TedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1661 times:
I started the thread Just What We Need, More Catholics: (by TedTAce Sep 1 2005 in Non Aviation)
To Rag on the Pope for calling for yet more overpopulation of the planet only to be flamed by APPARENTLY ignorant people stating only that Europe has a LACK of population problem. These people just repeated the same 'fact' without any rhyme or reason. I'm not saying that Euorpe's population is or is not a good thing, (though I would think having more space for one's self would be nice) but I would like to escape my 'typical ignorant' American shell for a little bit and get an understanding of somthing other then Katrina.
SO:
I'm just asking if there IS a underpopulation issue in Europe?
If so; why is a lack of population a problem? And what are the governments of Europe doing to 'solve' the problem vis-a-vis immigration?
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5229 posts, RR: 24 Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1655 times:
There is no such thing as "underpopulation" problem in Europe. There's a problem with the demographic structure of the population and its implicationson ratio between people in working age and others, such as childeren and especially the elderly.
TedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1645 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 1): There's a problem with the demographic structure of the population and its implicationson ratio between people in working age and others, such as childeren and especially the elderly.
What you said seems good, but can you please elaborate? An example of what you are saying would help too
Mexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 2795 posts, RR: 35 Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1642 times:
EZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4873 posts, RR: 33 Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1635 times:
Italy I believe is/was having this "problem".
people are for some reason or another, having less children. I suspect economical situation is a possible cause. These days, young couples can't afford to have a kid. In some cities, the tendendcy is that young adults (mid 20's) are staying as long as they can in their parents' house since rent or buying an appt. is just too expensive. If to that you add the cost of mainaining a kid, it's just very hard. Just my guess here
DfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 675 posts, RR: 54 Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1634 times:
>> I'm just asking if there IS a underpopulation issue in Europe?
Like L410 says, an increasingly large portion of Europe's (and Japan, SK also) are choosing not to have children. The problem being, not underpopulation, but a demographic shift to older and older median ages. Why is another question, but the implications are economic and societal stagnation. More old people to young people, and conversly, a smaller workforce burdened with the rest of the nation.
Think about all those high-tech industrialized nations turning into Florida. You see the problem.
>> And what are the governments of Europe doing to 'solve' the problem vis-a-vis immigration?
Well really, there isn't a whole lot the governments can do. "I order you to have children," just doesn't fly.
Many people are turning away from having children simply because they don't want them. This is why the Catholic church (in which family, sex, and child raising are central) wants to raise the awarness of this issue. Reasons cited for the decreased popularity of child rearing are (what could be described as) self-centeredness and narcisism. For example, I don't want to make career sacrafices, I don't want to do 3am feedings, I don't want to make commitments.
The underlying issues are a little more complex than that, but you can see the reasons why fewer people are having children. In addition to the problems deliniated by the Pope, I personally feel that many are depriving themselves of a very rewarding experience for what may be shallow personal feelings (or fears) of raising a family.
The HEART of the problem is akin to our Social Security problem but for slightly diferent reasons. The Europeans have a lof ot social progrms for the elderly that are not able to be supported by the relatively insignificant # of tax generating workers.
I have ideas about this, but I want to see if my initial reaction is correct and see if there are any angles I'm missing from future posters.
USAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1627 times:
For specific statistics on the topic, I highly recommend taking a look at the 2005 World Population Data Sheet, available here...we are using this in my population geography course and it might be interesting to take a look at the Europe section...
PROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5396 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1612 times:
It's not necessarily that women don't want to have children any more. Various social and economic factors are leading many women to delay their childbearing. Unfortunately, biology hasn't kept up with society and economics - a woman's fertility declines with age just as it did generations ago.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1873 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1584 times:
2004 was the first year for a long time (20 years?) in Austria where there were more births than deaths.
I reckon the average number of kids per couple is 1.7~1.8.
But underpopulation is not the problem. The problem is the demographic distribution: the number of old people vs. the number young working people.
Regarding underpopulation alone, as far as I am concerned, walking down an empty street in the morning, watching all the concerts and events without being stepped over consistently, and being able to do whatever comes to your mind without having to consider that 1 million persons tought of the same thing just now, contributes to the amazing quality of life in this place, that doesn't compare to it's European neighbors (except maybe from the North). Unsurprisingly, Vienna tops the best-quality-of-life city list consistently (for countries, its Norway).
USAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 58 Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1579 times:
Quoting Kay (Reply 10): I reckon the average number of kids per couple is 1.7~1.8.
The average Austrian woman gives birth to 1.4 kids during her lifetime...
Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5229 posts, RR: 24 Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1572 times:
I did not have enough time to elaborate my earlier post because I was leaving for work. Here's an example:
Over here, there was a post-WW2 baby boom (probably as in many other places), which resulted in very numerous population segment of people in today's late 50s early 60s. Back then, family with 3 even 4 kids was nothing out of the unusual.
Then there was another baby boom around mid-1970s, which is my generation. However only 2 kids per family were the vast majority of cases, single-child family quite usual, 3 kids rare case, 4+ even more.
Now its turn for my generation to have children. The problem is that people, given the socioeconomic factors such as challenges of the transforming economy, new career oportunities, etc. tend to postpone having kids to their very late 20s and often 30s and once they decide to have them, it's usually one, two kids maximum. There's also the biological factor that many people have hard time having kids, due to increasing problems with fertility.
The implication for the economy, sustainability of pension systems are the following. As the post-WW2 generation enters into their retirement age, there's is still enough population in working age (aka taxpayers) to sufficient revenues for the pension system, welfare programs and others. However, the problem will be in next 25-35 years when my populous generation is about to become pensioners but there simply will be not enough people in working age providing revenues in taxes to keep the system running, because we had only 1 or 2 children (a couple having 2 kids is simple reproduction) and most likely they will do the same.
The problem is that those damn politicians know this for some 10 years, but they're too worried about their approval ratings to touch the unpopular issue of pension reform, comforting themselves there's still time. A**holes.
As far as Pope's preachings about having more kids are concerned, I would not have a single problem if this was done in Europe, where these would be either ignored or vast majority of people just being able to do the maths themselves and if not it would eveny help the society.
But if he goes to Africa and starts this usual Catholic BS about condoms, contraceptives and blah blah blah, where AIDS and poverty are just huge (AIDS causing other demographic anomalities such as that in Kenya the generation of todays 16-25 year olds will never become generation of 30-40 year olds) I think it's just criminal.
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6089 posts, RR: 43 Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1503 times:
Zero, flat or negative birth rates compounded with unchecked immigration, most notablt Muslim immigration, will change the very demographic composition of European population in two generations.
Heretofore in the history of civilization, the only means of doing that was through war and conquering.
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