Bofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1368 times:
A high US military delegation with General John Abizaid (US central command) have been on a visit to Turkmenistan and Tajikistan to discuss the move of the US airbase from Uzbekistan.
This two countries is both without a democratic system.
Saparmurat Nijazov, President in Turkmenistan, is especially knowned for his brutal way to rule the country.
President Bush have many times talked about that it is important with freedom and democracy for the world and especially in the middle east. But this seems to have no impact of the US policy for Central Asia...
(USA also have a air base in Kirgizistan and the gvmt there is under pressure from Russia and China to close it).
SW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1276 times:
Central Asia is strongly influenced by China and Russia. Joint military exercises by the nations recently have acted to intimidate Central Asia into doing what they (China and Russia) want. This is a big reason (if not the main reason) why the Uzbek government kicked the US out of the country. Sure, we want a base in Central Asia because of Afghanistan, however, I think it may be difficult to get a definite location for a long (over 5 years) period of time, as China and Russia may continue to intimidate whatever nation allows the US to set up base there, be it Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, or whoever else.
Bofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1255 times:
Quoting SW733 (Reply 6): I think it may be difficult to get a definite location for a long (over 5 years) period of time, as China and Russia may continue to intimidate whatever nation allows the US to set up base there, be it Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, or whoever else.
I just want to ask if it is fair to say that Bush acts in another way that he say in his speech? About democracy and freedom. Turkmenistan and Tajikistan is far away from that and Bush wants to cooperate with them...
SW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6265 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1250 times:
Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7): just want to ask if it is fair to say that Bush acts in another way that he say in his speech? About democracy and freedom. Turkmenistan and Tajikistan is far away from that and Bush wants to cooperate with them...
Don't get me started on Bush...I'd agree with you that, yes, he is kind of a hyprocrite on this topic. I won't get into anything else, or else the Republicans on this forum may come after me!
Soyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1207 times:
#1, #3, #5 - I see no reason why Bofredrik shouldn't post the thread. Saudis didn't fly aircraft into buildings in my country, yet I care about eradicating Al Qaeda. Maybe I, and the rest of the world, shouldn't care about that?
I would also expect none of you to make a comment in the future on anything that does or doesn't happen outside the borders of the US.
Quoting SW733 (Reply 6): Joint military exercises by the nations recently have acted to intimidate Central Asia into doing what they (China and Russia) want. This is a big reason (if not the main reason) why the Uzbek government kicked the US out of the country.
These assertions are wrong.
Firstly, Russia does not need to intimidate Central Asia into doing anything. It was Russia which 'allowed' the US to but bases in Central Asia in the first place, and it was the SCO which asked the US for a firm date of the removal of said bases -- it was a joint statement from all 6 countries. Not to mention that relations with Kazakhstan are extremely close, Kyrgyzstan invited Russia to open the Khant airbase, Russian troops were stationed in Tajikistan to assist with the Islamic insurgency (Rakhmonov wanted them to stay on, Putin wanted to withdraw, Rakhmonov again asked them to stay and offered Russia permanent bases, Putin accepted).
China is much the same, except they don't have a military presence.
The exercises between Russia and China on the Chinese coast have nothing to do with intimidating Central Asia. If it was, they would have held them in the Barnaul or Urumqi regions close to Central Asia, and not on the coast of China. And it should not be forgotten that China has in the past few years held military exercises with Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan, and also Russia, and these were held in Central Asia itself.
One of the major reasons for the Russian involvement was to be able to demonstrate to the Chinese the latest military hardware -- Russia is the major supplier of newer technology and they obviously want this to continue into the future.
One of the major reasons for the Chinese involvement was to demonstrate to Taiwan that they best not be 'declaring' their independence in the future.
And then there is the joint, and the main, reason. There is a Chinese-Russian 'alliance'. The US is pushing ahead to strengthen their alliance with Japan. China and Russia, remembering that they were previously enemies, are forging this alliance (of sorts). The exercises show the US that their dream of a unipolar world is just that -- a dream. The US may want to exert it's influence in Central Asia and East Asia, but they can't simply push their way in and think that Russia and China isn't just going to step aside and let it happen -- I am not talking about getting into wars or anything like that, but it is a strategic balance.
It should be noted that several countries were invited to China to observe the exercises, include the other 4 SCO members, Mongolia, Pakistan, India and Iran. The US was not invited. Note that 2 enemies were present -- China invited Pakistan, Russia invited India -- that in itself it quite a 'feat'.
What is happening in Central Asia is a 'revival' of the Tournament of Shadows, but with a 21st century 'twist', and different players.
Now to why Uzbekistan kicked out the US. It had nothing to do with Russia and/or China. It had to do with the incident in Andizhan earlier in the year. The US dismissed Uzbekistan's claims that the catalyst was Islamic extremism, and that those killed were innocent protestors (protestors who broke into a prison and let 4,000 prisoners free, and protestors who were protesting whilst armed with machine guns). Whilst Karimov's government is largely to blame for Andizhan, they were not totally responsible, yet the US put the entire blame onto Karimov. Even after the harsh words, Karimov still did not demand the closure of the US base and the expelling of it's troops. The last straw for Karimov was a few weeks ago when in the middle of the night approximately 450 "refugees" were removed from Kyrgyzstan and flown to Romania -- the operation was 'international' in nature, but it was planned and organised by the US. Karimov is adamant that some of those 'refugees' who were moved to Romania were members of the Islamic insurgency in Uzbekistan.
As to the actual topic..............................
I have no problem with democracy, although the type of democracy I want to see has yet to be realised anywhere on the planet. I also have no problem with any nation wanting to promote their cause of democracy, socialism, communism, or whatever. Whatever floats their boat.
But you are right, it is hyprocritical of any nation to proclaim itself to be the champion for a particular cause, when they either 1) are already in partnership with nations who do not fulfill those requirements of what they are the self proclaimed champion for, or 2) are willing to enter into partnership with nations who do not fulfill those requirements.
I wouldn't direct this too much towards Tajikistan, because they have had a civil war, and do have a real threat of an Islamic insurgency (doesn't help being on the border with Afghanistan). They are slowly, but surely, opening up, and the population are gaining back some of their civil rights. Turkmenistan on the other hand......how any country could deal with Niyazov is absolutely beyond me.............