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Why Did The UK Keep Its Head In The Sand Pre-7/7?  
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Even before the events of 7/7 and 7/21, it was clear to many security observers and analysts that the UK was setting itself up for terror troubles by permitting an environment where Islamist extremist terrorism could flourish.

Here's an excerpt from the New York Times:

"At the same time, British authorities are facing unusually frank criticism from officials and leaders of some Muslim states about their tolerance of radical Islamist clerics and others on their soil.

Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador, said in a radio interview on Friday that it was a "true criticism" to say Britain had offered sanctuary too easily. "Allowing them to go on using the hospitality and the generosity of the British people to emanate from here such calls for killing and such I think is wrong."

President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan also noted that some Islamist groups banned in Pakistan "operate with impunity" in Britain."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/in...400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

I understand the desire to have a free, diverse, and open society, but IMHO, it still does not excuse the lacksidaisical attitude by the UK in its security and immigration policies which allow terror cells to develop and thrive. What say you on this calamity, and what policy issues should the UK consider in order to ameliorate the situation?


Live life to the fullest.
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCatatonic From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1155 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

You know what, we are as guilty of harboring terrorists as Iraq! These hardline clerics take the p*ss out of Britain's human rights legislation. One guy publicly applauded 9/11 and 7/7 and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up. He uses legal aide money to fight the government who want to haul his ass out and he basically wins the right to stay here on human rights legislation.

[Edited 2005-07-24 02:39:42]


Equally Cursed and Blessed.
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2211 times:

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
He uses legal aide money to fight the government who want to haul his ass out and he basically wins the right to stay here on human rights legislation.

Dont you just love European Democracy... **sigh**



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

The government have tried to deport the fat, fanatic, benefit junkie turds at least 20 times in the past few years, hitting a wall of legal challenges each time.
One was banged up in Belmarsh, the Law Lords got him released.

Over here, many (self appointed) Muslim spokesmen have bitched about how 'we are being harassed' and such like, so how the dictator of Pakistan (who provides a few of the massive numbers of Islamic loons there up for trial everytime there is an attack or a state visit, just to show what a good boy he is being), can say they operate with impunity is beyond me.
Which is it?

That's the dirty little secret of the War On Terror, no way that Musharraf could really crack down, too many of them with too much support, as it is he's faced assassination attempts from them, the sinister Pakistani Secret Service (who helped get the Taliban in business) are likely deeply compromised too.

While it's true that human rights leglislation has been used to protect the scumbags here, I think the recent attacks will change this some.
I was surprised to see the director of Liberty not jump in with instant condemnation over the tragic shooting of the Brazilian man at Stockwell, rather she accepted that it was a tragedy for everyone, including the no doubt frightened Officer and that all the facts need to be known before a rush to judgement. Since Liberty have been the leading lights in previously protecting some of the mad Mullahs from legal sanction, have worked hard to block much of the governments Anti Terror leglislation, this might indicate a change in attitude.
I might be being too cynical, but I reckon many of Liberty are users of London Buses and Tubes.

Certainly those who have been saying the Government have been hyping up the terror threat these last 4 years, for some kind of political reason, have been very quiet recently.
Blair, and his government, have bored us all silly since 2001 warning of the threat!


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

I dont' think it is so much 'head in the sand', but there are serious conflicts with laws as to religious rights in the the USA, the UK and most Western/Westernized countries. They have strong policies as to separation of Church and state as well as freedom of speech laws which makes it difficult to monitor or follow religious meetings or services by government police agencies as much as we all would want it.
There is no doubt that in a number of places in the world, including the USA, UK, France, and others, there are peverse, anti-western Islamic Imans, and other related leaders. Even in the USA we have seen perverse Christian cults (David Koresh and Waco, TX) or 'Christian' individuals that have commited acts of terror (the recently conviced Rudolph with the 1996 olympics, Birmingham, AL abortion clinics, and 3 other deadly attacks). Do we want our government to monitor certain Christian groups? If so which ones? the ones that disagree with Government policy or those that encourage violence against groups of people? It is a terrible conflict of our societies.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 4):
Do we want our government to monitor certain Christian groups?

The USG actively monitors extremist Christian groups who seek to use violence to achieve their goals.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up

-
In the 90ies, I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows. I also was astonished to see, on the southern side of Kensington Gore Road near Knightsbridge, a sizeable building clearly marked in Arabic and English as "Islamic Academy", and two guys leaning out of a window in the first floor, inviting passers-by to "join some interesting discussions we have here" . I at that time was NOT aware of the "corporate owner" of that academy, but its "leaning" was absolutely clear at once and beyond ANY doubts.
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Another matter is that Britain and the USA gave asylum to the most extreme, dangerous and destestable fundamentalist terrorists. The USA even harboured some people who were involved in assassination of President Anwar al-Sadat. Both the USA and Britain throughout the 90ies routinely turned down extradition requests from Jordan, Egypt and Algeria. To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
and yet still lives her on state benefits as we wont deport him to Jordan because they will slice his fat ass up

-
In the 90ies, I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows. I also was astonished to see, on the southern side of Kensington Gore Road near Knightsbridge, a sizeable building clearly marked in Arabic and English as "Islamic Academy", and two guys leaning out of a window in the first floor, inviting passers-by to "join some interesting discussions we have here" . I at that time was NOT aware of the "corporate owner" of that academy, but its "leaning" was absolutely clear at once and beyond ANY doubts.
-
 duck 
-
-
-
Another matter is that Britain and the USA gave asylum to the most extreme, dangerous and destestable fundamentalist terrorists. The USA even harboured some people who were involved in assassination of President Anwar al-Sadat. Both the USA and Britain throughout the 90ies routinely turned down extradition requests from Jordan, Egypt and Algeria. To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .
-
 hissyfit 
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User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
One was banged up in Belmarsh, the Law Lords got him released.

-> in case you mean Lotfi Raissi --- THAT man is innocent. He, whenever of course denying it, spoke with people in Queensway W2 in August/Sep 2000, who later were involved with 11Sep01 . I, almost at the same time in the same place, met the same folks and also spoke with them. Neither Lotfi Raissi nor I had an idea about what really was in the offing. His arrestation lead to a SHARP change of my holiday-plans I can tell you !
-
-
It is most embarassing to see that he, whenever vindicated legally of any guilt, still is regarded as "one of them" !


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Thread starter):
Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador, said in a radio interview on Friday that it was a "true criticism" to say Britain had offered sanctuary too easily. "Allowing them to go on using the hospitality and the generosity of the British people to emanate from here such calls for killing and such I think is wrong."

I think that Mr. Ambassador should be most of quiet since the role of the medieval kingdom he represents as far as harboring and sponsoring of terrorism is concerned is more than questionable.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
To blame Arabs and Muslims AFTER something bad happened, is cheap, malicious and mean .

Last time I checked it's, with surprising notoriety, always them who pull the trigger. Sure, the British government could be criticized for not doing enough to prevent it but the direct blame for the actions resulting in killings of innocent is spot on.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6):
I always was much surprised to see that half a dozen bookshops on Charing Cross Road had most extreme fundamentalist literature in both Arabic AND English not only INside the shops but even on display in the shop-windows.

I think it's unbelievably hypocritical to blame the authorities for letting these bookshops to exist because with great degree of certainty I see the same people crying bloody murder, be full of human rights, freedom of speech and blah blah and get all agitated the very moment first of these bookshops would be shut down by the authorities.


User currently offlineVS747SPUR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting Catatonic (Reply 1):
These hardline clerics take the p*ss out of Britain's human rights legislation.

That Omar Bakri is trying to claim human rights, does someone want to tell him that preaching terror is not human and killing innocent people is not human ?



Fly DL
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
these bookshops would be shut down

- the authorities could have told them to take those things out of the shop-windows as being causing "public anger"
- the authorities could have acted against the owners as "encouraging criminal behaviour"
-


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 9):
always them

-> really ? including terrorist attacks causing loss of life done by people of IRA, ETA and terrorists in Latin America ? also in case of the attack in Oklahoma-City ? also the various kidnappings by terrorists in Latin America ? also the attack in the Tokyo tube a few years ago ? also the terrorist attacks in Nepal ? --- no, your allegation does NOT hold water and simply is a generalisation


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
including terrorist attacks causing loss of life done by people of IRA, ETA and terrorists in Latin America ? also in case of the attack in Oklahoma-City ? also the various kidnappings by terrorists in Latin America ? also the attack in the Tokyo tube a few years ago ?

fine company for the Arab/Muslim terrorists isn' it?

Anyway, I thought we are talking about islamic terrorism, are we not...?
AFAIK, no one - at least here on a.net - is even trying to defend and/or find excuses for the atrocities of perpetrated by McVeigh, Maoist rebels in Nepal, IRA, ETA, etc. the way you, Jacobin and other terrorist apologists do. That, my friend, is THE difference.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
I thought we are talking about islamic terrorism, are we not...?

No, we are NOT ! We are talking about the lack of alertness of British authorities in regard to terrorism in the 90ies, which contributed to the present problems. And let's clarify it, I do NOT believe that this was the major reason for the London-attacks. Let's go back 5 years. In late 2000, Usama BinLadn deleted France and Britain from his "attack-lists" and stopped his local "franchisees" from attacks in the two countries, due to the positive stance of both in regard to the Middle East, most notably Palestine. Britain re-entered such lists upon its participation in the invasion and occupation of Iraq. So that, whatever "mistakes" British authorities may have "committed" before, the main problems are less than 2 years old, and rest with the government. A British PrimeMinister increasingly perceived as the lackey of the White House, almost "invited" such things. Simplifying matters may be good business for the "scandal-press" but does not meet realities.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 13):
even trying to defend and/or find excuses for the atrocities of perpetrated by McVeigh, Maoist rebels in Nepal, IRA, ETA, etc. the way you, Jacobin and other terrorist apologists do

- I did not and do not find excuses for the attrocities you mentioned and I am NOT a "terrorist apologist", not at all. And having read the posts of "Jacobin" I do NOT see him as a "terrorist apologist" either. So that your unfounded unjust unfair allegation is to be refused totally and absolutely.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5728 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
In late 2000, Usama BinLadn deleted France and Britain from his "attack-lists" and stopped his local "franchisees" from attacks in the two countries, due to the positive stance of both in regard to the Middle East, most notably Palestine.

Hmmm, maybe Usama should open a PO box at a post office close to his cave in Pakistan, Afghanistan or wherever he's hiding at the moment so the governments can consult the course of their respective foreign policies in order not to be targeted by the terrorists?
Positive? I see it as biased the way Usama wants. That's appeasment and the French have great tradition in this regard. Their foreign policy (unfortunately also EU's) is so blindly pro-Palestinian because:
a) they will automatically choose the opposite stance than Americans, right or wrong, just to comfort their trauma from being medium-size former imperial power not being taken as seriously as they think they should be.
b) the government and its foreign policies is virtually hostage of the timebomb in the form of 10% of immigrants from Arab/Muslim countries.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
I see it as biased the way Usama wants

-> no, it is well-balanced and unbiased, and most positive --- not as extremely one-sidedly pro-Zionist as the US-American one

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
virtually hostage of the timebomb in the form of 10% of immigrants

-> true, the 15 mio. people of Arab origin living in France, a bit more than half of them French citizens, nowadays have a healthy and positive influence onto French foreign policy. It is no longer the 1950ies, when the French Jews virtually controlled ME-politics of France.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2062 times:

MEL AV FAN, no, it was hate cleric Baki I was referring to, not Raissi.

I would not take seriously any declaration by OBL, besides, we know it's BS, as the French foiled an attack by Islamists on the Christmas Markets in Strasbourg in late 2000.

OBL does not really see various Western nations as really different from one another, if he implies as much it's to attempt the further split the West.
And the idea we in the UK suddenly became targets after Iraq is BS too, more so perhaps, but we've always been a target.

The original planning for Sept 11th included not only more attacks in the US that day (up to 10 aircraft, whittled down for practicality reasons, like number of decent operatives available to actually do it, to 5, then finally 4 aircraft).

But a recent trail in Mumbai indicated the UK too was originally a target that day;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1534637,00.html

[Edited 2005-07-24 17:34:39]

User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

There was a survey in the Daily Telegraph yesterday. The results about British Muslim's disturb me - one in four actually sympathise with the terrorists.

32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end"

18% Feel little or no loyalty to the UK.

Source:The Daily Telegraph

What the hell are they doing living in this country if they do not agree with it's ways? Those 32% can piss off, and go and live in a country with those who share their ideals as far as I'm concerned.



No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 19):
What the hell are they doing living in this country if they do not agree with it's ways?

Ask the managers of the UK's immigration policies.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
The original planning for Sept 11th included not only more attacks in the US that day (up to 10 aircraft, whittled down for practicality reasons, like number of decent operatives available to actually do it, to 5, then finally 4 aircraft). But a recent trail in Mumbai indicated the UK too was originally a target that day;


-
Among the original targets of 11Sep01 were the Theatre District in London with about three theatres targeted and the Eiffel Tower in Paris. London and Paris then apparently got "deleted".


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 19):
32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end"

-
while 83% regard the attacks as NOT justified and 6% have no opinion, which leaves 11%. So that 21% want to change things by peaceful means.
-
Only 11% to return then.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 20):
Ask the managers of the UK's immigration policies

-
They could NOT answer the question, as
A) those who immigrated were pro-U.K.
B) those 11% (upto 32%) to a wide extent are born in the U.K. and are British citizens


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
They could NOT answer the question, as
A) those who immigrated were pro-U.K.
B) those 11% (upto 32%) to a wide extent are born in the U.K. and are British citizens

Sure, at the time of emigration to the UK, almost all UK immigrants certainly were/are pro-UK. However, as the excitement of moving to a new land wore off and increasing numbers of Islamic World immigrants to the UK (and their descendants) failed to assimilate effectively into British life, the conditions were set for extremist Islamist terrorism to take root and thrive in the UK.

That said, I recognize that immigration policy is only one shortcoming - what about the policies governing speech (and enforcement of the same) that allowed extremist religious leaders to propagate hatred?

[Edited 2005-07-24 18:39:51]


Live life to the fullest.
25 GDB : But the ones questioned in this survey will almost certainly have been born here, with UK passports. Deport them to where exactly? Of course some migh
26 L410Turbolet : These figures kinda put into a completely different light those previous statements tied with political correctness about few out-of-control individua
27 ME AVN FAN : -> in many democratic countries in Europe like Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France and others, there are laws against racist remarks in public, in ne
28 L410Turbolet : Such as???
29 ME AVN FAN : - - "Machines" in pubs and restaurants for "playing" for money. Such machines have been prohibited in Switzerland a year ago. It was quite an object
30 MD11Engineer : I don't gamble out of principle, but whoever wants to waste his/her money this way is free to do so. While I agree that street prostitution is highly
31 Jaysit : Strong words coming from a country which a. harbors the rancid Wahabbis who are pretty much the worst instigators and apologists for Islamic fundamen
32 L410Turbolet : It's their money and if they want to waste this way so be it. I don't gamble regularly but if there's some ridiculously huge jackpot I try my luck. W
33 Jaysit : Well, some Europeans like baring their bodies. So what? Muslims in Europe should accept that self-expression of that kind is part of European culture
34 Scbriml : The fact that most of them were born in the UK may have something to do with it.
35 BMIFlyer : Like I said yesterday, Blair... SCRAP THE HUMAN RIGHTS LAW NOW!!! Then, deport these assholes. I think i've said enough. Lee
36 ME AVN FAN : � -> no, in Switzerland you no longer can do so -> the point in question is not drinking and not even to BE drunk but to appear drunk on the roa
37 ME AVN FAN : - well, the question still is, WHAT ARE TERRORISTS ? of whatever colour or religion. --- They are people who decide that the use of total and absolut
38 MD11Engineer : Well, sorry, if I go to e.g. a Middle Eastern country or even to the strictly Roman-Catholic province of the Philippines my girlfriend comes from, I a
39 SkySurfer : We got lax, just like the states did pre 9/11.....we thought, it can't happen to us so we're safe. 9/11 should've changed that for everyone everywhere
40 ME AVN FAN : -> you REALLY want to indicate it is the same in the Mediterranean area of Europe ? ------- and yes, the 24% mentioned would like to change the point
41 L410Turbolet : Firts of all, I meant lotto. AFAIK, this is still legal in Switzerland because someone just won some ridiculously huge jackpot not too long ago. Rega
42 ME AVN FAN : Yes, absolutely correct it in fact DOES work the other way, with most at least this is only the custom in Saudi Arabia, but NOT in the other countrie
43 MD11Engineer : So you go to a nudist beach in a place where it is tolerated and cover yourself outside, as it is done in orthern Europe as well. What I don't agree w
44 ME AVN FAN : - You can be member of any religious "community" but being secular. That is no contradiction. - And a clear majority of Muslims in Europe support the
45 MD11Engineer : I know this, but my message was meant for the moralists (and this includes Christian biblethumpers as well). Nobody forces them to drink alcohol, vis
46 ME AVN FAN : - The HYPOCRISY of such "moralist / traditional / religious" folks is one of the worst aspects of the matter indeed
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