguish themselves and carve out their own identities.

I will also add that parents are enablers if not active accomplices when they send their children, not yet adults in judgement development or experience, off with enough money and support to live and become educated, but without enough supervision to keep them from going off in the wrong direction.

The same happens here when students go off to college and are led into rebellious behaviour, or worse into the wrong crowds (to take it to extremes into cults for example) but the situation for many young people of central and western Asian extraction who were raised as Muslims is more dangerous with some seriously nutty people leading them down a very violent and dangerous path at a time when they are most vulnerable to this. The "Islamic Schools" that we keep hearing about actively seek out these young people and work on them harder than a Scientologist on Tom Cruises latest convert. It's dangerous and I think that we should work on a solution to this problem.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1551 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
I will also add that parents are enablers if not active accomplices when they send their children, not yet adults in judgement development or experience, off with enough money and support to live and become educated, but without enough supervision to keep them from going off in the wrong direction.

So basically if it were up to you, your kids would have a babysitter until they're 30. Isn't growing up all about making choices on your own and learning from your mistakes? If you think being supervised would somehow create perfectly civilized kids I think you are extremely mistaken


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14129 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1549 times:

Ian,

You have a point.
The parents of these terrorists are probably hardworking working class people, who came to Britain to improve themselves. Probably not too well educated themselves, they were working lots of hours to fullfill the immigrant's dream, to get your kids the best education possible, so that they would get better jobs than their parents. Now, since the parentswere working their butts off, they probably were not really watching what their boys were doing, maybe theyalso supported the idea that their children would turn towards religion, it being better than them going for drugs or petty crime.
Now the boys probably didn't tell their parents everything they were doing. They probably also received orders from their leaders not to speak about what was going on to anybody outside. For the parents they probably went to the Muslim equivalent of the YMCA, but in reality they got brainwashed to sacrifice themselves "for their God". They must have been brainwashed, because a normal young man at this age thinks mainly of two things:
a) To getb his first steps into a professional career right
and b) to find a nice woman.

Maybe we really should treat these fanatical groups similar to cults like the Moonies, Scientolgists, those nutters in Waco, Texas or those who comitted mass suicide in Central American in the 1970s.

There are several striking similarities:
They always have some charismatic leader.
Usually the male cult members have to be sexually abstinent.
They get told that everybody outside the cult is the enemy, including their families and not to be trusted.
They get told that their life is nothing and the cult, the cause and the leader is everything.
Only what their leader says is right, including his interpretation of the Bible or the Q'ran.
They are not accessible to reason.

Maybe one should approach at least the normal members of these groups with the deprogramming techniques developed e.g. to get Moonies back into society.

Jan


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

One problem stated for Muslim youth in concentrated areas, mostly in the Northern English cities, is that while at home, and on trips back to say Pakistan for example, they are brought up in a very male dominated environment.
Taught that as being born male, they have the careers, they have the final say in family life too.

But they are growing up in the UK, the outside world is just not like that.
School is not, where girls in more recent years have outperformed boys, while they also suffer from higher levels of unemployment, but in a job, they may have equal female colleagues and female bosses.

They are also expected to abstain from a lot of normal experiences and pleasures of teenagers/young men, in a country with a reputation for hedonistic behavior, greater than say in Europe generally.

Small wonder there is much talk of a big disconnect between generations, bigger than in other groups anyway.
I totally believe that the families of the London Bombers had no idea of what they were planning.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 6):
For a smart guy, and you are, IMO, you say way too many stupid things.

chill champ

I didnt say they always are, i just said often


User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2881 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

"She was an Eastender, a Londoner and British, but above all, a true Muslim and proud to be so."


Indeed, these are the real muslims, not the ones who seem to have read the koran upside down (or however they read it in order to get such a twisted view of it). It just shows what a load of crap those neanderthals are shoveling out of their mouths when they try to say that it is we (basically everyone else except them) that are against true muslims and hence need to die. Instead they themselves kill muslims without thinking twice about it. Hipocrisy at it's finest...


Can you people imagine if a large gathering (i do mean large) of muslims around the world would gather up and do a press release or video for these twats where they said that hey: "What are you doing, you are trying to tell us that you fight in the true spirit of islam and that you fight for us but yet you are killing us and our children. What on earth are you doing?"

I for one would love to see the reaction to that as these cowards are always quick to say that "we" are against the muslims and that they fight for islam and that a true muslim should devote himself to martyrdom etc. It would be nice to hear someone from their own family (in the way that they share the same orginal religion even though the fundamentalists have a twisted view of it) tell them that they are doing something very very wrong.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

I still believe that these events will have a profound positive effect on the UK, in terms of relations with the Muslim population. The sense of shock and horror is palpable, and I've no doubt they will be pulling up trees to find and identify extremists. Maybe they could have done more in the past, maybe not, but let's deal with the present and the future.

I can't even begin to imagine what this family is going through. It must be absolutely desperate for them. I hope they can find peace.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1474 times:

But there is another problem, all too often in the past week or so, young British Muslims have been quoted (and not by the tabloids) as saying stuff when interviewed like;
"Blair probably did it, he hates us and wants us out"
"MI-5 probably did it"
Watching a robot device examine a suspect house in Leeds for explosives, "If they find nothing they'll get some out of their back pocket".

These might be a particularly ignorant, hot-headed and frankly idiot small minority, but they exist.
All this talk of our 'brothers' in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan etc?
'Brothers?' Not the same country, not the same culture really, not even mostly the same language.
Other decendants of immigrants simply do not see themselves that way, or to nowhere near the same extent.

They also clearly no idea, or choose to ignore, that most of their 'brothers and sisters' have been killed by other Muslims, (factional killing in Pakistan, Afghanistan-how many Afghans did the Taliban kill when in power? Iraq under Saddam, the Iran-Iraq war, invasion of Kuwait, those kids killed in Iraq this week, by another Muslim in the shape of a suicide bomber, in fact most Iraqi civilians have died like this, in Sudan as well recently).

This is not the same as doing, or turning a blind eye to, suicide bombings or any terrorism in this country, but it's from where the tiny minority that might do so spring from.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1452 times:

Here in the States we have similar situations in Boston and other places where American descendents of Irish immigrants decided that they had to support their brothers in Northern Ireland with lawyers, guns and money (homage to Warren).

Jan is correct in expanding on the cult ideology, as this is very similar to what we see in the fanatics schools.

But, since several of us see the problem, and its roots (even if the one member asks about babysitting until 30, which evidently only he needs) the rest of us perhaps should ask what can be done about this situation.

The reality is that support worldwide seems to be dropping for suicide/homicide bombings and thats a good thing. Reality and logic seem to be taking hold. The problem here is what another poster mentioned. It only takes a few fanatics to terrorise the rest of the world. They do need support in order to act on a grand scale, but they can always get 5 guys to make chickenshit bombs and rent trucks to different cities. How do we stop this? What kind of effort can be made to deal with this?

The first thing I can think of is that we as a society must not ever submit to any demands made by a terrorist. By denying success to them and always giving them a negative reaction we will eliminate the motivation they have to execute these acts. If they feel like they can get what they want that will encourage more acts.

I still don't have a good answer for the true fanatics who want to destroy simply to return us to the dark ages. We'll still have to find those bastards. But if we cull the thieves and power grabbers we'll have an easier time finding the fanatics.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
said often

-
while I of course did NOT say "never" but usually NOT which means a majority do/did NOT
-
THAT of course is the reason why ScotlandYard and MI-6 are looking into every member of these families quite individually. The question the policemen of course ask themselves always is something in the line of "ok, the father and the mother did NOT know anything, and the brother to all appearance neither, but what about sisters, cousins, uncles, friends, teachers etc .
-
Back to your statement. YOUR "often" sounded like "most of them" "a majority of them" and that simply is WRONG


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

its nice to see the Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom speaking out...

"Britain's top Muslims have branded the London suicide bombings "utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic

A joint statement of condemnation came as 22 leaders and scholars met at the Islamic Cultural Centre, in London.

But Britain's highest ranking Asian police officer, Tarique Ghaffur, says Muslims and their leaders must do more than just condemn the bombings.

Bomber Hasib Mir Hussain's family said on Friday they were "devastated". "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4684885.stm



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
must do more than just condemn the bombings


-
while in reality, people like him must do more than just rethorics. Muslims in Europe for years have given relevant information to police in general and to "ethnic" policemen in particular about things amiss, about bookshops selling extremist stuff etc, but were NOT taken seriously. Police in London for instance must have seen the "Islamic Academy" south of Hyde Park and how those folks addressed casual passers-by to "join" their discussions, they must have seen those bookshops in Charing Cross Road displaying and selling (even in the shop-windows) extremist "literature" and they had all the "threads" in their hands to take the necessary conclusions. Before demanding "action" from others, they simply should do their homework for which they are paid for.


User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
I didnt say they always are, i just said often

Actually, no they are not.

Because of the way in which the terror networks like Al Qaeda work, each operative is compartmentalised to stop captured terrorists being able to name too many of his or her accomplices. Families are kept in the dark, all the operative needs to know are the names of the two people below or to the side of them and their single upline in the pyramid.

Family involvement is discouraged as being a weak link. A despairing family member could easily bring an operation to its knees so they are trained to act strictly within the one-up-two-down framework.

It's a tried and tested method adapted from the French and other resistances of the Second World War.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

From the article:
"There should be a clear distinction between the suicide bombing of those who are trying to defend themselves from occupiers, which is something different from those who kill civilians, which is a big crime," said the head of the World Islamic League Sayed Mohammed Musawi.

So suicide bombings are ok in Israel and Iraq....Right?


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
So suicide bombings are ok in Israel and Iraq....Right?

THAT of course is THE big question. Occupiers you have both in Iraq and in Palestine, but is it justified to kill whomever is around an icecream shop in Tel Aviv, is it justified to kill an unknown number of people in downtown Baghdad ? YOU of course strictly say that it is NOT. But please look up under the literature about the French "Resistance" in WW-II and you will see that they very very very often risked the lives of innocent civilians of THEIR OWN side in the framework of actions against the Nazi occupiers.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1388 times:

THAT of course is THE big question. Occupiers you have both in Iraq and in Palestine, but is it justified to kill whomever is around an icecream shop in Tel Aviv, is it justified to kill an unknown number of people in downtown Baghdad ? YOU of course strictly say that it is NOT. But please look up under the literature about the French "Resistance" in WW-II and you will see that they very very very often risked the lives of innocent civilians of THEIR OWN side in the framework of actions against the Nazi occupiers.

And this is the problem that Europe faces...A hostile Muslim population that ACTUALLY has to question whether suicide bombings are ever justified, as you just did...And since when is Tel Aviv "occupied" territory?


User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1381 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 20):
the French and other resistances of the Second World War.

Oxymorons for $1,000 please, Alex.


25 Post contains images Klaus : "Most americans´ knowledge about history." How about that?
26 DL021 : Insulting the average Americans knowledge of history does not change the fact that we still pretty much run things. Why do you feel the necessity to t
27 Saintsman : I found it quite refreshing for the family to publicly state how devistated they are. Compare that to many of the Palistinian families who seem quite
28 Klaus : Please look at the very specific context of my post. Without the kind of offensive crap Logan posted above there´s no need to respond.
29 777236ER : The fundamental problem is that, frankly, a lot of Muslim kids (as GDB said) feel some sort of affinity with their 'brothers' who they feel are being
30 Post contains images Soyuzavia : This is absolutely correct. So how's that whole Iraqi situation you are running going? Why? The leaders of the Muslim world, always do condemn attack
31 DL021 : Klaus....ok then..hit back at him if you disagree with him. I might make some jokes and asides about Germans or Belgians or the French, but I won't ma
32 777236ER : Let's just clarify, it's better than killing civilians in that it's soldiers killing soldiers. But it's still not OK.
33 DL021 : It's ok for Russophi....I mean Soyuzavia. The point of the thread...to get back on track...is that the people in the communities from whence these ter
34 777236ER : I'm sorry Russophile Soyuzavia, but the point you're trying to make is a pretty obscure one. Leaders in the Muslim world do condone terrorism, but th
35 Soyuzavia : Let me clarify. In the real world wars can and will occur. It's not a good thing, but something one has to expect. If my country was to be invaded by
36 777236ER : I don't deny that. In fact, I didn't deny it. But it's still not OK.
37 L410Turbolet : Russo, I am sure that many still remeber what it's like to be invaded by your country.
38 Klaus : Christianity has been turned into a (just mostly!) peaceful religion only because secularization kicked it out of the driver seat. It was by no means
39 RJpieces : Depends on the situation. Let's stick to Iraq here. If it were Iraqis themselves who were fighting against and bombing US/UK/Aussie/Other military for
40 Jaysit : I guess you haven't heard some of the rants by our local American Christian "Mullahs," have you? Still, noxious as our Fundie Ministers may be, advoc
41 ME AVN FAN : - simple answer, it is NOT "occupied territory". It is the metropolis of the occupationers .
42 ME AVN FAN : # don't exaggerate. there is NOT "a hostile Muslim population" anywhere in Europe. There may be some extreme persons and groups, but NOT THE populati
43 NYCFlyer : Soyuzavia, are you actually condoning the Iraqi insurgency against U.S. troops? I really hope I misunderstood you. Don't you realize that the whole p
44 Post contains images Soyuzavia : Who said I justified it? Nice try at putting words in my mouth, not. No I am not. I said quite clearly, if it was Iraqis bombing ANY foreign troops i
45 777236ER : So you agree that the suicide bombings in London were abhorrant?
46 Post contains images Soyuzavia : No I think they were fucking fantastic and the best thing since sliced bread. What do you think?
47 RJpieces : No I think they were fucking fantastic and the best thing since sliced bread. What do you think? So suicide bombings in Iraq are ok, London are bad..H
48 Post contains images L410Turbolet : therefore I assume it's OK, at least according to you and the double standards of these "scholars". There's is always some relativist "but"... If thi
49 RJpieces : simple answer, it is NOT "occupied territory". It is the metropolis of the occupationers . HAHA. I have to say, that is one of the funnier answers I'v
50 ME AVN FAN : -> no, to ME it is NOT ok as I am strictly against such self-sacrifice-attacks -> just as the West, who did NOT care much when Algeria was in deep sh
51 ME AVN FAN : -> I fail to see a "funny" aspect
52 Post contains images NYCFlyer : Your comments are sickening. The U.S. has spent tens of billions of dollars building the political process, giving Iraqis their first free elections
53 ME AVN FAN : -> by use of army, police and secret service
54 Tbar220 : And there's the problem! How can these parents not know that their own son was involved in something like this? How do they not know that their son h
55 ME AVN FAN : -> they actually DID --- until he fell under some particular influence and they did NOT realize it -> no, it just is similar to people who only reali
56 Tbar220 : Well then they didn't raise their son properly. Why would he go blow himself up to kill other people? Sure sounds like they fucked up somewhere. They
57 MD11Engineer : Tbar, you obviously don't know how conspirative cells work: It is a system which has been proven in various resistance organisations. Everybody knows
58 ME AVN FAN : - They DID raise their son properly. Why he did it ? Because those who had become most influential on him told him that this was the right thing to d
59 Soyuzavia : What can I say? I don't have my tongue stuck up the proverbial American arsecrack, and don't believe the US Government propaganda machine. Free elect
60 Post contains links Jaysit : You need to grow up a bit. And while you're growing up, here is a wonderful little film you may be interested in seeing. Anyone see Hanif Kureishi's
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