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ACLU: Witch Hunters Or Crusaders?  
User currently offlinePsa53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2115 times:

This issue,without doubt,will be one vocal strong opinion.

The ACLU:Witch hunters or crusaders?
Removing any reference to God from government public places.


My opinion:Take away the religious factor,God is a proven
historical figure and is acknowledge by the majority as such.
Therefore,I believe it is justified to call the ACLU for what they are.
An organized leftwing extremist group out on witch hunt.

What's your opinion?
Thanks.


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2110 times:

Quoting Psa53 (Thread starter):
What's your opinion?

That your classification of ACLU is bs and that the idea of "removing any reference to God from government public places" is the same.

No God has ever been proven to exist, unless of course you quote some other proof that people just have to "believe in". Since separation of Church and State is a mighty good idea (as long as you have some sort of ethical guideline) and you have to demand $1,000 to get $1, I can't see how they're extremists.

Edit: darn quotation marks

[Edited 2005-08-02 22:45:24]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting Psa53 (Thread starter):
God is a proven
historical figure and is acknowledge by the majority as such.

 rotfl   rotfl 

Proven by whom? And acknowledged by which majority?

Jan


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2094 times:

They're nothing more than attention whores. They support whoever will get their name in the media. One week, they'll support a group trying to stop the KKK from marching in their neighborhood; the next, they'll be supporting the KKK in trying to get them a permit to march in a town. The ACLU likes having their name in the news, so they'll do what it takes to keep it there. It's good that they fight for people's rights, unfortunately, they also are hypocrites while doing so.

User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2090 times:

The ACLU will fight for the disadvantaged, they have represented KKK members in their right (unfortunately) to hold public meetings, etc. Without them, your liberties will be taken away faster than you can say Patriot Act 2

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2090 times:

In a society of checks and balances, a group such as the ACLU is needed. We all benefit from it, even though they can thrill or appall you depending on their issue du jour.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePsa53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):

Proven by whom? And acknowledged by which majority?

Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.I would say that's historical acknowledgement by the masses.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 3):
unfortunately, they also are hypocrites while doing so.

Why are they hypocrites just because they have an unusual point of view? AFAIK, ACLU works/"fights" for every American's civil liberties as opposed to being leftwing/rightwing supporters. I like that one, goes nice with that old saying "I may not like what you have to say, but I will give my life in the fight for your right to say it."



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 4):
Without them, your liberties will be taken away faster than you can say Patriot Act 2

That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.


User currently offlineSRQCrosscheck From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2081 times:

Congress shall not repect and establishment of religion , or prohibit the free expression thereof.

It seems to me that the Founding Fathers were very clear about not establishing a theocracy. Many Anabaptists (Christians) were the first to argue for a separation between church and state after Calvin's experiment in Switzerland.

Note that Lincoln, who used Biblical phrases in his 2nd inaugural address, was unaffiliated with any religion!

The ACLU preserves the legacy of a secular government, while also protecting religious speech outside the government.

Excerpt:
"Throughout much of American history, the religion of past American presidents has been the subject of contentious debate. Some devout Americans have been disinclined to believe that there may have been agnostic or even non-Christian presidents, especially amongst the Founding Fathers of the United States. As a result, apocryphal stories of a religious nature have appeared over the years about particularly beloved presidents such as Washington and Lincoln. On the other hand, secular-minded Americans have sometimes downplayed the prominence that religion played in the private and political lives of the Founding Fathers." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...residential_religious_affiliations

Quoting Slider (Reply 8):
That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.

Says who? Do you you even know what liberty means?

[Edited 2005-08-02 23:13:22]

User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2074 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 8):
That's funny, because they're the ones trying to eliminate liberty.

I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?

Why do the masses have to protest it?

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.

Actually you don't have to swear on the Bible.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8735 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

Actually, there is no part of this knee-jerk reply to be understood. Maybe there would be if Slider backed his claim up.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePsa53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
I don't understand this comment, they are fighting for the minority whos rights are being trampled on by the majority.

But in reverse,the majority feel the same way."Under God" for example.

Quoting B744F (Reply 10):
Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?

Why do the masses have to protest it?

The point is.If God is a problem by the masses,why wasn't there a vote
to challenge the historical value or take out those words.

Thought:This is a great topic.I wish the media would open up and
ask the same question,ACLU. Witch hunter or Crusaders?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

As a PROUD card carrying member of the ACLU, I want to offer a compliment; at least they are consistent.

Can your organization say that?

Although some battles they chose to fight and some they represent sicken me; I am pompous about them and offer my support.

 Wink


User currently offlinePsa53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 13):
As a PROUD card carrying member of the ACLU

As to what media shows us,the ACLU seems to be on the attack to
remove God from government property and references,and goes out of it's way
to do so,and might be in control of atheists.
A lot of people have this idea of what the ACLU is as by what the media protrays.Is some of this true, not true?Is there a image problem?

[Edited 2005-08-03 00:23:20]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 12):
why wasn't there a vote
to challenge the historical value or take out those words.

Because a vote means the majority wins and is able to trample on the rights of the minority


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4284 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

The ACLU helps us fight Big Brother whenever government decides that we need less rights. They fight to allow us to continue to be able to express our ideas freely and not have our property illegally searched or seized, etc.

Quoting Psa53 (Reply 6):
Is there any protest by the masses in "In God We Trust" on our
money?Or,"Do you promise to tell the whole truth,nothing but the
truth,so help you God,by our courts.I would say that's historical acknowledgement by the masses.

Historical acknowledgment by the masses? It is the government attempting to dictate to us what we are to believe. Up until the 1950s, we never had "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. "In God We Trust" was not put on money until 1957. What of the millions of Americans who do not believe in God or who believe in a different God than the one invoked on money and in court? Isn't it heretical to have "In God We Trust" on our money, which is an idea that all capitalist countries worship instead of God? Why do we not hear cries of outrage from people over the worship of this false idol?

Anyway, the ACLU fights for all Americans to keep the rights we have and attempt to expand our freedoms. I do not always agree with them, in fact I frequently think they are pursuing idiotic endeavors, however I respect them for consistently helping us fight for our rights.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

And if you put Slavery and Equal rights up for a vote they most surely would have failed to win a majority. Thankfully we have groups like the ACLU to fight for everyone who refuses to buy into the mob mentality

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

The ACLU has gone way overboard on many issues . . . . IMO . . .

I won't classify them as "Witch Hunters" . . .

I won't classify them as Crusaders . . .

In my opinion, they often have misplaced loyaties as far as the cases the take one. I'm all for fighting for the little guy when Big Brother steps on someone but I believe the ACLU has lost track of it's roots . . . they are dangerous . . . they are misguided . . . they are Schiester Lawyers in other words . . .


User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 17):
has lost track of it's roots . . . they are dangerous . . . they are misguided

Dangerous? that's a very interesting choice of words considering the alternative of no ACLU, which is far more dangerous

[Edited 2005-08-03 02:21:33]

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

I realize my choice of words . . . I also realize A-Net's quote function hosed your post  biggrin .

Dangerous . . . when they begin to evolve out of their niche of protecting the little guy . . .

I agree the ACLU is warranted . . . but they've lost focus . . .


User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

Yes the quote system is fantastic I've learned. But how are they evolving to not protect the little guy?

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

I'll make you a deal, you answer my question on Intel in the other thread, and I'll make an answer to your question here . . . you first . . .

User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
you first . . .

you're it


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 23):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
you first . . .

you're it

 rotfl 

Let's start with :
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=18822&c=282

That'll be good. It's a good bet 80 year old grannies aren't blowing up Transit Trains . . . . it was a good bet 3 year old babies didn't fly jetliners into the WTC.

As I said, they are there to protect the little guy, and for that, they are commended.

Other cases that come to mind, the Asshole in California (?) that wants Under God removed from the Pledge of Allegience. Screw that asshole, just don't say it.

There comes a point when we are too gawddamned policitically correct and we'll all live int he same house, drive the same car, have the same names for our rugrats because some poor fucker will be offended . . . Screw 'Em. Be offended . . . .


25 Post contains images B744F : But they are protecting the little guy, whether you agree with those cases or not. It is obvious from the Oklahoma City bombing that you can't just lo
26 ANCFlyer : Agree completely . . . however, recent events have shown that it isn't the Southern Baptist or Presbyterian that is blowing shit up and flying planes
27 SCCutler : I'm no great fan of the ACLU, but you know, it's a funny thing: they're a bunch of radical nut jobs until you need 'em, and then, they may be the only
28 FDXMECH : The ACLU didn't end slavery, the Civil War did. Womens right to vote also wasn't enacted by the ACLU. The Constitution preserves our freedoms, certai
29 B744F : You are taking this out of context. I just said if you put up to vote those examples the majority would never have supported the correct decision The
30 Psa53 : I was shocked when I heard my grandmother admitted she was atheist.She never admitted that because my step-grandfather(RIP) always went church.It was
31 B744F : It doesn't matter the number, God has no place in a country who claims religious freedom and free thought. The numbers are not important, because, the
32 Post contains images FlyingTexan : There are many myths about the ACLU. A few of them: MYTH: The ACLU wants to remove crosses from federal cemeteries. FACT:    MYTH: The ACLU objects
33 Tbar220 : Oh isn't that just a priceless gem. Care to back that one up? You are trying to ask for even debate when you are calling them either "witch hunters"
34 ANCFlyer : Yes to all of the above . . . Read the rest of my posts there TBar . . .
35 Tbar220 : Sorry, I fail to see in your posts where you explain how the ACLU is dangerous. How are they "dangerous"? In what way are they "dangerous" to you and
36 Psa53 : Right.I guess I was looking it from a media perspective that deals in the two extremes,unfortunately. I disagree in asking what the numbers are, as p
37 B744F : you're right I should have stated it that way.
38 SRQCrosscheck : discrimination , often aka racism : 1 b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently 3 a : the act, pract
39 Slider : ** It was the ACLU who trained hundreds of blockers to harass the voters as they attempted to sign petitions in Bay Windows, Mass. This was an illega
40 FDXMECH : The problem is I no longer see the ACLU being relevant in our society if only because of the many positions they take which, IMO, are contrary to our
41 B744F : Ridiculous. The ACLU is the only option poor people can turn to, it is the only opinion people can turn to who has a strong voice and will support ju
42 FDXMECH : That would actually be the purpose of our Constitution. If a despot took over the US and discarded our Constitution, what power would the ACLU have t
43 B744F : The ACLU is not powerless as long as the court of law decides what is lawful. There needs to be a counter to corporate lawyers just like there needs t
44 Post contains links Psa53 : Here is some quotes on Roger Baldwin. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/roger_baldwin.html
45 FDXMECH : But the courts are governed by the Constitution. The ACLU doesn't supersede the Constitution.
46 Post contains links Psa53 : Here's a Bio on Roger Baldwin. http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/baldwin.html Notice the author for reference. Another point of view- htt
47 SRQCrosscheck : Point? Free political speech is protected by the first amendment. This isn't the 1920s or 50s, we don't have HUAAC anymore (oh wait, nevermind, Patri
48 57AZ : Another student of simplified American History, eh? In all actuality, the Civil War did not end the institution of slavery. Care to consider that the
49 FDXMECH : The ACLU ended slavery then?
50 FDXMECH : If our Constitution was dangerous then the ACLU couldn't operate. Ironically, I see the ACLU as a nefarious organization manipulating the Constitutio
51 FDXMECH : Why was Gen. Butler's nickname, "Spoons"?
52 Post contains links SRQCrosscheck : The Civil War was fought primarily over slavery, however. This is particularly evident if you examine the war songs sung by Union troops -- almost al
53 Slider : No argument there. But I disagree with the ACLU's selective interpretation of what they believe should be protected and not protected. What rights? T
54 Post contains links Slider : NYC ACLU files suit to stop random searches on subways. http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/....story?coll=nyc-homepage-breaking2 Great report from Br
55 SRQCrosscheck : First of all, the ACLU isn't defending baby rapers in criminal court, so I don't know where you get off saying that ACLU wants NAMBLA running wild. T
56 Greyhound : So you can protect LGBT peoples rights by FORCING kids to watch a sexual orientation tolerance video? That would definetly make me want to think a di
57 MD-90 : The ACLU used to be a good organization that fought the good fights. Now they're just another secular leftist socialist group attempting to remake soc
58 Slider : Highly debatable. And I'm not a conservative. You cannot seriously contrast the plight of and legal history of racial integration to that of the gay
59 SRQCrosscheck : No where am I suggesting that intolerance for homosexuality is as onorous as racism against African-Americans, but I am making a point that there is
60 Airbus3801 : Since when has God been proven to exist, I believe that hasn't happened yet... The ACLU (if this wasn't just an example) is doing nothing wrong by ge
61 B744F : The courts are here to decide if something is Constitutional, they uphold the law and make sure the laws of the land are not abused by the other gove
62 B744F : Speaking of simplified versions of history, you take the cake on this one. Slavery was THE ISSUE of the day, bottom line. End of discussion. The Civi
63 MD-90 : That's pure ignorance speaking, right there. Neither constitution outlawed slavery, bucko. And the Confederacy's constitution was much more like the
64 TedTAce : Are you REALLY this dumb??? At what point in the quote you used did FDX say that the ACLU controlled the courts?? You and Stuart must be related.
65 B744F : You are completely wrong. Souther apologists love to try to bring this up. The economic reason was the outlaw of slavery which would have killed the
66 FlyingTexan : Do you refer to it as The War of Northern Agression?
67 57AZ : No. Actually it still exists to this day. If you work in a federal office, may of your stationary items (desk planners, etc) are manufactured with pr
68 FDXMECH : I think your Tennessee roots are skewing your vision. Massachetts, the colony (not a state), legalizes slavery in 1641 Massachusetts abolishes slaver
69 Cfalk : No it isn't. The 13th Amendment reads: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been
70 FDXMECH : The US primary war goal was to restore the union, not freeing the slaves. However the slavery issue (not complete abolition, mind you) is what drove
71 MD-90 : Why not? It's better than "The Civil War," when there was nothing civil about it (the South did not try to overthrow the national government, only se
72 FDXMECH : I'd venture to say it didn't start in the south because extablished northern colonies such as Massachusetts, Vermont, etc were around much longer tha
73 MD-90 : Segregation really jumped after the war, because Yankees were horrified that "those black people" would come up there an take away their jobs. I'm ori
74 B744F : You need to read the decision again, and the rant Marshall gave and the broad brush he painted, going from a federalist to a states rights justice fo
75 GuitrThree : The ACLU stands for American Communists Living Underground. At least thats who they defend....
76 B744F : So the KKK can be classified as communists?
77 MD-90 : Oh boohoo, I guess you obviously aren't capable of appreciating one of the true classics of American literature. It was not treason if the pact that
78 57AZ : Actually, there is nothing in the original text of the United States Constitution forbidding the secession of member states. The act of secession its
79 Cfalk : I agree that the act of secession itself was not in itself treasonous. However, when an attack was made on the U.S. Army outpost at Fort Sumter in Ch
80 57AZ : That is in fact true. The founders did not specify any mechanism for secession but did not prohibit it in the Constitution. As you point out, the sece
81 Cfalk : Robert E. Lee was considered an extraordinarily fine man by all those who knew him, including those who fought against him, such as Ullyses Grant. Hi
82 Cfalk : And by the way. Robert E. Lee freed all of his slaves 10 years before the war. But ALL of his former slaves chose to remain in his service right up un
83 57AZ : I do concede that Robert E. Lee was a well educated individual who is to be respected for his views on the issues of his time. He did quite a lot to h
84 Cfalk : I'll agree with you there.
85 ME AVN FAN : the problem of course is that many government buildings around the globe are on older places which got their names BEFORE the government office in qu
86 Cfalk : Bull. When have the ACLU defended someone's second amendment rights? When have they defended the rights of persons (especially christians) to exercis
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