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More Evidence Of Torture By U.S. Forces  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs
Interrogated General's Sleeping-Bag Death, CIA's Use of Secret Iraqi Squad Are Among Details

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 3, 2005; Page A01

Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush was being stubborn with his American captors, and a series of intense beatings and creative interrogation tactics were not enough to break his will. On the morning of Nov. 26, 2003, a U.S. Army interrogator and a military guard grabbed a green sleeping bag, stuffed Mowhoush inside, wrapped him in an electrical cord, laid him on the floor and began to go to work. Again.

It was inside the sleeping bag that the 56-year-old detainee took his last breath through broken ribs, lying on the floor beneath a U.S. soldier in Interrogation Room 6 in the western Iraqi desert. Two days before, a secret CIA-sponsored group of Iraqi paramilitaries, working with Army interrogators, had beaten Mowhoush nearly senseless, using fists, a club and a rubber hose, according to classified documents.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...AR2005080201941.html?nav=rss_world

***

So some of our soldiers are carrying out torture with the help of a secret group sponsored by the CIA...

***

CIA's Scorpions 'poisoned' Iraq?

AFP[ WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 03, 2005 05:29:08 PM ]

WASHINGTON: Before the start of the US-led war in Iraq in March 2003, the CIA recruited and trained a paramilitary group named the Scorpions to foment rebellion, The Washington Post said on Wednesday.

Authorized by President George W. Bush in March 2002 as part of a policy of "regime change" in Iraq, the Scorpions were made up mostly of exiles recruited by the Kurds who were sent to Iraqi cities including Baghdad, Fallujah and Qaim to give the impression that a rebellion was underway, current and former US intelligence officials told the daily.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1190103.cms

***

So torture is pretty much illegal in the Western world. The United States doesn't formally admit to supporting torture, but they get others to do their dirty work for them. One may say that its not us doing the torture but others, but this was authorized by George Bush himself.

I don't want government sponsored torture as part of our policy. Its a disgrace that the President (Republican or Democrat), the leader of our country and the "leader of the free world", sponsors a group that carries out torture in Iraq.

When we torture Iraqis, what's going to happen to our soldiers when they're captured by insurgents?

Soldiers in the past used to surrender to the U.S. because they knew of the good treatment they would recieve as POW's. Now that torture has been exposed, will the same enemy soldiers now fight to the death rather than surrender?

I don't want our government sponsoring torture, either covert or in the open. Its disturbing.


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57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

So who is surprised ?

Maybe we need a video or photo serie for a public desperately trying not to see.

An unsensored video would be sobering. However the press doesn´t dare to come out of the hotels anymore & has to rely on official info.

Those folks now make sure constructive, helpfull, positive info and pictures come out (after some unfortunate, local incidents by some sole operating individuals came out)



User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1805 times:

What's worse is that these are probably isolated. Most soldiers aren't involved in any sort of interrogation or even know about these "Scorpions". Its these individuals, these small minority that are giving our armed forces a bad reputation. They are also endangering their lives should they ever become POW's. And you know who is responsible most? Bush and his cronies at the CIA who issued these orders.

But its ok, George Tenet got a medal!



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User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
What's worse is that these are probably isolated. Most soldiers aren't involved in any sort of interrogation or even know about these "Scorpions". Its these individuals, these small minority that are giving our armed forces a bad reputation. They are also endangering their lives should they ever become POW's. And you know who is responsible most? Bush and his cronies at the CIA who issued these orders.

Very well said. I know that a majority of our soldiers are trying to make the best out of a sh*t storm that is the Iraq war, but when the world hears about stuff like this, it completely destroys the credibility of our nation and detracts from the good things that our soldiers do.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1784 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
What's worse is that these are probably isolated. Most soldiers aren't involved in any sort of interrogation or even know about these "Scorpions". Its these individuals, these small minority that are giving our armed forces a bad reputation. They are also endangering their lives should they ever become POW's.

Agreed . . . a very few idiots are giving cannon fodder for the media, the terrorists, the insurgents, and our favorite A-Net US-Haters . . .

These sorry excuses for soldiers area travesty and they don't deserve the uniform they wear.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
But its ok, George Tenet got a medal!

That's BS as well, he should have been fired.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29706 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1775 times:

OH MY GOD THOSE GI'S ARE USING THOSE KIDS AS HUMAN SHEILDS....





I am sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US. It is disgusting the amount of hatred against the US, who has proved time and time again that they are the good guys in the world.

Just because we had to do the UN's job in Iraq.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Maybe we need a video or photo serie for a public desperately trying not to see.

An unsensored video would be sobering. However the press doesn´t dare to come out of the hotels anymore & has to rely on official info.

LOL, and you think everyone will be shocked and revolted? Many will cheer them on (me included). I'm all for pulling out as much info from them as possible in order to head off other attacks and to catch other sandcrickets who are still hiding.

Charles


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1743 times:
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Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
LOL, and you think everyone will be shocked and revolted? Many will cheer them on (me included).

It's the red meat bait they all wait for, "The Next Outrage".



Made from jets!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US

the USA is NOT brought down by liberals or socialists or communists. IF it might be brought down then it would be by just people who reduce its standards

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
the amount of hatred against the US

the amount of hatred against the USA as such is fairly minimal. Whenever many people hate the foreign policy of your country

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
the US, who has proved time and time again that they are the good guys in the world

THE good guys is a megalomaniac assumption and rather arrogant, as it ignores that the USA at best is AMONG the good ones. And whether it right at present really is among them is under discussion and quite questionable indeed

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
will cheer them on (me included). I'm all for pulling out as much info from them as possible in order to head off other attacks

that they try to get out ALL information is clear obvious and correct. The use of torture however reduces standards AND equals the US-forces to local Mukhaberat-forces of the worse kind. To use torture simply is wrong, and it is even more so from the side of a country which permanently preaches about "democracy", who permanently lectures about "human rights" and who permanently talks about "freedom". You cannot be in favour of human rights and freedom on Monday, Wednesday and Saturday, and in favour of torture and police-violence on Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
To use torture simply is wrong, and it is even more so from the side of a country which permanently preaches about "democracy", who permanently lectures about "human rights" and who permanently talks about "freedom".

I agree we should not use torture. But my idea of torture is different than the ACLU's. I think that anything that does not leave permanent physical scars is fine.


User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Ahhhhhhh ... and now we get to the point of fudging exactly what 'torture' is.

Apparently certain types is OK ? It's a slippery slope from here for sure ........



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 11):
anything that does not leave permanent physical scars

Beside the point that psychological torture ALSO IS torture, the point that sleeping-bags and other such bags ARE dangerous to life is already told to pupils and students and should be general wisdom. The rest of the treatment mentioned, was apparently of a nature which in the end might have left physical scars. The US-government btw. in the past has harshly criticized countries whose secret services specialized on torture which did/does NOT leave permanent detectable physical scars. If now, US "interrogators" are seen as being torturers reverting to non-provable violence and psychical torture, it is bad already. True, US-American torturers have two major "dis-advantages" if compared to their "colleagues" in more "authoritarian" countries. If somebody dies, it becomes known as the victim does NOT simply "disappear", and they have to face the probability that it becomes known to the media and IS reported.


User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US. It is disgusting the amount of hatred against the US, who has proved time and time again that they are the good guys in the world.

Just because we had to do the UN's job in Iraq.

trying to bring down the US by... reporting what the US does?

you just stay in the faux news comfort blanket


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
I am sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US.

Huh? Trying to bring down the US? Last time I checked, all we "lefties" wanted was George Bush to be "brought down". I doubt that has changed recently.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Just because we had to do the UN's job in Iraq.

So the US did an "UNamerican" job in Iraq? You went there do to the UN's job which automatically is "unamerican" according to right wing Americans, since it has something to do with the UN?

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 9):
It's the red meat bait they all wait for, "The Next Outrage".

I think someone needs a reality check. This thread is examplary, the anti-war fraction posted its opinions and took the time to write long(ish) posts to express them. The resident forum right wing replied with the usual knee-jerk "you're all anti-American" hogwash, in the way we've witnessed so often on this board. So who's waiting for the next opportunity to whine?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline7FTwinOtter From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):

I am sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US. It is disgusting the amount of hatred against the US, who has proved time and time again that they are the good guys in the world.

Just because we had to do the UN's job in Iraq.

its nice to see the propaganda machine is working.


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Agreed . . . a very few idiots are giving cannon fodder for the media, the terrorists, the insurgents, and our favorite A-Net US-Haters . . .

lol, ANC - cannon fodder? Not really - there are reasons, or don't you believe that? And who says if there are "very few" or the majority? Rumsfeld, the man who said that everybody knows ... (ah , see my signature).

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
OH MY GOD THOSE GI'S ARE USING THOSE KIDS AS HUMAN SHEILDS....

Not as human sheilds but they use them for propaganda reasons - also that ANC can say how nice and friendly the "boys" are, after they killed some innocent people on the streets or tortured people in their houses.

[Edited 2005-08-04 14:47:02]


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User currently offlineFDXMECH From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 12):
you just stay in the faux news comfort blanket

Do you watch, Fox News, regularly?



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
am sick and tired of every liberal/socialist/communist rag trying to bring down the US. It is disgusting the amount of hatred against the US, who has proved time and time again that they are the good guys in the world.

And I am sick of people like you, L-188, who won't even acknowledge, as ANCFlyer did, that there are some bad apples out there, doing bad things, and further eroding our credibility and our good name.

And stop pretending every "liberal", that catch-all phrase for righties who can't think for themselves, are 1. communists/socialists; 2. Aren't as good or as real Americans as himself 3; want to harm this country 4. don't support the American troops. You're rants in that manner are disgusting; they're false; they're below contempt. I'm every bit as good an American as you are-you and those like you don't hold the rights to being "good Americans', simply because you kiss Bush's butt, and because you're for this war.

Stick it, pal. These creeps, like ANC said, shoudln't be in uniform, and should end up in a prison, for life if they kill someone, as far as I'm concerned. But you brush off such behavior, and blame the "liberal media", or the "liberals" for daring to report on such stories. If you want good news out, L-188, you better be able to accept the legit bad news, and this is bad news.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):
Many will cheer them on (me included).

You'd cheer on the torture and murder of someone Charles? You're as bad as those we're supposedly fighting, if you feel that way.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 9):
I agree we should not use torture.

No, just cheer on as they're stuffed in a sleeping bag, beaten and then they die. No biggie, Charles.


User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting FDXMECH (Reply 16):
Do you watch, Fox News, regularly?

yes I watch it more than most news channels I like to keep an eye on the propaganda crap that's coming out.

From Brian Kilmede on fox and friends this morning regarding a tape that was shown on al jazeera

'well he's wearing a turban and robes that just helps us picture him as the bad guy'

nothing like turning the faux news viewing populous against anyone that wears a turban on a Thursday morning is it?

Fair and balanced? Most powerful name in news? I... Don't think so.

The 'pictures from the front lines' they sometimes run before adverts are a joke

i think its great how if the presenter says 'we have a fair and balanced debate coming up' just count the seconds till there's 2 republicans and a republican presenter on the screen. bloody anne coulter more often than not

best yet though I saw the other day, 'here we have Mr X, who ran the publicity campaign for Bush Chainey 05, he's also a fox news contributor'

thanks for asking though, even if its not what you wanted to hear.

 wave 


User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 18):
From Brian Kilmede on fox and friends this morning

Nice...refer to a breakfast show for your hard news. Come on man...

With regards to the General, from the story linked above:

Quote:
He told interrogators that he was the commander of the al Quds Golden Division, an organization of trusted loyalists fueling the insurgency with mortars, rocket-propelled grenades, sniper rifles, machine guns and other small arms.

Sorry, no love lost from me.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 15):
cannon fodder? Not really - there are reasons, or don't you believe that?

Yes #12 - Cannon Fodder . . . . this thread is a perfect example thereof. Had a few more of our troops not lost their damn minds and apparently tortured this man, this thread would not exist, now would it??? Cannon Fodder. . . so the likes of you (to a lesser extent) and PacificJourney (rather mildly this time) are usually chomping at the bit for any reason at all to declare the US an Evil Empire and our Military nothing but sadistic robots . . .

Of course I believe there are reasons - torture is wrong . . . it's beneath the US and it's troops . . . if it occurs, punish those responsible, including the CIA assholes that are ordering it . . .

Quoting NumberTwelve (Reply 15):
Rumsfeld, the man who said

Are you suffering from memory loss or have you missed the hundred or so posts where I mention - adamantly - that Rumsfeld is a waste of air?


. . . .

Having re-read the article again this morning, I have to wonder what has happened or will happen to the CIA assholes in the frey? Do they walk while some soldier following orders (albeit illegal IMO) gets hammered for life?

Guess we'll never know . . . .


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1642 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):

Of course I believe there are reasons - torture is wrong . . . it's beneath the US and it's troops . . . if it occurs, punish those responsible, including the CIA assholes that are ordering it . . .

Ok, well what about the President?

Authorized by President George W. Bush in March 2002 as part of a policy of "regime change" in Iraq, the Scorpions were made up mostly of exiles recruited by the Kurds who were sent to Iraqi cities including Baghdad, Fallujah and Qaim to give the impression that a rebellion was underway, current and former US intelligence officials told the daily.

He was the one that signed off and authorized this group called the Scorpions which are the ones assisting our troops in torture. Does he hold any responsibility for this?



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User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 19):
Nice...refer to a breakfast show for your hard news. Come on man...

I refer to a so called news program that goes out when impressionable children could be watching and to call anyone that wears a turban the bad guy is disgraceful idiotic propaganda


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
No, just cheer on as they're stuffed in a sleeping bag, beaten and then they die. No biggie, Charles.

You know perfectly well that is the opposite of what I said.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1630 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
You know perfectly well that is the opposite of what I said.

Actually, it isn't, Charles.

And why would you cheer the torture of anyone? You that vindictive of a human being?


25 NumberTwelve : Thanks a lot for that post, Tbar, great to see that there are some US guys here who still think "critical" about the Christian fundamental Cowboy and
26 NorCal : Did you stop to consider that only half of the nation voted for him before you made that sweeping generalization?
27 Cfalk : I said I was against torture. I clearly stated before that anything that leaves permanent physical traces (and death is extremely permanent) is tortu
28 4holer : I'd like to see the words "alleged" or "allegedly" in the original story. Not that I know it didn't happen as stated, but I'm not going to make that a
29 JamesAg96 : You nailed it with "so called"...Fox and Friends is not a news program...with regards to impressionable children...it is your job to raise kids, not
30 ME AVN FAN : - Hitler's NSDAP in 1933 did NOT get a majority. He had to start as chancellor of a coalition government, and ousted the partners of that coalition b
31 Falcon84 : Sorry, Charlie, I'm not apologizing to you for anything. I owe you nothing. I think we do have different interpretations, and I think some of what you
32 Cfalk : Granted, you don't OWE me anything. But a bit of civility would be nice on this forum, especially when you put forward a complete fabrication against
33 Falcon84 : A conservative asking for civility? I like that!!
34 Tbar220 : Exactly! It is uncomon. Which to me makes the people who ordered this, the people higher up, more guilty and should be held responsible. I've said th
35 Cfalk : Why is that? Liberals on this board seem to be the ones throwing the most insults. You don't see the head of the Republican party throwing bombs like
36 Post contains images Falcon84 : Charles, you support a political movement that is the anthesis of civility, yet you beg it from me. I find that incredibly funny.
37 Cfalk : I feel the same about your political movement. But what does that have to do with our behaviour on this board? I don't blame you for Dean or Moore's
38 ME AVN FAN : - the president of the USA, who is if I remember correctly, a member of the Republican Party, coined the phrase "not with us is against us". This in
39 Cfalk : Bush's comments were not targeted at Americans, however. They were targetted at countries that have a habit of staying on the sidelines in a conflict
40 7FTwinOtter : what, like the swiss?
41 Cfalk : Yep. We sold Oerlikon guns to both sides during WWII, I'm sorry to say.
42 Keesje : "tell us or w´ll beat your kid to dead" : no torture? Can we just get rid of the "isolated incidents" "individuals" "unconfirmed reports" "incorrect
43 Tbar220 : Oh, I don't know, how about the bomb which went something like... "Bring it on" Which is possibly the most irresponsible thing to say while American
44 Cfalk : Threatening to do it is just fine with me. Not our fault if the guy is too stupid to know that American soldiers would never actually do that. (For t
45 ANCFlyer : I have no problem with the authority to use/form this organization. Furthermore, I'm quite sure there is nothing in the authorization document that s
46 Tbar220 : Why not? The more and more evidence coming out that torture is widespread in jails and prisoner camps in Iraq, why wouldn't it be in writing? Somebod
47 PADSpot : Well, even though I came to the conclusion that you can't explain colors to a blind man, I can't resist to throw in my two cents worth ... You should
48 Cfalk : Being European, you are probably pretty confused about the term "Liberal" as used in the U.S. It is the complete opposite of the meaning of liberalis
49 Post contains links PADSpot : Well, I surfed a little bit through the German and English Wikipedia and found out that even there people aren't clear about what they really mean. W
50 ANCFlyer : I didn't say it couldn't happen - I just don't believe someone would be stupid enough to put it a memo signed by PotUS - not even a Top Secret memo.
51 PADSpot : Ok, you might know, that I often participate in such discussion as long as they are worth to contribute to. By and by I came to the conclusion that t
52 Post contains images ANCFlyer : PADSpot . . . . great perspective, right on. Having lived in Germany for 5 years I've been priviledged to the culture (Wiesbaden    ). I think it qu
53 Post contains images PADSpot : I spent some time at Auburn Hills, Mi right at the time when the troop deployment to the gulf region began. I was living with the family of a workmat
54 Tbar220 : I guess we disagree on this. Based on actions by this administration, I believe some of the stuff they've done goes beyond just incompetence and down
55 ANCFlyer : Only partially disagree my friend . . . somewhere, sometime, someone gave the go . . . of that I'm confident. Do I think it was PotUS? Nope - plausib
56 Tbar220 : Exactly. I think its unfair to the soldiers that nobody from higher up is being held responsible for the torture scandals. So far its only been soldi
57 Post contains images ANCFlyer : You have missed nothing . . . It's always the peon that takes the fall . . . the highest ranking person punished - if you can call it that, thus far
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