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Bush's Education Reforms May Be Working  
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16939 posts, RR: 48
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4198655

"The National Assessment of Educational Progress has been periodically testing a representative sample of 9-, 13- and 17-year-olds since the early 1970s. This year's report contained two striking results. The first is that America's nine-year-olds posted their best scores in reading and maths since the tests were introduced (in 1971 in reading and 1973 in maths). The second is that the gap between white students and minorities is narrowing. The nine-year-olds who made the biggest gains of all were blacks, traditionally the most educationally deprived group in American society."

"Thirteen- and 17-year-olds may not have shown as much improvement as nine-year-olds. But that is precisely because reformers have focused their energies on the earlier grades."




E pur si muove -Galileo
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1499 times:

Looking through the data at http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/ltt/results2004/, what worries me is the performance of 17 year-olds. The news from 9 year-olds is nice, but it is the 17 year-olds who are about to enter the work force, or about to enter a career track through university. These results aren't so good.

Are there still any public schools who adhere to that stupid idea of eliminating grades etc.?

Charles

[Edited 2005-08-09 09:48:25]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12037 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1475 times:
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There's always different slants that can be put on any set of numbers. You could argue that over a period of 24 years (1980-2004), the results of the Age 9 group have only improved by <2% while Age 13 and Age 17 groups are totally flat.

If in 6 year's time, all three groups show a significant upturn, then you might be able to claim that George "Is our children learning" Bush has had an affect.

Lies, damned lies and statistics!



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1458 times:

Maverick, our new PR guy for George Bush on Anet.



User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1450 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Maverick, our new PR guy for George Bush on Anet.

Ironic from you Falcon  Smile

How about:

Falcon84, a reminder that he has been, is, and will be our Michael Moore speaker for us on A.net. Always there to present one side of a coin, the one that doesn't favor Bush.



Don't get pissed at me, I'm just yackin...




-NWA742


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1446 times:

ROTFL. I'm nothing like Michael Moore, NWA742. You think Moore takes the view on Hiroshima, or Hugo Chavez that I do. I think you confuse me with
dearly departed Rsmith.  Smile

I won't get pissed at you-I'll just ridicule you, fair enough?  Big grin


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

This post is right up there with something like:

Iraqi Consumption of Snickers Bars up 200% since 2003: This year 2 Snickers Bars were eaten by Iraqis, 1 greater than in 2003. Bush lovers everywhere are excited that this shows that we are winning the war against terror.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

Well, Mav, can't swear by that in Alaska.

Our schools systems are struggling with overcrowding, underteaching and inadequate facilities. I'll be surprised if our teachers aren't on strike by this time next week - at least in ANC.

I watched my daughter in the Anchorage School system, 4th grade two years ago, with 33 rugrats in the class. The teacher was really squared away, but was hampered by out of date texts, inadequate classroom facilities, inadequate material. Not to mention her salary 25% less than comparable sized city school districts.

She moved to Cedar Rapids Iowa and started attending the Colony School District on the south side of CR. When I was visiting in May 2005, I spent two days at school with her (quite a feat for me as I despise children of all types anywhere). I was thoroughly impressed.

So I wouldn't use such a broad brush to paint this picture as I assure you it isn't a consistent picture.


User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

This is true, ANC. The school system here locally in CLW is getting better...they are building new schools, adding new teachers, and with the new/remodeled schools come better learning facilities/environments. However, as a whole, the model of education in FL sucks, the "FCAT" test just leads to teachers educating students just to pass the test, and not teaching them with a broad brush. Jeb at his finest.


This is the Last Stop.
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16939 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
Are there still any public schools who adhere to that stupid idea of eliminating grades etc.?

No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

A quick look at the statistical analysis of these data does suggest that all three of these numbers are real trends (i.e. outside the 0.95 CI) rather than just variance associated with random chance. The two younger groups have improved, and the older group has declined.

Causation, however, is another matter despite the implication in the thread title. Unfortunately these data have not been collected in a way that allows for any controlled quantitative test. Cause and effect cannot be accurately established without control samples and mitigation for confounding variables.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12037 posts, RR: 47
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1382 times:
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Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 10):
The two younger groups have improved, and the older group has declined.

I don't see how you can say the middle group has improved.

It is one point higher than in 1994, but still below the 1992 figure. I'd say the differences are statistically too small to be able to claim a trend.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1374 times:

"No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly."
--Uhh...care to explain that one?

As someone in the field, I know first-hand that there is a lot of crying and wailing and gnashing of teeth in regards to "No Child Left Behind." It has become a convenient way for administrators to deflect criticism from themselves when difficult decisions have to be made...it's always NCLB and/or George Bush. A good 70% of teachers I have come across are blind Democrat partisans, and will jump right on this bandwagon. What they forget is,besides the fact that Ole Uncle Tedward wrote and sponsored the legislation, Algore had an education plan very similar and, unlike the current system of "schools in need of assistance" and such, we would have seen the feds take over many, many schools in many, many districts (sometimes entire districts) across the country under that regime.

Now, what I have seen since NCLB came into effect, besides the blame game and an elevation of the funding/lack thereof fights that have been going on since the federal government began to intervene in state-run schools, is promising. Schools are being forced to examine themselves closely, look at real data, and make decisions that address those weaknesses. Part of why your Cedar Rapids example shows such a difference is because the State of Iowa has had a system of school improvement plans for years...and local control unlike any other state in the Union.

School improvement plans are tied directly to target areas, currently reading and math, and, this year, science (finally!). In larger districts, individual buildings have to address their issues as they relate to the main district issues. Teachers (the supposedly unaccountable ones) have to come up with what is called a "career development plan" in which they must document how they are going to improve their skills in order to meet those building/district/state/national goals....everything builds. In Iowa, this plan must be reviewed every three years and progress towards those goals must be demonstrated. There are also a set of 42 criteria that a teacher must document compliance with along with that career development plan. We, the unaccountable, must do all of this on our own time and, if it involves some sort of university work, our own pockets. Rather than a state designed test, as in Florida, Iowa continues to use the ITBS test, which has the only real, long-term set of data regarding student progress, to measure achievement. I have seen first hand, if the data is bad, and adequate improvement is not made, even after improvement plans, the English department or the math department is in for a personnel shakeup.

Another big complaint about NCLB is licensing requirements. Imagine this...evil old Bush thinks that you should be trained in and licensed in the area in which you teach...age level, ability level and subject area. Schools can still hire people on emergency certificates in shortage areas. However, those people can not stay on if they do not earn the required credentials within a 2 or 3 year period. So, gone are the guys with whistles around their necks drawing up football plays while you sit and do meaningless worksheets in social studies class. Gone are the ones who couldn't get hired in their own subject areas (because they suck, quite frankly), but get to live out their lives being ineffective in a special education classroom.

Funding? Tons of money (can't find the actual figure quoted by the education department) sits unclaimed in Washington because many states don't want the responsibilities associated with taking the money. Of course they would like to go back to the days of giant chunks of money with no strings attached for schools. Of course state level politicians would like more federal money...then they can continue to cut property taxes. Yes, some teachers are leaving..."die" rather than "adapt". But, as unpleasant as things may seem, schools are being forced to wake up to reality and get things moving. Buying a different textbook doesn't cut it anymore...research-supported programs actually shown to improve student performance must be implemented. That forces some veteran teachers to cut off the autopilot. The good ones were the ones adapting all along, and have no problem with this. The others should have been real estate agents or insurance salesmen to begin with.

In short, there seems to be a lot more focus on student achievement and improvement, rather than "how are we going to fill up this inservice day." I think that is a good thing, myself. Now, to see real progress, we should check in 8 years or so the progress of those who are now 9, when they are 17, to see if there are any significant changes. It's too early right now. I predict that, along the lines of the long-running ITBS, we will see some improvement, but nothing earth shaking. In fact, ITBS has shown a steady increase over the decades, even as the test has developed and more complex content has been included, and even as we went through this "education crisis" which the numbers do not bear out, and even as we went through various school improvement fads.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1372 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 11):
I don't see how you can say the middle group has improved.

It is one point higher than in 1994, but still below the 1992 figure. I'd say the differences are statistically too small to be able to claim a trend.

I'm saying that because the 2004 data point is above the range of values for the mean for the data between 1971 and 1999. My statement applies for the entire range of data, not just the last few years.

The 95% confidence interval (CI) for the mean (257.5) in this case is 256.4744 to 258.5256. Any value outside that range is likely to be a real difference as opposed to a random variance. The 2004 data point (259) is above that range.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1365 times:

One other thing to consider is that the nine year olds in 1971 are not the same group as the nine year olds in 1975. So, when schools compare this year's 8th grade scores to last year's 8th grade scores, is there really improvement or decline? They are two different groups. Different groups are better than others. For example, 2 years ago, our school showed huge 8th grade improvement over the previous year, and a huge decline the next year. We were comparing three groups...one that was average (ability-wise), one that was way above average and a third that was made up of 45% qualifying for special education. Now, taking that last group, which was reported as a decline in scores, when we compare that group's scores to its own scores the previous 3 years, they showed a much larger upswing in scores than the high ability group did over that same period. Should we be comparing groups to other groups, or should we be tracking groups over the years to see if they are improving? Well, under NCLB we are comparing different groups, which I think is flawed.


Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineGreyhound From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1026 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1362 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Our schools systems are struggling with overcrowding, underteaching and inadequate facilities.

Welcome to alot of the lower 48 states ANC... In case of emergency, the underfunded and overcrowded signs are located here, there and over there.

Seriously I know what you mean though... Our schools in AZ (before and after I left) had the same problem. Teachers get left in the dust because they do what the can with few resources that skrink year after year. And they do it in older facilities most of the time that are furnaces in the summer and freezers in the winter. Then the school districts have to cut more funds so more teachers get the ax. Then class size goes up, and teachers have to teach more, to more kids, with less resources. It's a shame.



29th, Let's Go!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16939 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks ago) and read 1346 times:

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
"No but it's national policy to remove any and all accountability among teachers...which is just about as silly."
--Uhh...care to explain that one?

Sounds like you know exactly what I mean:

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
A good 70% of teachers I have come across are blind Democrat partisans, and will jump right on this bandwagon



Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
Imagine this...evil old Bush thinks that you should be trained in and licensed in the area in which you teach



Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 12):
Of course they would like to go back to the days of giant chunks of money with no strings attached for schools.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1330 times:

Impressive... now can you tell me exactly what a 9 year old has to learn to do average?

User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

The problem is culture rather than money. If parents did a better job raising their kids rather than let them waste their lives playing video games and eating Doritos and getting obese then mabye they would do better in school. Of course parents feel comfortable blaming the schools and goverment, nobody likes to take responsibily for their own stupidity.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineB744F From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

Honestly, what child actually listens to their parents demands for watching TV, movies, video games, junk food, etc? The kids and parents all need to be educated and society needs to do a better job of putting these companies that take advantage of these situations in check, instead of playing the blame game on the parents who in their kids eyes have no authority.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

many parents work and still do a fine job raising their kids. So your excuse is invalid



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Maverick...I'm sorry, but, NO, you did not explain how removing accountability from teachers is national policy. If there is some far left group who wants to throw $$$ after $$$ in the schools with no accountability, then you sound to be part of the far right group which likes to label all teachers as lazy, good for nothings who do everything possible to avoid accountability...as a member of either fringe group, I see no difference between the two. Teacher/public school hating is popular in some Republican circles, but it is ill-informed and ignorant. Read some of what Thomas Jefferson wrote about the need for educating the public.

Now, holiding teachers and their livelihoods accountable to some test scores which may or may not be valid...if that is what you are talking about...then, HELL YES people in education are going to want to avoid that. Why should teachers be held accountable for that which they have little control over? If a kid skips 3 days of school on testing week, is not fed breakfast regularly, is allowed to roam the streets until 3 AM, take drugs, has been affected by drugs taken by parents, etc., etc., etc....is their classroom experience all that affects their test scores and their achievement in school?

B744F...don't delude yourself. In families in which kids are free to do as they please, both parents are not toiling away to put food on the table. A house like that (with two hard working parents) has a work ethic...I know, I lived in one. We sure as hell went to bed when we were supposed to, did homework, weren't allowed to play video games except on Fridays and Saturdays, etc. Most of the time, when the opposite is true, there is some sort of other dysfunction, drug abuse being chief among them. It is amazing to me to see how many electronic gadgets these kids and their parents have, when they are on free and reduced lunch programs or are not required to pay for field trips. It all boils down to priorities. I have seen dirt poor Mexican and Vietnamese immigrant children working their arses off, doing their HW in Spanish/Vietnamese and then translating it into English to turn it in with parents who work double shifts at meat packing plants or credit card payment processing centers, while their white American-born counterparts do what their lazy, welfare collecting parents do...NOTHING. When it comes down to it, a lot of this accountability stuff ends up being holding teachers accountable for the crap lives some parents provide their children.

edited for clarity

[Edited 2005-08-09 22:36:10]


Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Most of the time both parents are so busy working to put food on the table they don't have time to run a concentration camp of a house where they tell their kids exactly what they should and should not do.

 redflag  I assure you, if the child is reared properly from the start, not when they begin to present issues, then this will not be a problem. Do you have any experience in that arena? I'm asking because without a frame of reference your input is bogus.

Quoting B744F (Reply 19):
Honestly, what child actually listens to their parents demands for watching TV, movies, video games, junk food, etc?

My daughter. There are rules; there are consequences for violation thereof. Nothing corporal - simple restriction of liberties (quick call the frickin' ACLU). It's a very effective method - and has been practiced since she was very young. No means no, she understands that clearly. She knows right from wrong, and has no problem calling the  redflag  (Like her Dad) when it is necessary.

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 21):
When it comes down to it, a lot of this accountability stuff ends up being holding teachers accountable for the crap lives some parents provide their children.

I concur. If a lot of parents would pull their heads out of rectal defilade and do their job of parenting the child all the time many issues faced today would disappear.


User currently offlineKiwiNanday From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Dear MaverickM11,

I don't give a sh*t that Bush's education reforms may be working! Why, might you ask? Because our school and public works system is still underfunded, and it gets less money every year! Our schools aren't getting the money they need, so i don't give a f*cking sh*t about President Bush's education plan. Why? Because he promised to lower taxes, but lower taxes = less money for cops, firefighters, etc. So don't lower taxes, we NEED taxes! How else do we assure that we are safe, and getting a proper education?

Signed,
Kiwi, and every other member of an underfunded school system


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16939 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 21):
you did not explain how removing accountability from teachers is national policy.

What are you talking about? You said 70% of teachers blindly jump on the Democrat bandwagon which in lockstep with the teachers unions want ever-more money with ever-fewer strings (read accountability) attached. It's not national policy, but if the teachers union had its way, it *would* be national policy--throw money at education until it (inevitably never) improves with no accountability or incentive/disincentive for progress....and when that doesn't work, request more money.

[Edited 2005-08-09 23:44:53]


E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Post contains images TedTAce : Calling Bush "an education preisdent" is like me saying any of the following: I have the biggest penis on a.net I have slept with every female A.nette
26 Texan : Not in Texas. A good portion of teachers here are Republicans, which surprised the hell out of me. True, there are still a lot of Democratic teachers
27 Post contains images NWA742 : Well you do bring up a very valid point, but now that Randy is departed, there's gotta be somebody to take his spot, so don't get too close! BTW, wha
28 Post contains images MaverickM11 : I think you basically just told everyone on a.net that you're a virgin with a small penis, whether true or not.
29 Post contains images TedTAce : At least there is a sense of humor about it
30 StevenUhl777 : or..."figures don't lie, but liars figure" (general quote, not directed at anyone in this thread)
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