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Rafeal Palmiero, Part II: HOF-Yea Or Nay?  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1158 times:

Ok, I think it was last year, I posed that question to baseball fans. After the guy hit his 500th career HR, the debate began if he should make the HOF or not. I said yes. A lot of people said no.

Ok, skip forward a year. Now, he's one of only 4 mean to have 500+ HR's and over 3000 hits. Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

What say you, Anet baseball fans? Can you REALLY keep a guy out of the HOF who joins Henry Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray in the most elite of hitting company?

I say you can't. He deserves to be in the Hall. Put him in there 5 years after he hangs 'em up.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGreyhound From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1026 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1150 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

Why, because he doesn't hit 50+ home runs every year and because he's more on the quiet and unassuming side? What a bunch of morons. Who the !#$^& is Skip Bayless in the grand scheme of things. The surprising thing about Palmeiro is he's been pretty quiet this whole time as he's been building up the hits and home runs. Honestly, he was never really elevated to the position other 'stars' have. Big Mac breaks the HR record, then Bonds, and all the while Palmeiro is building up the numbers.

I think he belongs in the hall. How can you NOT reward someone for hitting that many home runs, AND getting that many hits? Did he take steroids while doing it? I don't know. I, like the so called 'experts' like Bayless can only speculate. I think he's a good one for the hall.



29th, Let's Go!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21691 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1143 times:

Definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame. 500 HRs and 3000 hits speaks for itself. Plus, he's not the "all-me, only-me" kind of person that Bonds is, just a quiet guy who quietly puts up huge numbers.

I'd like to hear why Bayless doesn't think he belongs in the Hall.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1143 times:

Without a doubt. He's a fairly quiet guy, and toiled away in somewhat obscurity for a long time with the Cubs and the Rangers. I was actually surprised to see his recent hit and HR totals.

First-ballot shoo-in.


User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1140 times:

First ballot.

How can you keep the guy out with these numbers?

As usual, the four letter network tries to impart their opinion on everyone.



This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1140 times:

Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman? I much prefer Woody Paige to Skip Bayless.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineGreyhound From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1026 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman?

Yet another good point made as to how he's been silently making himself one of the best. Definitely flew in under the radar.



29th, Let's Go!
User currently offlineLogan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman

Yeah, he's so good that he even won a gold glove at first base a couple of years ago when he was a DH.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1127 times:

Let's put it this way. If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1127 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
Anyone forget that he is also a spectacular defensive first baseman?

Actually, that's one of the rubs. He really hasn't played a lot of first base for a long time now. And a few people can't forgive him-even though it wasn't his fault-when, a few years ago, he played a grand total of like 40 games at 1B one year, and the numbnuts who give out the Gold Glove Award gave him one for the position. Again, wasn't his fault, but some people point to that and hold a grudge.

He's a DH now. So what? Is that why he can't get in, in the minds of some? Or, like Romie said the other day, because he's never carried a team on his back; has never been one to strike mortal fear into a ballclub? Fact is, Palmiero hasn't played on all that many good teams, which also isn't his fault.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1125 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
Let's put it this way. If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?

I plan to apply that logic to a certain Shortstop in a few years.  Big grin


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1123 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
has never been one to strike mortal fear into a ballclub?

I don't know about you, but every time the O's played the Angels, I always was frightened to see him come up to bat.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
He's a DH now. So what?

He did play 1B every day for most of his career

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Is that why he can't get in, in the minds of some?

Some stupid people. I am sure none of them would exclude the great Eddie Murray from the Hall simply because he closed out as a DH



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1122 times:

Solid play and quiet professionalism leading to top tier numbers.

That ought to get him in.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineHomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2245 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1118 times:

Quoting Greyhound (Reply 1):
Did he take steroids while doing it?

Probably not, but he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...  Wink



"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 13):
Probably not, but he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...

Yeah, he is no roid head, but it seems his wife sure likes the little blue pill



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
I plan to apply that logic to a certain Shortstop in a few years.

You'll still be hoping for Mario Mendoza, eh   ?

Raffy goes in on his first eligible ballot. It's difficult to argue against 500/3,000. And most of those stats were put up for middle-of-the-road teams.

Tom at MSY

PS: btw, first ballot for Omar, as well.

[Edited 2005-07-21 19:08:47]


"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2048 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1090 times:

Yeah, he should be in. Classy guy. Really nailed Cancesco at the steroid hearings. Sweetest swing ever...so effortless.


II Cor. 4:17-18
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1088 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Now, he's one of only 4 mean to have 500+ HR's and over 3000 hits. Even then, some people, like Sacramento Bee and ESPN columnist Skip Bayless (I hate that guy), says he doesn't belong in the hall.

I'll get to Skip in a moment (and I don't like him much, myself).

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 3):
Without a doubt. He's a fairly quiet guy, and toiled away in somewhat obscurity for a long time with the Cubs and the Rangers. I was actually surprised to see his recent hit and HR totals.

Skip Bayless (after Bernie Lincicome) was the lead writer in the Sports section of the Chicago Tribune for a while - but, I believe, well after Raffy left the Cubs. Even so, and I have no evidence for this, but I wonder if it's possible if Skip might not like Raffy due to Raffy's relationship with Ryne Sandberg (I just can't remember if Skip was around in Chicago that long ago). It was strongly rumored that Sandberg's 1st wife (gorgeous, but, then, so is his 2nd wife) was doing it with Raffy in the late 80's, which then hastenend Raffy's departure from the Cubs. Which, to me (since I wondered about Raffy, too), would come as no big surprise that Raffy is into this:

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 13):
he does shill for another form of "enhancement" drug...



Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
If Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because of 1 home run and amazing defense, who the hell are the BBWA to exclude Rafie from the Hall?

Raffy will get into the hall - but since you bring up that point, who are they to not include a 3B like Ron Santo (15 seasons; 2254 hits; 1138 runs scored; 1331 RBI; lifetime .277 BA; lifetime OBP .362; lifetime SLG .464; 4 time NL leader in walks - 1108 BB to 1343 SO - not shabby for a prolific power hitter - 342 HR - 5 time Gold Glove winner '64-'68, and only 1x from '61-'73 did he play less than 150 games) vs. that of, say, Brooks Robinson (23 seasons; 2848 hits; 1232 runs scored; 1357 RBI; lifetime .267 BA; lifetime OBP .322; lifetime SLG .401; a comparable BB-to-SO ratio with 860-990, respectively; only 268 HR's). Robinson had 1 MVP and 16 Gold Gloves (and that's the reason), and he was on 2 World Series champions ('66 and '70). Put the Gold Gloves off to the side for a moment - Robinson has 1 MVP against Santo, but practically all of his other numbers either (more or less) compare evenly or simply fall short, and he had 8 more seasons of playing time. Some of those numbers he wouldn't have been able to change much with more time (like the percentages - which are smaller than Santo's - that's what jumps out at me), but some could've/should've been bigger (like hits, RBI, HR). And his team blew it against the Amazin's, just like Santo's, too, so not everything was perfect w/his O's. But the big thing is the Gold Gloves. Regardless, it's an injustice, though - Santo should be in there.

Now after that rant, there's an outside shot the BBWA will screw up w/Raffy, but not likely. I don't really have much against him (unless it's true he was doing Sandberg's wife), but I don't much like him, either, but Raffy has put up too ridiculously huge numbers for them to ignore. I remember at the end of the 90's, it was between Raffy and Mark Grace as to who would be the Major League leader in hits for the decade (I think Grace had that honor), so Raffy was very consistent. But it's not outside the realm of the geniuses to hold something agaisnt Raffy (perhaps that he's had no World Championships, like Santo) or simply to fail to recognize the enormity of his achievements.

-R


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

And yes, I plan to start my Anet campaign for Omar Vizquel, when it becomes apparent he's ready to hang them up. After that, if he can get and stay healthy, and play another 5 seasons, I plan to do the same for Jim Thome.  Smile

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
doing it with Raffy

Wow, I feel 12 again

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
(unless it's true he was doing Sandberg's wife),

Much better way to put it, but then again, who cares?

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 17):
(perhaps that he's had no World Championships, like Santo)

Neither did Rhyno, and it didn't stop him. Come to think of it, Palmiero had a better career in almost every way than Ryne Sandberg.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1078 times:

Thanks, N1120A - now I'm devoting another chunk of time comparing 2 players (but no biggie - I can be a huge sports junkie, especially on baseball stats  thumbsup  ).

Sandberg - 16 seasons; 2386 hits (stinkin' close to 3,000); 1061 RBI (low number); 282 HR (decent); 344 SB; 761 - 1260 BB-SO ratio (bad enough); lifetime .285 BA; lifetime .344 OBP; lifetime .452 SLG with 1 NL MVP ('84) and 9 Gold Gloves ('83-'91), but, like you said (and the continual angst of us Cub fans), no World Series.

Palmeiro - 19 seasons; 2922 hits at the end of 2004 (comparable enough to Sandberg); 1775 RBI; 551 homers (a HUGE difference); 95 SB (not his strength, though); 1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible); lifetime .289 BA (his one low point - he should be hovering at .300); lifetime .372 OBP; lifetime .517 SLG (another big number); 2 Silver Sluggers ('98-'99); 3 Gold Gloves ('97-'99), but, also, no World Series. He should be traded to NY for that - they need a 1B/DH (more than what they have in Tino or Giambi).

You're right - except for that 1 MVP of Sandberg, Palmeiro has him pretty much even or simply outclassed everwhere. So Raffy's a shoo-in, then.

-R


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26609 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1074 times:

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
Sandberg - 16 seasons; 2386 hits (stinkin' close to 3,000);

That is 3 seasons for Ichiro, would be 4-5 for Rhyno.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
282 HR (decent);

Number 2 all time second base HRs behind Jeff Kent (who I cannot stand BTW)

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible);

I did not know that. That is f'ing amazing considering he is a slugger



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
1310-1305 BB-SO ratio (simply incredible);

I did not know that. That is f'ing amazing considering he is a slugger

Yeah, and I double-checked that just to make sure I didn't post some crazy numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/palmera01.shtml

And I also double-checked ESPN.com to make sure:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=1764

Even if the 3,000/500 club wasn't enough, that would seal the deal.

-R


User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1062 times:

Raffy is a consummate gentleman and a great player. I always enjoyed watching him play for the Rangers and he has the sweetest swing in baseball.
He has basically floated under the radar for his whole career, and that is a shame.

He deserves to go to the HOF without question and without reservation.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
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