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Seven Steps To Withdraw From Iraq  
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

From http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance52.html


1. Announce to Iraq that our invasion was a horrible mistake, as was our intervention in the region for the last fifty years. Tell Iraq that we intend to withdraw every American soldier as soon as possible. Apologize for the tens of thousands of Iraqis that were killed by our bullets, bombs, or sanctions.

2. Stop all killing, bombing, patrols, arrests, imprisonments, and interrogations. Maintain a defensive position until exiting the country.

3. Perform the logistics necessary to leave the country. Tell the troops to start packing.

4. Apologize to our troops for sending them to Iraq, and especially our wounded. Apologize to the families of all our soldiers killed in Iraq. Release from confinement all U.S. soldiers imprisoned for refusing to fight, like Sgt. Kevin Benderman.

5. Announce to every country that was a member of our "coalition," and especially to Great Britain, that they made a horrible mistake in following our lead in invading Iraq. Tell them that they should immediately withdraw all their forces from Iraq. Let them know that we intend to withdraw as soon as possible and that if they choose to remain in Iraq then they do so without our protection. The United States should also apologize to every country that it demonized for not supporting our invasion of Iraq.

6. Announce to Iraq that there will be no future military interventions or interference with the government of the country. If the government of Iraq wants to hire former members of the U.S. military to train their military and police forces or contractors to rebuild the country then that is their business. No U.S. troops will be stationed in Iraq to guard Halliburton employees. Americans who work in Iraq will do so at their own risk. Offer to purchase as much oil as Iraq can supply to give the country funds to rebuild its infrastructure.

7. Use every available truck, plane, and ship to get the troops out. Squad by squad, platoon by platoon, company by company, battalion by battalion, squadron by squadron, brigade by brigade, division by division, corps by corps – it doesn’t matter, just get the troops out.



Why not? This seems like a reasonable plan to me, one that would ensure the safety of our troops and get them out. It requires a considerable amount of humility on the part of our national government, however; humility that it and Bush both lack, unfortunately. It would leave Iraq in a mess, but it's already a mess. Iraqis already don't have security, dependable power, clean water, or universally available electricity or gasoline.



http://www.msstate.edu/web/media/detail.php?id=2987

http://www.ur.msstate.edu/news/stories/pix/soldiersb.jpg?6374

During a home football game, three of MSU's returning Iraqi veterans, two of whom are amputees, will be honored during our traditional patriotic show halftime that the Famous Maroon Band performs.

http://www.msstate.edu/org/band/msuflag.JPG

We owe them more than our temporary gratitude. It's time to stop the killing, both of the 1800+ and thousands more casualties on our side, as the aggressors, and of the untold numbers of Iraqi deaths and casualties. This abominable war that never should've happened needs to end, immediately. I think that the above plan is a reasonable one that could actually work. Too bad that Bush, Congress, and so many big-government worshipping Americans have too much hubris to admit their terrible mistakes.

[Edited 2005-08-11 07:45:00]

134 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2339 times:





Hasn't this shit been beaten to death? There really is more to life than bitching about Bush and Iraq.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

A 12-Step Program might be more appropriate.

Mark


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29698 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

You should title this thread "Seven Steps for destroying America's international standing"

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
Release from confinement all U.S. soldiers imprisoned for refusing to fight, like Sgt. Kevin Benderman.

Is that that numnutz that deserted to Canada....Did they kick him out of their country yet? Him and that other deserter. And no, he should not be released, he committed a crime by not doing a job that he volunteered to take.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4355 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2323 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):


You should title this thread "Seven Steps for destroying America's international standing"

Been published already... Never supported war in Iraq, but I cant say this seven step plan is the right way to go either.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

This is what the original post SHOULD say.

-Phil



1. Announce to Iraq that our invasion was a horrible mistake, and give them back Saddam Hussein to pick up where he left off. Apologize for the tens of thousands of Iraqis that were killed by reinstating the public torture and abuse on women that they so rightly deserve to practice. How rude of is to interfere with such ritualistic religious ceremonies!

2. Stop all killing, because murder is turned off with the flick of a switch and if the US leaves, all arab extremists will immediately stop disliking the United States and will take up new hobbies like throwing rocks at women buried up to their neck.

3. Perform the logistics necessary to leave the country. Tell the troops to start packing. Begin a recycling program to collect our empty beer cans. As much as they loved being there, it's time to go!

4. Apologize to our troops for sending them to Iraq, freeing oppressed people was the completely wrong thing to do. What were we thinking?! All those years of liberals calling us heartless and demanding that we start helping other people in the world and we thought that removing one of the world's most ruthless dictators would be a good move. Silly us. Our bad!

5. Announce to every country that was a member of our "coalition," and especially to Great Britain, that they made a horrible mistake in following our lead in invading Iraq. Tell them "Madja look!" and that they should immediately withdraw all their forces from Iraq, because every country loves to follow what the US does and they are all much more perfect than us. Let them know that if they remain in Iraq then they do so without our protection, Gatorade and Mars Bars. The US should also apologize to every country that it demonized for not supporting our invasion of Iraq, even though they ALL demonized us, years after we stepped in to save THEIR ass, too.

6. Announce to Iraq that there will be no future military interventions, and that we will leave their public and brutally violent executions to themselves. We will give Saddam two brand new sons (that we so wrongly killed) and make sure they are just as kind in their rape and sexual abuse that they inflicted on so many in their mansions over the past few decades. Americans who work in Iraq will do so at their own risk and will notbe afforded the sameprotection that Americans in hostile areas get in every other corner of the world. See? We love to fuck over our own people too! Offer to purchase as much oil as Iraq can, because those people running Arabia's oil are dirt poor and could use some money.

7. Use every available truck, plane, and ship to get the troops out. Mail them rafts and floaties and make them row across the ocean. Squad by squad, just get the troops out, it's not like there's a war going on!

[Edited 2005-08-11 09:11:28]


Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

I don't think it's about the troops that are in Iraq. The troops are only half the problem, and pulling them out and saying it's a horrible mistake is a cowardish and irresponsible act. You can't beat a country and every piece of infrastructure, healthcare and education it has to pieces and then say "mea culpa" and run away.

When Iraq was free, the coalition troops were the last thing it needed. Now, they're essential in keeping the country from turning into a potential danger towards all the Middle Eastern countries, and the whole world. At least until the coalition countries have built everything up again (and that's gonna take a long, long while).


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29698 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 5):
There appeared to be some typos in the original post. I corrected them below.

-Phil

trust me, the typo's where not the problem with those suggestions.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Thanks for those corrections Phil, the whole thing makes so much more sense to me now.. What a great idea!!

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

MD-90, bravo, I agree  thumbsup 

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
You should title this thread "Seven Steps for destroying America's international standing"

I disagree. I think our warmongering federal government, mainly led by Bush, cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice, in cahoots with a lickspittle, spineless Congress, has already done that.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 6):
Now, they're essential in keeping the country from turning into a potential danger towards all the Middle Eastern countries, and the whole world.

Gee, a problem that the EXACT SAME FORCES created.



American troops have no business defending other countries, anyway. The Department of DEFENSE is supposed to defend the American Republic, not the American Empire.


User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 10):
American troops have no business defending other countries, anyway. The Department of DEFENSE is supposed to defend the American Republic, not the American Empire.

Yet if we NEVER came to the aid of other nations in need, you'd be the first one to complain that the US is cold and doesn't care about anyone but themselves, huh?

You'll deny, it, but you'll take any opportunity to complain about a Republican or conservative government.



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 6):
When Iraq was free, the coalition troops were the last thing it needed.

LOL. When was it free? 1919 for about 2 weeks?


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 10):
Gee, a problem that the EXACT SAME FORCES created.

Indeed, when the troops entered, they committed themselves to be there until the situation is actually stable.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
LOL. When was it free? 1919 for about 2 weeks?

Of course it's a matter of terminology, but what I had in mind when I said "free" was the period in time when Iraq was independent, and was not occupied by foreign forces.


User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

WOW. MD-90, I feel very sad for them guys who lost their legs. How could we ever say sorry enough ? Using the patriotism and bravery of our soldiers for greed is treason. You would think America would have learned something from Vietnam.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineBigPhilNYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2273 times:

How do we make the veterans feel better?

By telling them that the reason they ost their limbs was a mistake. OOPSIE!

Yeah, great fucking move.



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2242 times:
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DC10guy....you'd know about treason, huh?

MD-90.....Put the koolade down.

Your idols suggestions are nothing but drivel designed to incite the rabble (i.e. you) into making inflammatory statements based on nothing more than a desire to bring back isolationism and ignorance.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
Apologize for the tens of thousands of Iraqis that were killed by our bullets, bombs, or sanctions.

On one level, maybe for the war, but the sanctions? Those were UN-mandated, dude, and were caused by Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in '90. No apoligies there, ever, for that one.

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
4. Apologize to our troops for sending them to Iraq

That's a non-starter, if ever I've heard one.

Quoting MD-90 (Thread starter):
5. Announce to every country that was a member of our "coalition," and especially to Great Britain, that they made a horrible mistake in following our lead in invading Iraq.

That's not up to us to decide-each individual nation has to determine if it was a mistake, not be dictated to from Washington.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 1):
Hasn't this shit been beaten to death? There really is more to life than bitching about Bush and Iraq.

Isn't there more to life than just defending him everytime someone is found disagreeing with him. You're there in an instant with our bottle of perfume. Maybe you should realize that not everyone adores this guy.

What MD-90 proposes is NOT what is needed. I think we should have INCREASED our troop strength there, so that we can secure the nation that we invaded from these insurgents we allowed in. We need more security there, so that we can effectively train an Iraqi police and self-defense force.

If we just abandon Iraq now, without the ability to defend or police itself, it's like throwing a newborn gazelle next to a lion's den-that's a recipe for disaster. Do that and Iran will swallow it up in less than two years.

We owe a debt of honor to the Iraqi people, who's nation we unjustifiably invaded, to make the best of the situation, and give them a legitimate chance to make it on their own, without U.S. troops, without a thug like Saddam, and without having to worry about Iran invading it. We owe a debt of honor to those Americans who have fallen, and their families, to see this through, no matter how wrong-headed our illustrious leader was in starting this ill-gotten conflict, so that they would not have died for nothing.

We turn tail and run now, we leave Iraq defenseless, and 1900 fine Americans would have died for absolutely nothing.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

With apologies to Mr Lew Rockwell, I don't think that we can get out of Iraq.

We're basically stuck there - for the long haul.

So, we may as well try and make the best of a rotten situation.

New responsible leadership in the United States that doesn't lie to us - and the world - about the Iraqi situation would be a good place to start. I don't care if the new regime in the US come 2008 is led by the GOP or the Dems. Just a White House consisting of honorable men and women who are straight shooters, intelligent, and able to command respect in the world. Our current leadership has no credibility left whatsoever.


User currently offlineNonRevKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 4):
"Seven Steps for destroying America's international standing"

...Written and performed by George W. Bush.

Quoting BigPhilNYC (Reply 15):
By telling them that the reason they ost their limbs was a mistake. OOPSIE!

Well, the truth could go a long way. At least it would clear up any doubts in their minds.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
We owe a debt of honor to the Iraqi people, who's nation we unjustifiably invaded, to make the best of the situation, and give them a legitimate chance to make it on their own, without U.S. troops, without a thug like Saddam, and without having to worry about Iran invading it. We owe a debt of honor to those Americans who have fallen, and their families, to see this through, no matter how wrong-headed our illustrious leader was in starting this ill-gotten conflict, so that they would not have died for nothing.

Bingo. I'd love to hear Bush and his inner circle admit they made a mistake, (it'll never happen) because it's the truth, and get rightfully brought to justice. We do however need to finish the job we've committed ourselves to. Leaving Iraq in the shape it is now would just make things worse.

B


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

BigPhilNYC - terrific post.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
MD-90.....Put the koolade down.

Too late, DL021, I think he's filled the MSU Pool with it and has been swimming in there waaaaaay to frickin' long.

More LewFuckwell.com  redflag  redflag { redflag .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Isn't there more to life than just defending him everytime someone is found disagreeing with him. You're there in an instant with our bottle of perfume. Maybe you should realize that not everyone adores this guy.

I'll be the first to agree Falcon that everyone is entitled to their A-Net opinion, I'd also be the first to agree that opinions should occasionally be backed up with viable, intelligent, cohesive sources . . . certainly you can agree LewFuckwell is far from viable, cohesive or intelligent.

MD-90s allegiance to this nutjob is nothing short of that given by the no-life TV watchers of televangelist - pretty damn sad . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
I think we should have INCREASED our troop strength there

Thanks to Dumsfeld, remember, "Let's do it on the cheap". Further, remember Shinseki, "Beware the twelve division strategy with a ten division Army".

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
If we just abandon Iraq now, without the ability to defend or police itself, it's like throwing a newborn gazelle next to a lion's den-that's a recipe for disaster.

 checkmark 

Great post Falcon . . .


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1716 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Thanks to Dumsfeld, remember, "Let's do it on the cheap".

…and who’s responsible for keeping this guy in his job? Donald Rumsfeld has failed to competently perform his duties, on this I think you and I agree, and yet he’s still there. Why is that? Is it okay for the President to keep people in critical positions who are not doing their jobs? At what point do we hold the President responsible for continuing to employ Rumsfeld?

This “stay the course” stuff is all fine and well unless it happens that we are about to crash into a big fucking iceberg. Maybe the Captain should consider deviating from the almighty course so that doesn’t happen. Maybe the Captain should consider shit-canning the navigator who plotted that course in the first place.

If I had subordinates who continually failed to get results, my boss wouldn’t hold them responsible for that. She would hold me responsible. She would fire me if I didn’t change my ways.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2189 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 21):

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
Thanks to Dumsfeld, remember, "Let's do it on the cheap".

…and who’s responsible for keeping this guy in his job?

He's got a point there, ANC. The buck stops with Bush, not Rummy.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 21):
…and who’s responsible for keeping this guy in his job? Donald Rumsfeld has failed to competently perform his duties, on this I think you and I agree, and yet he’s still there. Why is that? Is it okay for the President to keep people in critical positions who are not doing their jobs? At what point do we hold the President responsible for continuing to employ Rumsfeld?

I already have Bravo . . . several months ago, during/after the AbuGhraib  redflag  where I made specific mention that Bush should have FIRED that idiot - along with his SecState from Birmingham, AL.

I'd look up the thread and post it here, but I suspect you know my posts well enough to take my word for it.

Next question?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
He's got a point there, ANC. The buck stops with Bush, not Rummy.

See my above comments my friend.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Isn't there more to life than just defending him everytime someone is found disagreeing with him.

Defending who? I didn't say anywhere in my post if Iraq was right or wrong.. I am just sick of hearing about it, especially from mental midgets who think lew rockwell is god, and the war was over only oil. I am past giving a shit. We are there, we have to finish what we started.

I don't really give a shit who is in charge, my response would be the same.


25 Jacobin777 : why? This is current events.....
26 ME AVN FAN : between 1958 and 1979, more or less at least, primarily in the way of having been an independent state, and in the 70ies even a fairly prosperous one
27 Jaysit : Let me be the devils's advocate and ask why Iraq should even be one nation? It's a wholly artificial construct. Left to its own devices, the Kurds wou
28 MaverickM11 : Step 8. Bend over and let Osama Bin Laden f*(k you with a SCUD warhead.
29 Mrniji : Is there any nation that is not "An Imagined Community" in the B. Anderson sense? Take India, take the entire African Continent... maybe the concept
30 1aMLA : Well the Bush started it so let him finish it, the only f**k up is that the worlds economy is suffering beacause of him. But I have to say that i have
31 Post contains images B757300 : Oh how nice. More dribble from the barking moonbat known as LewCrockwell.
32 11Bravo : I think your hypothetical “solution” here is the most likely outcome whether we want it to happen that way or not. I think the sectarian elements
33 Jaysit : Actually the chickens have been roosting at home since 2003 squawking the loudest in favor of the war.
34 Dan-Air : A few items are missing from Phil's list: 8. Immediately return all WMD stockpiles to Saddam's control, in particular those "around Baghdad and south
35 TedTAce : There is one, VERY nice thing about this thread. The absence of B744F and RSmith. I think we will break MD-90 Eventually.
36 Psa53 : There is only one famous word to say about your article. NUTS!!!
37 Psa53 : I have a special guest- This is being turned over to Majed.He is son of a Iraq general under Saddam. He is 19.He has enlisted into US army. Majed visi
38 MD-90 : That is a bunch of bull. I am not a Democrat or a liberal, but I oppose pro-big government worship no matter which party someone supports. I see the
39 Dc10guy : Interesting that none of the rightwing chicken hawks can say anything about the guys who lost their legs. I'll like for them to look them guys straigh
40 QR332 : Such as constant bombings and assassinations and political problems with Syria including closing the border, which hurt the country's economy? Peace
41 AGM114L : I say my 3-step program works better; 1. Nuke 'em 2. Hang out until the radio activity gets to acceptable levels 3. Suck it dry of the black stuff
42 QR332 : Heres my one step program for you, buddy: Shove that statement right up your behind!
43 Post contains images Falcon84 : My 1 step plan-send you over to Iraq to fight, so we don't have to listen to such crap. Now, that's fair, isn't it? Thanks for continuing the arrogan
44 AGM114L : Well, I already spent 18 months over there and I'm going again in June so I'm glad at least someone's plan is working out. Take a joke people.
45 ANCFlyer : Kudos to you for the 18 months you've spent In-Country. If, however, I were your CSM, I'd bitch slap you Mr. Warrant Officer for your comment above.
46 Post contains images Falcon84 : Indicate it's a joke, friend, and no one will ream you in your caboose, got it? What you said was clearly offensive to even a lot of Americans, and i
47 QR332 : Your just a natural comedian, aren't you? Hilarious... with soldiers like you, its no wonder the Iraqis don't respect the US forces. Nuking a country
48 Falcon84 : QR, you and I don't agree much, but on this one, we're of one mind. For someone who has served in Iraq, to even allegedly JOKE about something so idio
49 AGM114L : Oh please, I could go on all night on what I really think about Iraq, but frankly I don't want to and even then I'd get bitched out by all the armcha
50 Falcon84 : It wasn't appropriate, soldier, to say what you said before. And you only respect those Americans who served? Who pays your salary, fella?
51 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Perhaps thats the tack you should have taken in the first place. I think you would have found most of us here agreeing with you - myself included. I'
52 AGM114L : Back on the original topic, I don't think there will ever be a complete withdrawal of US forces. I bet there will always be semi-permanent military ba
53 Falcon84 : Why should they be! We invaded their nation, over a bogus set of intel reports-which the present occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania won't admit, and has t
54 AGM114L : I'm not saying there was any WMD's over there or not, but its asinine to think that those NBC stockpiles couldn't have easily been hidden in the dese
55 MD-90 : wah wah what a crybaby Ditto. Who ever would've thought that a soldiers tell tasteless jokes. What a fricking revelation.
56 Falcon84 : 1. There wern't any WMD. That's a fact. 2. They aren't hidden there, so it's a moot point. We went to war-and over 1800 of your comrades have died ov
57 AGM114L : Finnally someone not dishing out a counciling statement. Fortunately the spit-shine, D&C loving, policically correct, don't ask don't tell bullshit t
58 Falcon84 : Or a candidate for sainthood? Watched on Nightline, I think it was the other night, how the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is being quietly ignored, becuase
59 AGM114L : Personally I don't care if there were any WMDs out there or not. But quit acting like it would take an almighty bona-fide mircle to hid them. The val
60 AGM114L : Ok I agree with you on this one. Gays pay taxes and are citizens too and have right to defend thier country like anyone else. I'd advise them to keep
61 Allstarflyer : Seven Steps To Withdraw From Iraq 1. Create more hybrid and alternative fuel engines, thus dimishing desire to suck oil from the area. 2. Recognize th
62 11Bravo : Yeah,...who needs that honor and integrity stuff anyway. What a bunch of pussies.
63 AGM114L : Hey don't get me wrong, I believe honor, integrity, and the rest of the Army Values are important but when people are full of crap if they think this
64 11Bravo : I guess this just makes me one of those old school NCOs from the ‘80s, but I would suggest to you that the Army should absolutely revolve around Ho
65 GQfluffy : Yes, I do. And, I believe the Kurds believe he did as well. I know you are about the same age I am, but surely you remember the Iran=Iraq war and wha
66 Jaysit : It's really pretty astonish how these Cons think. Maybe someone should tell this dumbass GOP Senator, that a pilot isn't thinking about sex when he's
67 Stall : The Pentagon is still searching for this WMD so if you could be kind enough to give them direction they will greatly appreciate. So Iraq Air Force ha
68 Post contains images ANCFlyer : What's the matter, can't handle the heat? Perhaps had you had a few more counselling's from your betters you'd realize that although a lot of us shar
69 Post contains images Falcon84 : Personally-I DO! That's the reason your big boss said we went to war over-why he sent you over there-why 1800 Americans have died fighting over there
70 ME AVN FAN : - just hope that Mr al-Takriti is sufficiently grateful to the USA. Had he been toppled in a decent clean coup d'etat, he now would no longer be aliv
71 Post contains links and images DL021 : Well, I've stayed pretty much out of this one, but I see that once again people are assuming that it's "fact" that WMD's will not be found, or that th
72 Post contains links Dan-Air : Did you even bother to read the article you linked to? Third paragraph from the end: Officials said the seized chemicals do not appear to be linked t
73 Klaus : It should also be noted that the article linked to by DL021 says "Early tests of chemicals seized at a suspected insurgent hideout in northern Iraq in
74 GQfluffy : He basically stated that Saddam NEVER had ANY WMDs. He was wrong. I did not say because he had chemical weapons in the 80's justifies us being there
75 MD-90 : Big deal, could've been some sacks of nitrogen fertilizer. They've had how many years to search for them, and NOTHING has been found.....? And you kn
76 11Bravo : Clearly you and I just see some of this stuff differently Ian. Just to clarify my position, I was opposed to this war from the beginning because I fe
77 Post contains images GQfluffy : I agree, the whole UAV theory is OUT THERE. One question I do have, is where exactly did Iran get it's plutonium? And why has it surfaced only recent
78 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Interestingly enough GQ, CNN reports it's Pakistani Plutonium Wonder when that will be substantiated or refuted??? And by whom???
79 Klaus : In Viet Nam the US forces used huge amounts of chemical weapons ("Agent Orange" and Napalm). Not pretty. Not at all.
80 11Bravo : Do you have a link for that? I'm not doubting it, I just haven't heard the story before. I believe Russia had agreed to supply Iran with fuel grade u
81 Allstarflyer : I can see that one, Falcon. OK, we stay and help them take a good shot at making democracy last. And DL021, I think we've already accomplished someth
82 GQfluffy : Ok, I'm an idiot. Forgot all about Agent Orange. However, Napalm is not a WMD. Napalm is essentially congealed gasoline. fluffy
83 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Here's the only link I've found thus far - MSNBC - and this states it's Uranium . .. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8219801/ I know the report I saw was
84 Post contains images Klaus : I didn´t say that... Yeah, probably not in the closer meaning of the word. Really nasty stuff nevertheless...
85 Falcon84 : Ian-IT'S A LOAD OF CRAP! Now, is that more clear? We've been there over two freaking years, and somehow, you still think they'll be found. They're no
86 Allstarflyer : Falcon84, I'm just curious - if Bush had given the reason that we were going after Saddam because he was promising money to families of Palestinian su
87 AGM114L : People are making it sound like its impossible to hide a couple of warheads and some misc. equipment in a huge desert with months of preperation.
88 Falcon84 : I'd have been against it, becuase it was no threat to our national security. Point is this: Colin Powell's presentation to the UN was ALL about WMD.
89 Klaus : It is in fact very difficult to make an entire weapon program just go away like that, especially if you´re attempting to ensure secrecy even beyond
90 DL021 : danair"Quoting DL021 (Reply 71): Oh, and to the doubters....they just found another cache of arms and chemicals in Iraq....the weapons had been cached
91 Post contains images Scbriml : Which international standing would that be then?
92 Stall : From what the Pentagon and the White House were saying Iraq was an immediate threat. It was a vast program, a vast WMD stockpile. Remember that UN ha
93 DL021 : Now you are exaggerating. They said that intelligence indicated, and that we could not take the chance. Do you think you'd be willing to take a chance
94 Falcon84 : Well, they were wrong, yet our president doesn't have the decency even to admit that-he just ignores it,as you do, Ian. That's 'Fraidy cat talk, Ian.
95 DL021 : It's not "fraidy cat" talk to be concerned about what someone is doing when all the indicators are that he's doing something that can and will hurt yo
96 11Bravo : That's just nonsense, plain and simple. “All the indicators” Ian?. That is an absurd proposition. There were very few, if any, indicators that Ir
97 Falcon84 : 1. The itelligence was wrong. Weather our intel services just sucked the big one or it was cooked-it was wrong. 2. Past history is not a valid reason
98 Post contains links MD-90 : A fellow soldier told me the other day, "show me a terrorist nowadays that we didn't help create here in Iraq." Perhaps you think we are making lives
99 Cfalk : What an ignorant statement. As if terrorists did not exist before March 2003. Charles
100 Post contains images SRQCrosscheck : One of the most famous pictures ever taken. Any American old enough to remember the Vietnam War probably remembers this picture: AMEN!
101 SRQCrosscheck : Clearly, he was refering to terrorists in Iraq. Stop trying to create your own not-so-impressive repartees.[Edited 2005-08-17 08:30:21]
102 Falcon84 : And stop being ignorant of the fact the the U.S. invasion created the terrorism going on in Iraq today-oh, and another 41 people killed today in terr
103 Stall : This administration made a mistake over the WMD but they have never formally admitted it. They were either incompetent or they tricked the citizens i
104 DL021 : 11B....I call to your attention, with all respect, the facts: - that the USS Stark was attacked in the Gulf "by accident" by Iraqi Mirage's firing Exo
105 Stall : Wait !!!! US fought in Kuwait for their national interets ? I thought the US fought in Kuwait to liberate Kuwaiti peolple Evidences please ! Not a di
106 Falcon84 : Bush was the FORMER president by then, DL021. But be that as it may, you're saying for things that Iraq did 10 years earlier, at least, the war was j
107 DL021 : Falcon....our shooting down of the Iranian A-300, tragic as it was, had some bearing on the Iraqi actions. If anything they probably sent us a thank y
108 Post contains images TPASXM787 : Wow...this is the first time I have opened this thread...here's just a couple of ideas from one who voted for Gerogie boy -I was willing to buy Bush's
109 MD-90 : So what? It wasn't all that long ago when Israel attacked and sank the USS Liberty. Charles, that's from a soldier's blog, someone who's actually in
110 TERRA : Mmmmmmmmmm.......... interesting thread! Reading some of the above just proves the ignorance of the US people as to what is going on out here. The US
111 ANCFlyer : Terra, you've successfully ridiculed everything/everyone in this thread with your post, but I see nothing of a solution to any issue or a rebuttal to
112 Iakobos : What you fail to see, even after 2.5 years of interest in the matter, is that they do not want democracy. There is no job to finish because there is
113 MD-90 : Dude, that's very well travelled for an American. Sadly, Bush, the neocons, and Congress sure act like they believe it.
114 Post contains images DL021 : Iakobos..... There are many who do, and they are willing to fight for it. Mon frere, you are a cynic!
115 Falcon84 : You can wait. I've already come to the conclusion that this has NOT, and never will be, worth all the American blood shed.
116 Post contains images Cfalk : I think that Terra's post is probably the most refreshing post here in a while, because it is no partisan. After all the knifethrowing, his post is l
117 TERRA : ANCFlyer Well, firstly i don't consider myself an expert and only by sharing views can we begin to understand the bigger picture here. It is a huge me
118 Iakobos : Well brother, if calling a dung-hole a septic pit is cynism, I probably qualify for the adjective. (Mom doing well ?) Wrong, your admin says so, PR s
119 Post contains links ANCFlyer : Not I. You've likely got a better perspective than most . . . Yup, can't count how many times I said that in other posts . . . In fact some are . . .
120 Cfalk : Here is a list of people who will have lost their lives for nothing, if the U.S. cuts and runs away from Iraq. Wouldn't you rather their sacrifice mea
121 Falcon84 : Too late. It's already happened Charles. They were sent to war over false pretenses, and it wasn't to protect our freedom, or the American way of lif
122 Cfalk : You're living in the past. You can't wind back the clock and go back to the way things were in 2002. Look at the future. Look at Vietnam. That was a
123 Falcon84 : Too bad for you. You're just not man enough to admit that this war was fought over something that didn't even exist; that this broke, puny, helpless
124 Falcon84 : Btw, Charles, I think you're a good guy, and are smart, even though we don't agree on much. It's not personal, this is something I've become very pass
125 Cfalk : Pointless arguement. What do we do now, from where we are now? Pointless arguement. What do we do now, from where we are now? That's not a done thing
126 DL021 : I do actually believe that the consensus is, regardless of feelings concerning reason and justification, that we are going to have to finish this job.
127 MD-90 : Thankfully, none of that is assured. It could happen, but I think it's doubtful, personally. Finish WHAT job? Despite what America's bipartisan polit
128 DL021 : I think that we can help them create a democracy that works for them. You don't have to be Christian to be democratic. Ask about a billion Indians.. M
129 Cfalk : Like Japan, right?
130 MD-90 : You know quite well that Japan is different. They have untold centuries of history as a nation, and they are incredibly more cohesive as a people tha
131 Falcon84 : Well, with an invading army in your nation, you think you're NOT going to vote? Let's see what kind of vote-who they vote for-when we're gone. I stil
132 Cfalk : Just a last point - I think people make a lot more about Bush's "vacation" than it deserves. A U.S. president's "vacation" is not like you going to C
133 Falcon84 : It DOES, Charles, give a sense that he doesn't give a damn, though. If he goes to his ranch for a week or so, I don't see the problem-but for over a m
134 MD-90 : Presidents should take more vacations. That's one reason why Reagan was at least a passably okay president: more vacations = less government intrusion
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