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Affirmative Action/racial Preferencing  
User currently offlineKiss My L-1011 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

Like it? Hate it? I happen to dislike affirmative action/racial preferencing very strongly. I hate the idea of picking one person over another becuase of their race, sex, etc. so you don't get sued. Employers should pick the person that is best qualified for the job, not becuase they happen to be a minority. Call me conservative if you will, but I will never, EVER lower my standards so I don't get called "racist."

Hairyass, I could use some of your conservative thoughts here. Big grin

Regards,
Kiss My L-1011  Big thumbs up


20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirways1 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 986 times:

For a private company, the employer is paying the money, so they should be allowed to employ whoever they like, on whatever grounds they like.

User currently offlineKiss My L-1011 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 980 times:

Yes, I agree with you 100%!  Big thumbs up

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39854 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 987 times:

This is an old topic and thing s got pretty ugly here in the forums.

I cut in paste the entire argument for you to read over so you can see whare we all stand on this issue:

Topic: Affirmative Action Or Not?

Username: AgnusBymaster
Posted 2001-02-19 00:50:12 and read 281 times.
Being black, I feel that government still needs to get in on making things more equal. But, it could also be said that you gotta rise your way up. Like da blacks in this country and the latinos can't be expected to work up the social structure overnight.

Personally, I think Mr. Prez has got some bullsh*t plan. What do heck does affirmative access mean? Well, it means he don't want to action, but he just wants there to be no discrimination.


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Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 00:56:36 and read 239 times.
The premice behind Affirmative Action is good, but at the same time, someone receiving a job because of race, over someone who may be more qualified is not. Racism is still a huge problem in the U.S., even in 2001. Many people fail to realize this. I'm not a big supporter of Affirmative Action, but intil someone comes up with a better plan to deal with racism, in this case, in employment practices, I see it as a start.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AS737900
Posted 2001-02-19 01:13:22 and read 236 times.
Affirmative Action IS a racist policy, plain and clear.

"Oh, I'm sorry sir, but you are white, and although you are more than qualified there is a minority who also needs a chance at this opportunity, even though he is no where near as qualified as you. So we'll give it to him instead."

Ok, that's probably a little exagerrated (sp?), but you get the point...



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N863DA
Posted 2001-02-19 01:22:22 and read 230 times.
See any of the following films;

Ghosts of Mississippi
Men of Honor
A Time to Kill
Corrina Corrina

then tell me that Affirmative Action is not neccesary. It may be racism, but after year upon year of maltreatment, isn't it time we apologized in one form or another?

Some of you may realize that my opinions have changed recently. I grew up.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N312RC
Posted 2001-02-19 01:25:58 and read 228 times.
I dont want to have Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton or (god forbid) Geoffrey Fieger knocking at my door, but affirmative action is a racist policy. I agree with AS737900 in full. There is no way around it. It is a racist policy. Blacks should have to work just as hard as a whites.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 01:46:43 and read 237 times.
N312RC, Affirmative Action may be a "racist" policy, but even in 2001, Black Americans are still facing discrimination, in all aspects of life. Thats why policys and programs like Affirmative Action are needed. While you have a point with say a black person being hired because of his race, over a more deserving say white person, but what about the racist boss, who will hire a white person over a MORE qualified black person, just because he is black. That is the epitomy of a racist policy. The only thing is that it is not writin down anyware. Its just how ignotant this country still is. Oh, and Blacks do work as hard as white people. Don't stereotype.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N312RC
Posted 2001-02-19 01:53:52 and read 219 times.




Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 01:56:23 and read 215 times.
N312RC, you wouldn't happen to know David Duke would you?



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-19 02:52:27 and read 205 times.
No one should be denied space at school or a job because of racial quotas. If you want a job or a higher education: EARN IT!





Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 02:58:54 and read 199 times.
AC320, you, like N312RC fail to get it. Right now, deserving African-Americans are being denied jobs, and such because of the color of there skin. That is why Affirmative Action exists. N312RC rolled his eyes at the post I made, because 1.) he can't argue it. 2.) if he feels that Affirmative Action is a racist policy, then he knows his stance is racist as well, because black people have had to, and still have to fight discrimination even in every day facits of life, even in 2001. He, like much of Ameirca just don't want to admit it. He is coming off looking just as bad as Farakahn, or Al Sharpton.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N312RC
Posted 2001-02-19 03:02:04 and read 199 times.
I rolled my eyes at that because they are always complaining about discrimination. Maybe if they didnt, they would get farther.




Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: CactusA319
Posted 2001-02-19 03:12:57 and read 199 times.

Well all I have to say is its kind of hard to be as qualified as the white people when you are from a family that has not been able to ascend much on the social ladder because of racial discrimination. Although things are gradually getting better, our society is far from equal. Many minorities don't get a decent chance at a quality education because they come from a poor family and their family was poor because they couldn't get a job because they weren't white or they couldn't get a job because they weren't qualified enough because they couldn't get a decent education like a white person could due to discrimination or maybe because their parents couldn't achieve the same success as whites. It's all a vicious circle that has been going on for generations and needs to be put to an end. Granted many qualified whites are losing jobs to minorities who may or not be as qualified, but until the minorites can catch up in educatinon, skill, and relative wealth as the white people, we're just going to have to put up with affirmative action. You can't expect blacks/latinos or whatever to just work harder when you don't give them a chance to even work, you know what I mean. And yeah, African-Americans have their own internal issues to deal with but that's a whole 'nother post.





Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 03:25:46 and read 197 times.
N312RC, you rolled your eyes because "they", are always complaining of discrimination? Do not judge a whole race on a few so called leaders. Talking with you, I feel like I am talking to We're Nuts, because you are skirting the issues now. The issues that blacks have to face everyday. Discrimination is not dead in America.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N766AS
Posted 2001-02-19 03:36:05 and read 191 times.
If our so-called "free-market" economy worked the way it was supposed to, I think this would all resolve itself. Instead of government jumping in to save minorities from racist employers, which shouldn't have to happen, consumers should be learning which businesses/corporations/companies have racist hiring practices (which hundreds of organizations would leap to help) and boycott them accordingly.
Instead of racist quotas which the government has forced onto businesses, I believe that we should let the people--the consumer--decide what businesses fail. So, instead of making the racists hire people of all races, let them do whatever they want. When it becomes public that they are nasty racists (which wouldn't take long at all, taking into account the vigor of organizations such as the ACLU), the business will suffer in the pocketbook and has one of two options: shape up or ship out.

I would be more than glad to get more government out of our lives and let us make decisions for ourselves.

I don't know if all that makes sense to y'all, but I sure hope so...



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N766AS
Posted 2001-02-19 03:38:05 and read 186 times.
>Talking with you, I feel like I am talking to We're Nuts

Whoa.... hahahaha Just wait 'til WN joins in. hehehehe



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 03:40:01 and read 185 times.
N766AS, lol, I'm just waiting for the backlash on that one.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: N766AS
Posted 2001-02-19 03:45:13 and read 185 times.
Yeah, me too... but you gotta agree- thats how it SHOULD work.

Sigh...



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: FlyBoeing
Posted 2001-02-19 03:45:48 and read 183 times.
I don't know if someone's race automatically makes him predestined towards poverty. As a matter of fact, I reject that:

Consider, Blacks and Hispanics, that Asian-Americans have largely emigrated to the United States with even less than what Blacks started with. They benefited from nothing other than a predestination for hard work and education. Now they're the wealthiest racial minority in the U.S.

It's not because they're Asian- far from it- but because they choose work and sacrifice rather than government handouts and set-asides. That is the route to success in America: hard work. My parents worked hard to build successful medical practices. Now I will work hard too to do whatever it takes. I'll take care of them when they get old and I get matured. The Asian mentality links closely to the American dream- that your children will live better than you do.

Consider the success of other ethnic minorities in the U.S. Look at Germans, Swedes, Jews, Irish, and Scots. They were discriminated against. They got the crap land back when they emigrated to the colonies. They had the humiliation of seeing signs in storefronts "No Jews or Irish need Apply". Yet now they are not counted as underprivileged minorities. They chose to assimilate. They chose to become Americans, not Irish-Americans or Scottish-Americans

Why must we force an inevitable historical cycle? Why must we create inequality to remedy previous inequality? Why should the present white Americans pay for the sins of their fathers?

And don't give me that notion that Jews and Irish are white. I can tell the difference between a Jew and a Gentile, or a Scottish last name from an Irish last name easily. They're as different to me as black from white.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 03:58:06 and read 179 times.
N766AS: I do agree, it should work that way.

Fly Boeing: You cannot compare Asians and say Blacks. Remember Blacks were brought to this country as slaves. In 2001, while Blacks are "free", in todays society, there are still many people who see them as "slaves." Because of this racist, and terrible attitudes, even an incredibly hard working black, can be cut down in todays society. Also, when the Asians come to this country, there are several programs the government offers, such as loans to open up businesses and such. Thats why it seems like the Asians are beating the odds. But think about it...Where do most of these Asian businesses end up? In the ghetto. You don't tend to see an Asian corner store in upper class white America do you? Nope. Foreigners that come to America have lots of gov't programs that help them, while say blacks and hispanics don't.

As for white America "paying" for its fathers sins now, I agree with that to a point. 400 years of slavery cannot just be forgotten. It was slavery that lead to the depraved state blacks are in, as well as the attitudes that they are not equal to whites. Not to mention, those attitudes and racist policys still exsist on a large in America right now. We are not "paying" for the sins of the past, we are tying to right the terrible unjust that has been done in this country.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-19 15:26:37 and read 160 times.
KROC,

I fail to get it? I just don't agree with you, yours is not the only valid opinion, so don't try to dominate this thread with it. If African Americans are being denied jobs because of racial prejudices, its a problem for law enforcement, not a government poicy that helps one group by putting another down. I don't like this eye for an eye crap. Yes, slavery was a horrible injustice that should never have happened, but it did. I'm sure if the government thinks as hard as it did on defense issues during the Cold War, it can think up a more logical way "to right the terrible unjust that has been done in this country".




Topic: Kroc
Username: FlyBoeing
Posted 2001-02-19 16:37:47 and read 158 times.
Fly Boeing: You cannot compare Asians and say Blacks. Remember Blacks were brought to this country as slaves. In 2001, while Blacks are "free", in todays society, there are still many people who see them as "slaves."

I find that point hard to believe, since many people believe Asians to be "gooks" or "slants". Asians did come to this country as indentured servants to build the Trans-continental railroad, anyway!

Because of this racist, and terrible attitudes, even an incredibly hard working black, can be cut down in todays society.

I doubt this. The litigous atmosphere of the US means that anyone who failed to look on merit and instead looked on race would be sued up the wazoo

Also, when the Asians come to this country, there are several programs the government offers, such as loans to open up businesses and such. Thats why it seems like the Asians are beating the odds.

Yes, this may be true- although I highly doubt it- but it takes hard work to make good out of a business loan. The very fact that affirmative action- in this case, for immigrants- helps some rather than others ought to underscore my case that society ought to remove all sorts of preferential treatment.

But think about it...Where do most of these Asian businesses end up? In the ghetto. You don't tend to see an Asian corner store in upper class white America do you?

Tell that to Ching(I swear, that's his real name) , the guy who runs the Asian food center on Nassau street in tony upper-class Princeton, NJ. Tell that to every Chinese restaurant owner in New Hampshire. Tell that to all of the high tech startups that come from immigrants to Silicon Valley



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 17:35:40 and read 151 times.
AC320, your right on what said, well, pertaining to the cold war and such, but, law enforcement isn't gonna know about the black guy who lost out on a job, because the boss, or guy doing the hiring is racist. The reason why afirmative action has to exsist is becuase of hte left over sentiment that black people are not equal to whites, or that blacks should only be slaves. This still exsists today. Have you spent anytime in say Mississippi?, or Alabama?, or Georgia? I have, and its terrible down there, and that is wht Afirmative action is needed. You can't just blow off slavery as a terrible injustice, and leave it at that. The effects of slavery are still being felt by black people today!

Fly Boeing, ahhh, the computer world with Asians, I huge over sight on my part. And you nailed me. But look at it this way. Asian nations are in the technological race right along with America. Asians that are highly intelligent, and developing tomorrows technology, of course they can come to the U.S. and be put in a great position. In America, Blacks don't have that "headstart" type opprotunity to go on. As far as beign sued over racial discrimination and such....thats a rare deal. You see, first, a black has to make his way up the ladder, and over come racisim and bigotry just to be successfull, and then, they are in a position where they can possibly sue, if they face an injustice. But the kid who works his way out of hte ghetto in South Central L.A., avoids drugs, crime, gangs, goes to college, and graduates, when they go to get a job, and face discrimination because of htere skin color, there is very little they can do.





Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: Ikarus
Posted 2001-02-19 18:26:42 and read 146 times.
FlyBoeing:
How employable is a black person who has sued his own employer because of racist practices? My guess would be that he has no chance of ever getting another job again. Sueing you employer is not a good point on your CV.

N766AS:
A few weeks ago there was an interesting article in the Economist about a Southern States Fast Food Chain owner openly flying confederate flags and, if my memory serves me right, making politically incorrect statements. As a result, several supermarket chains took his ketchup off their shelves - ruining his revenues there. But on the other hand, his restaurants were frequented more often by loyal white supremacists. The market economy cannot regulate this alone - to ensure fairness government control is needed. The form that this government control takes is another matter entirely.

To all:
I am not American, so I should not really contribute, I guess, but: I think that many posts here are filled with cliches and stereotypes. Why are all Asians described as hard-working, and Afro-Americans as comparatively lazy (even though no one actually uses this word, but it is pretty clear from come of the posts that people think so)? To me it sounds as if some people need a dose of political correctness and fairness.



Topic: Oh Boy... [LONG]
Username: D L X
Posted 2001-02-19 18:57:10 and read 146 times.
Lots of BS on this thread. Some good points, and some good intentions, but...


Okay. So, as some of you may know, I am Black, and well educated. I have two degrees from a prestigious institute, and work for a very well known company. I'm saying this not because I'm trying to brag, but because I can say that even with my successes, I see minor racism fairly often. For instance, do you know how a Black person is treated at a ski shop? I'll tell you. We are not denied service but, we are served scantly, without going into much depth of the product. Instead, we are shown the least expensive option because it is assumed that if we are serious about buying, it must be the cheap one we're after.

Now, I've chosen a few quotes to address.

N776RC "... consumers should be learning which businesses/corporations/companies have racist hiring practices"
I strongly doubt this would do jack. Two examples: Texaco was accused of having racist hiring practices. Didn't hurt them one bit. This was mostly because (imo) people felt the racism charge was inaccurate. And then there's Nike. Not racism, but exploitation of the poor and young in other countries. Everyone knows Nike is exploiting children in Asia, but they're still the number one brand. Why? God only knows, but company practices are simply not on the minds of the consumer.

AS737900 "Oh, I'm sorry sir, but you are white, and although you are more than qualified there is a minority who also needs a chance at this opportunity, even though he is no where near as qualified as you. So we'll give it to him instead."
This is the common misnomer about A.A. In no situation is the black candidate "nowhere near as qualified" as the white candidate, and still get the contract. The truth is, the black and white candidates are near equal, and that allows the government to pick the black candidate to "diversify." Is this right? Read on.

N312RC "but affirmative action is a racist policy"
Absolutely true.
N312RC again: "Blacks should have to work just as hard as a whites."
But this shows you haven't actually met any Blacks up in Alaska. Truth is, to get to mainstream, Blacks have to work MUCH MUCH harder than whites, in general. Far fewer whites grow up in the inner cities where the money, and jobs, and education simply aren't there. So, to even suggest that Blacks don't work as hard as whites (and I really hope you're not saying that) speaks volumes about you.

Now related, here's where A.A. is REALLY unfair though. Blacks in the inner cities may get an affirmative act upon graduation from high school. Where's the help for the country folk? A.A. pretends like there are no poor whites that have for whatever reason been held down. (Yes, whites can be descriminated against, and held down too.)


AC320 "If you want a job or a higher education: EARN IT! "
Hmm. What if a person works their ASS off for 13 years and graduates valedictorian from their high school? What if this person kicked so much academic ass that there was no class in the school that could truly challenge them? There are plenty of Blacks in the inner cities so devout to getting out that they do work this hard. Do they not "deserve" a trip to Harvard, or other top schools after clearly working much harder than the average pre-Harvard hs student does? * (Actually, I have a comment on that too. read on.)



FlyBoeing "Asian-Americans have largely emigrated to the United States with even less than what Blacks started with. "
Patently false. Blacks brought to this country were purposefully kept clear of education, even reading. Would you like to explain to me how Asians coming here with no money have less than Blacks coming here, and being raised here with no education? (Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime.)

FlyBoeing again "Chinese restaurant owner in New Hampshire"
I just have to say that there is only one Chinese restaurant in New Hampshire that is truly mainstream/upper class. (Peking Tokyo. Note the "Tokyo" part. That's how they become "upper class.") This restaurant is the best Chinese/Japanese restaurant in the country, imo btw.

FlyBoeing a third time "Tell that to all of the high tech startups that come from immigrants to Silicon Valley"
Umm, how many of these startups are Asian owned? (None that I know of at least.) And, let's throw in Indians also. Where are these immigrants coming from? The two largest countries on the planet. Did you know that these two countries combined, India and China, have about a third of the world's population? So, what happens when you take say 50,000 people from these countries and let them come to the US to work? Let's say 25,000 work in the computer industry. Which 25,000 of the 2.2 Billion are you going to bring in? The very tops of the societies of course. These are people of privilege in their home countries, and are very well educated. And when they get here, they're still educated. This is a completely different situation from the Blacks, and even the Asians, of old.



So, where do I stand on this? Well, I'll write more next time, but leave you with this. Why do we wait 13 years before we help a minority out? This country lets minority children go through Kindergarten and 12 grades of inadequate schooling, and hope the colleges can suddenly fix it. Why not fix it before the minorities get behind?



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: Raddog2
Posted 2001-02-19 19:31:07 and read 143 times.
The suggestion by conservatives that African-Americans must all be lazy is so alien to my own experience working with African-American friends and colleagues that it is both offensive and laughable. Conservatives love to simplify and distort affirmative action into a competition between a "more qualified" white male and a "less qualified" minority, possibly also a female. The fact is that determination of qualification is rarely objective. It's not like you can rank two people on a "qualification scale" and assign them numbers. Let's take university admissions, for instance. Few academics actually think the "objective" measures like SAT scores and grades fully predict a student's potential contribution to the university community. That is even more true when you factor in social and economic factors. If an expense of $700 on a Kaplan course can increase your standardized test score by 200 -- isn't that in itself proof that SAT scores correlate more with money and social status than with innate intelligence or hard work? As a result, these "objective" measures can only very generally describe someone's potential qualifications. Therefore, someone with a 1300 SAT score is probably not "lazy" or "dumber" or "less qualified" than someone with a 1350 or even a 1400. So in the absence of a truly objective "qualification" scale, determination of admissions or who to hire become essentially subjective. And when these decisions are subjective, unfortunately personal prejudices of the decisionmaker come into play. Affirmative action doesn't dictate that decisionmakers take "less qualified" minorities. It simply creates a goal for companies or universities to have a diverse workplace/campus. So when decisions become subjective, the influences affecting decisionmakers aren't just personal prejudice, but also the goal of having diversity. The net result is that you don't have campuses and workplaces that are entirely white because the admissions/hiring committee likes to see people just like themselves.

And another point is that I don't get why conservative whites constantly rail against affirmative action when, particularly in college admissions, the net impact of alumni legacies, big donations from hopeful parents, and athlete admissions is probably much larger than affirmative action. Why aren't people complaining about how their son/daughter lost out to a less qualified, lazy child of an alumnus? Or a big donor? Or some lazy unqualified golf player who just happens to be demanded by the school golf team?

And finally, no, you can't compare Asian-Americans with African-Americans. The majority of Asian-Americans immigrating to this country are not poverty stricken refugees. The amount of resources it takes to get here from Asia and settle means that most Asian immigrants are coming here with significant resources, and many are college educated and even have advanced degrees. Those who ARE refugees often fare no better than any other poor minority groups. Of course there are success stories -- but there are also African-American and Latino-American success stories as well. To use Asian-Americans as an example to point out how "lazy" other minorities are is flawed and obnoxious.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-19 20:33:45 and read 134 times.
KROC,

Look at my profile, I live in Florida!

DLX:
"Hmm. What if a person works their ASS off for 13 years and graduates valedictorian from their high school? What if this person kicked so much academic ass that there was no class in the school that could truly challenge them? There are plenty of Blacks in the inner cities so devout to getting out that they do work this hard. Do they not "deserve" a trip to Harvard, or other top schools after clearly working much harder than the average pre-Harvard hs student does?"

-Well of course they deserve it! They earned it, and if their qualifications are in order, they'll get accepted. What are you trying to get at?



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-19 21:09:08 and read 127 times.
AC320...where in Florida? You see, Florida in the cities is a pretty decent place. Florida in the sticks is just like Mississippi. But anyway, if you live down there, then you know how bad racism is, don't you? I'm white, but my wife is black, and we spent time in Mississippi and GA, and there were times where not only was I affraid for my wife, but for me as well. Its sad, that the country is still like that in places. Its attitudes like that, that make affermative action needed in this country. D L X made outstanding points, and they are just about inarguable. As for your line...

>Well of course they deserve it! They earned it, and if their qualifications are in order, they'll get accepted. What are you trying to get at?

Do you believe that? Do you think it always works like that? You think somebody in the admisions office of Harvard, Yale, or U. of Mississippi might say, "well, this student has a great background and profile, but he is black..........", and in the end, that black person might lose out to someone else. The world is not as cut and dry as your statement, because if it was, we wouldn;t be having this discussion.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: FlyBoeing
Posted 2001-02-19 21:43:41 and read 123 times.
Perhaps some of you folks misunderstood what I was getting at. No, I'm not categorizing all blacks as lazy.

I simply believe that those who work hard ought to gain the rewards of what they do. In the US they do. The very rich in the US worked like hell to get where they got. Look at how doctors get to where they are. Look at how capitalists get to where they are. They take risks and hang it out on the line.

The notion I was trying to get at is that Asians have a habit for working like crazed beavers.

"Qualifications" of GPA, extracurriculars, and AP courses do reflect harder work. Getting a 4.3 GPA from Trenton Central High is not equivalent to getting a 3.0 GPA at the Lawrenceville School. And I don't think that race has anything to do with whether anyone had a chance to work hard.

Many of those on this board classify the Ivy League as an exclusive province of the rich. It isn't. Admissions committees do as a matter of fact respect that some students who haven't had prep school amenities haven't had the opportunity to take AP Physics.

The central theme that I was trying to get at is that the ludicrous notion of "race" doesn't matter in success. Background matters. Economic background matters. Race doesn't come into the equation.

Who cares whether the rich in this country happen to white and either Jews or Protestants? If they got that way through their own work and innovation, they so be it! They shouldn't be relieved of their hard earned money.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: L_188
Posted 2001-02-19 21:48:44 and read 119 times.
Affrimative Action had it's place where there was rampent discrimination....

But now we are questioning it, calling it racisist, because it doesn't put the abilities of the applicant first.......

The fact that this discussion on if it is needed is taking place, is actualy great sign we have grown up.......

My personal opinion is that it should stay on the books as a penalty but to impose it today is kind of like going after a fly with a 12lb sledgehammer. There are a lot more subtle and more effective ways to get the fly. And you don't tear up the table the fly is sitting on either.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: Raddog2
Posted 2001-02-19 22:29:56 and read 109 times.
>>The central theme that I was trying to get at is that the ludicrous notion of "race" doesn't matter in success. Background matters. Economic background matters. Race doesn't come into the equation.<<

If only this were true! In an ideal society, yes. Race shouldn't come into the equation. But race IS in the equation whether there is affirmative action or not. As long as employers have personal prejudices and employment choices have an element of subjectivity, there will be discrimination in hiring. Without motive to hire minorities, frankly, many employers won't. Affirmative action doesn't introduce race into the equation. It simply makes sure that the equation isn't skewed, as it always has been, in favor of whites.





Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-19 22:35:19 and read 105 times.
KROC,

Percent of black students at those schools you mentioned:

Harvard: 8%
Yale: 7%
U of M: 12%

So much for "well, this student has a great background and profile, but he is black..........". I stand by my statement. As for the rest, I'll answer later, because I have some work to do.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-20 03:05:14 and read 94 times.
AC320, because Yale has a whopping 7% black student population, hardly means there are fair recruiting procedures being followed. Please, tell me you have something more than that, because your numbers proved nothing.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-20 03:34:55 and read 84 times.
Actually, I would like to see you prove there are unfair admissions practices in place at these schools. These numbers show that yes, these schools do accept a significant number of blacks (at Yale, if there are 7,000 students which should be close to the actual figure, about 490 are black). This seems accurate for such a difficult school where straight A's and a 1600 SAT doesn't guarantee acceptance,and the quality of education many minorities are privy to in this country. Should you come up with concrete evidence of unfair recruiting procedures based on racial prejudices at these schools, then I'll accept your idea and gladly withdraw my statement. Remember, innocent until proven guilty.

By the way, despite not agreeing with you, I'm rather enjoying this debate and your opinions. As a result, you are the first to be added to my "respected users" list.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: KROC
Posted 2001-02-20 03:58:41 and read 79 times.
Without being a fly on the wall, there is noway I can prove that the schools in question have policy where deserving African-Americans are being denied admission due to there race, but on the other hand, it cannot be proved there isn't either. Saying approximatly 490 students of Yales 7,000 seems right, due to the strict academic nature of the addmissions, to me, proves nothing. I'm sure there are far more than 490 Minority applications received that meet Yale's acedemic guidlines. Now, I know an Ivy league school is far from cheap, which might be a reason why minorites aren't in a greater number, but financial reasons is a whole other post in here.

Also, just cause we have different view points doesn't mean I don't enjoy the discussions as well. It's nice to discuss things without people getting insulting.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: D L X
Posted 2001-02-20 05:44:25 and read 71 times.
The schools you mentioned are all Affirmative Action schools. That is exactly why there are 7%+ Blacks at these schools. These school compete for Black talent in order to stave off racism. They don't want to be known as "White Boy Schools" so, they try their damndest to get you to go. (I told Harvard no twice when courted.)

Sounds noble, right? Well, I would interject that A.A. often breeds racism amongst people who are not normally racist. When I arrived on campus, I could practically feel the eyes glaring at me thinking I only got there because of my pigmentation. When I've told non-Blacks where I went, on occasion I would get some comment about how their white friend didn't get in, hinting that he may be more qualified than me. So, without even knowing me, he had already judged me.


BTW, AC320, I think you may have misinterpreted what I was getting at which means I wasn't very clear. My apologies. This person who worked their ass off for 13 years lives in the inner city where academic opportunity is severely lacking. No APs, no pre-calculus. No advanced physics. However, this person takes the little opportunity given to him, and runs with it, tearing through each class like a firehose through kleenex. Does this person get into Harvard? Should this person get into Harvard? (This is not an easy question.)


I'll leave this post with something that may infuriate some, but it is fact. It is good that we can discuss the issue civilly. Really, it is. But, you must realize that A.A. here to stay, until the minority population says it is time to go. Your Congress and Executive will not touch the issue. White congressmen and senators recognize it as political suicide, even in the most conservative of states. Currently, Black congressmen and senators (are there any currently?) are full steam ahead for A.A. since it would very possibly mean political suicide for them as well! What it is going to take for a change is for someone to come up with a good alternative that is pleasing to all, and someone who has the cahones to speak up. Imo, this man is not named Jesse or Al.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: RyeFly
Posted 2001-02-20 10:27:21 and read 62 times.
Mmmm, interesting thread you all have going here, and for once fights arn't breaking out all over the place.

I for one believe that race should not be a factor in any situation but obviously it still is in some cases. Everyone knows that creativity and hard work is the key to success. Finding that niche is often difficult but I feel everyone has an equal chance in getting there. Have you ever meet a sucessful black person say they achieved success because they were black? What about a white person? No because they found something they were really good at and fought for it. In my industry (graphic design/multimedia) I have yet to see race be an issue. Most designers including me fight for freelance jobs on the side. In most cases if not all cases portfolio pieces are requested for viewing before being considered for the job. These days that is often done by email or by snail mail. So getting the job is often done without even seeing the client, and all they can judge about you is the quality of your work. I understand that I am in a unusual situation but the bottom line is I must be extreamly creative and work extreamly hard in order to be a cut above the rest.

Lets just look at celebrities for a second. Oprah or Academy Award winning Denzel Washington, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods are not where they are today simply because there was a lack of black people in the industry. They fought their way to the top, finding a niche that made them unique and very successful.

Well, you get the idea about my thoughts, Its late and I have to cut this short. Interesting subject however.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: AC320
Posted 2001-02-20 22:19:58 and read 47 times.
It's interesting that with all the racial mixing going on now, that the races will not clearly exist in about 50+ years. This is a conclusion that we came up with during a debate in US History. I look forward to that day when man is not defined by the colour of his skin.

Also, DLX, I do think there are black senators (Rosa Parks?).




Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: Hairyass
Posted 2001-02-20 23:10:47 and read 43 times.
I don't agree with it. It's just a bunch of liberal B/S to get blacks to support democratic candidates. It doesn't help the problem of raciscm and poverty.



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: Hole_courtney
Posted 2001-02-20 23:32:36 and read 39 times.
Why can't we all get along?

Seriously? Why does our country have to support laws that create division between people?

We think that we're helping them by "stopping" discrimination in the workplace. We're not stopping anything. What we're stopping is an employers right to do as he pleases. In some cases that may mean he won't hire a black person because he doesn't like black people. Folks, as much as I'm opposed to any form of Racism, where is it my place to tell this employer that he's wrong? I shouldn't judge people based on their beliefs. I don't agree with this employer, obviously, but I shouldn't be able to tell him how he should run his business.

Could it be an idea that these programs we have to intigrate people actually spurs more Racism? I mean, if you force someone to do anything, they're not going to like it. If someone is forced to hire somebody that they might not get along with, wouldn't that be counterproductive in the work place?

I mean, i want a world that doesn't see colour in skin, but let's face it: If we keep defining laws and such that make it such an issue, it will never go away. As long as we keep recognising the legitimacy of a skin colour, hatred towards it (by whomever) is always going to exist. There's no way that we can have a perfect society, but why should we keep making it worse by defining people by such mundane characteristics.

I want every person in the United States in the world to be looked upon by their character, and not anything having to do with skin colour, etc. I want this so badly, because It's sad to see any person discriminated against. I cannot support, however, the fact that we keep defining "groups" and making special laws for them. the Laws of this country apply to EVERYBODY. People act as though only white people are protected under law, which is obviously false. If someone is harassing you, you call the police and get them to help you, NO MATTER WHAT COLOUR OF SKIN YOU HAVE! If you want to get into college, you do it like you're supposed to, take the SAT, and make good grades. Why can't everybody do this? What do we have to make exceptions for people that CERTAIN PEOPLE deem different??????

live forever, hole_courtney



Topic: RE: Affirmative Action Or Not?
Username: D L X
Posted 2001-02-21 05:13:41 and read 27 times.
Hairyass: "I don't agree with it. It's just a bunch of liberal B/S to get blacks to support democratic candidates. It doesn't help the problem of raciscm [sic] and poverty."

please expound on why you believe this. Without saying your idea is good or bad, it's one thing to take a pot shot at an idea. It's a completely different thing to show that you have truly thought about the issue and can enter an enlightened discussion about it.

RyeFly: "Lets just look at celebrities for a second. Oprah or Academy Award winning Denzel Washington, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods are not where they are today simply because there was a lack of black people in the industry. They fought their way to the top, finding a niche that made them unique and very successful. "
Good for them, but their celebrity, as is the same for everyone else who is famous, shows they are not the usual. Did Oprah and Denzel work hard? Most definitely. What they have was certainly not just given to them. But, I would definitely say they had to work harder than their white counterparts. I'm sure they met producers many times that said "I don't mean to sound racist, but America doesn't want a Black talk show host. They want average, run-of-the-mill caucasian. That's something they can be comfortable with." MJ and Tiger Woods got there because of sheer athletic talent. I would add Chris Rock, Richard Pryor, and Bill Cosby to the list of black celebrities that have made it. It has been proven that sheer talent in athletics and comedy has been a route many Blacks have taken to get somewhere. But, until a straight-up education is available to all, these celebrities will remain few and far between. The mainstream will still be out of reach for the inner city Blacks.

I would also point out the racism that famous blacks receive as well. Could someone explain to me how Samuel L Jackson was nominated for Best Supporting Actor in Pulp Fiction when he clearly co-starred with John Travolta? But that's probably another subject, another thread.

So, to all, just keep these facts in mind when we think about how hard blacks work, or don't work.


PS, I checked it. There are currently no Black Senators.




This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.


======================


Understand?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaOwnsAll From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 971 times:

Well...I disagree with Affirmative action strongly. I am the farthest thing from racist, I absolutely hate racism.
Affirmative action hurts the more qualified candidates for the school or job and sometimes can hurt the company who hires the less qualified person. If all races are allowed the same education until college, then why would a college be compelled to pick a minority over a majority? If they have had the same education and one has done better, that person should get acceptance, no matter what they look like. Now, if a white person went to a private school and was smarter or more qualified than a black (or any other minority) who went to a public school, that is what the school vouchers will hopefully help. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but most whites in the U.S. have had Public schooling; just like the minorities. Comapanies and Colleges should be allowed to pick the more qualified applicant without being sued. Racism should not be fought at the cost of innocent people.
DeltaOwnsAll
DeltaOwnsAll


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 963 times:

That's one of the biggest problems with AA. Jobs and school admissions are a zero-sum game, so when one gets in, one doesn't. While making-up for past discrimination is a sincere purpose, one must remember that now you have a new victim to race-based admissions; some kid that had nothing to do with the past discrimination. So you are merely shifting the discrimination to others, not solving it. It just not right. None of it is. Black Americans have a real problem that need to be addressed. What I'd like to see more focus of this issue being put at the lower grades of elementary school. That's one area I think the Democrats are shorting minorities. School choice really needs to be looked at considering many black parents are in favor of it. Democrats claim they want more money poured in public schools for the sake of public school children when the people they are really trying to appaise on that issue is the Teachers' Unions. Look at the public vs. private schools in Wash. DC and compare graduation rates and spent funds per student ratios. You would be astonished at the figures. Then you will clearly see that dumping money into public schools does NOT automatically equate to graduating black children, but does equate to happy Unions.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 950 times:

AA is absolute bullshit. It punishes both the truly qualified applicant as well as the employer. Being "forced" to hire someone to avoid being labeled racist or to avoid federal persection (notice I did not say prosecution) is tantamont to living in a socialist country. Never will I support it and never will I abide by it either.

User currently offlineTupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 950 times:

Blacks should be protected from hiring discrimination through laws but then again, you have black folks claiming out there that the police are focusing on the search for Levy instead of the 2 black girls in Chicago because of racist views while ignoring that the circumstances surrounding Levy's disappearance make the case more urgent. Also, as a business owner, I would want to hire those that are competent regardless of skin color instead of hiring by quotas that the government is throwing at me.

I believe in some affirmative action but in these days with everyone shouting "RACIST!" at each other for everyday things I prefer not to support it for fear of being sued by someone of any skin color who I do not choose because I preferred to choose someone who is more competent.


User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 940 times:

Ok, in a perfect world we wouldn't need such things as Affirmative Action. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and I see no benefits of AA except in the course of hiring in public offices. (Government Institutions.)

In any private company it would be next to impossible in most cases to prove that one person was hired over another unless the individual concerned 'knew' either the other applicants or was verbally told 'why'.

I am a Uni graduate and hold a very responsible position. I am in the position where I need to hire people as support staff, which usually means well educated, well groomed, professional people.

As a smart individual I would instantly recognise the most suitable candidate - whether they be male, female, gay, straight, black, yellow or whatever. That is how it normally works. But my selection might not mean I am 'picking' the most qualified. I do personally take into account the persons personality - whether they have kids - all sorts of things that make me judge someone. Obviously there are some jobs out there that are not suitable to certain people.

On the other hand, let's say it wasn't me but someone very similar who held a predjudice against say asians. So no asians get hired. Er, it works both ways.

But how can a government enforce AA without setting up quota's for companies? Otherwise it's next to impossible to call someone on the race issue and prove it.

This AA policy is hot air and only seems designed to shut a few people up without looking at the real problems in minority communities. You are never going to stop discrimination in the workplace when hiring. Would you call a Vietnamese family who run a bakery racists because they only hire asians? Exactly.

One thing that grates on me is the WASP contingent that bitches and moans about this without suggesting alternatives. I love the cry babies who do the whole "I'm not racist" - why should I suffer? Suffer? Compared to who?

mb


User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 938 times:

You know where affirmative action hits you the hardest? When you're a rich kid from a hardcore prep school. You get a 1480 SAT and take nothing but AP courses for 2 years. You work your ass off and get a 3.5ish GPA. And kids from the same prep school with similarly rich parents - who happen to be black or Hispanic - manage to court offers from colleges like Williams and Duke. These kids are not academic achievers nor are they active in any organizations other than the minority awareness organizations.

Certain colleges - thankfully not in the Ivy League - cannot risk the public relations disaster that comes from accepting too many overqualified rich kids, and it becomes much worse for them if the kids are white or Asian. They HAVE to fill a quota to make themselves look diverse when students themselves self-segregate.

Diversity in colleges is total b.s. Latinos only hang out with Latinos at Dartmouth. Blacks only hang out with blacks. White guys stay in frats. Why bring in more minorities to hang out with their own kind?

What makes this even worse is that my family and I drove seven hours up to Hanover to visit Dartmouth College. We noticed that the College had made incredible efforts to recruit non white non Asians. They flew them up (no bus rides for these kids), they fed them for free, and they put them up in a better hotel than the one my parents and I had to PAY for. This shit gets me really friggin' mad.

And it becomes worse when you get into college. There are certain set-asides made for those who are on work-study programs. I applied for a job on campus here and was rejected because of the sweat of my father's brow. I even offered to work for free and without federal subsidy. No dice. Can't have rich kids working.

This makes me steaming mad. My father worked like a slave to get out of his tin shack in the Philippines and continues to work like a slave to keep me in college. Why should his hard work result in obstacles being thrown in front of his children?


User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 932 times:

hey mxoron - you say we should offer alternatives.. i say why? A level playing field means the government stays out of it. Everyone in this country has the same opportunities basically. Whether they choose to avail themselves of that and work hard to get ahead is up to them. I don't oppress anyone, I don't owe anyone anything. Period.


User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 933 times:

"Affirmative action" = Quotas/Set-asides = Just another euphemism for discrimination. The adage "Two wrongs don't make a right" is timeless. I suspect it's more about revenge than justice-- If we could physically bring the perpetrators of past discrimination to justice and try them, I'll be the first in line with a rope. Alas, these clods are long since dead and rotted away...ergo, some find satisfaction in tilting the playing field against those who share only the physiological similarities of said racists of yore. -- No citizen here ( US ) shall be denied equality of opportunity as it is immoral...But: Equality of results however, rely on the individual.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 913 times:

Unfortunately there is ample precedence of what the state of affairs would be if the government stayed out of the civil rights arena.

Historically we've had more than our share of stupid white males in positions of responsibility who got their jobs because of the preferential hiring practices of other stupid white males.

Besides, for all your claptrap about hiring practices at AA etc being biased against whites, I must add that AA's hiring practices are of its own initiative. The civil rights statutes establish very broad standards - most responsible private institutions go much further in establishing their own goals in terms of the racial and ethnic makeup of their labor force.

Lastly, private institutions are NOT - by the dictates of our Constitution - allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, ethnic origin, or gender. Thus, the contention of one of the postings on here that private companies should be allowed to hire anyone they so please thereby overriding Constitutional mandates, is a non-starter. Perhaps, its allowed in such bastions of civility as the Soviet Union, China, or apartheid-era South Africa, but not here.

In the end, the equal rights protection mandated in the US Constitution always trumps any right-wing garbage posted on these forums.


User currently offlineAn-225 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 3950 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 905 times:

Like Mx_5 Boy said - if we lived in a perfect world, we wouldn't need affirmative action. I completely agree with him. To Twotterwrench and others - try finding a good job when you just came into a country. If not for affirmative action, many people who I work with, maybe even including myself would be unemployed.


Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 897 times:

An-255 and Mx5_boy, its real easy to say "Well there's nothing better, so why not." But can you please explain how you can live with knowing you support a program that shuts deserving kids out? This ISN'T better than nothing, because it also has victims. If you say, I'd rather see white victims than minority victims, then I'll accept that as your rationing, but IMO, that is a very destructive rationale. If these kids were actually doing the discriminating, then I would reconsider my point of view, but they aren't. They are innocent. They don't have the power to oppress anyone. Ideally, we want zero victims, but AA does NOT move toward that, it merely changes who gets screwed and doesn't address the fact that people are getting screwed. Please address to us the fate of the kids that are getting screwed over by AA and not just who is benefitting from it.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 887 times:

Jetservice,

I don't agree with AA at all. As I said, it's nothing but hot air to shut up minorities. Being someone who has hired and fired (only once!) people before and I know the anti-discrimination law's (in this country - oz - but it would be similar) like the back of my hand.

So far I could have single handedly (if applicants knew why I rejected them) been charged with discriminatory practice in just about every hiring I have ever done.

The whole lot from gender, sexuality, race, weight etc etc. Why would I have done that? Because I have to pick the best person for the job, and that means someone who will fit into the current structure of the organisation with minimal trouble.

The right person could mean that I need a single white male to fit into a trading desk team - simply because it's the best choice for the company, and as I run the trading desk it makes my life easier. (A job on the trading desk requires long hours and is very intense - not good for married men or women and if I don't hire a woman I don't have to worry about the 'sexuality' thing coming into the play down the track. Also I don't have to worry about a female getting pregnant in a few months time and having to retrain etc etc.)

On the other hand I may well pick a female for other positions or gay people for other reasons - it really depends 100% on who is going to be the best fit for the position available that will both keep me happy and the organisation.

That may sound very selfish but in reality, in the position I am in I have to do it. I might not moraly agree with the principles I employ however I am paid an awful lot of money to keep things running in the company so I have to tow the line.

It's as simple as that and happens in offices and factories around the globe every day.

AA does not work.

Cheers,

mb


User currently offlineTupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 880 times:

mb, I agree. When I hire someone for a job, I want the person who is best suited for it, not a black or gay person just because he is so. I am completely against AA because I don't want to be sued by another person when I hire someone. I am not going to choose someone out there who is a minority just because he is so - that would be reverse discrimination!

User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 878 times:

Hey AN, I didn't invite you to my country. In fact, it pisses me off to some degree that you are taking a job from a Native American. If it's so god awful bad here that all you can do is bitch.... GO HOME!!!

User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 867 times:

Twotterwrench

You mean to say AN is taking jobs from Red Indians? I assume that's what you meant by 'Native American', otherwise you would come across as a bigoted, racist, head-up-his-own-arse wanker......



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 864 times:

Anyone born in the Americas is a "native American", whatever the American Indians may claim. Just look up the terms "native" and "American" in a dictionary and add the definitions...

AA, or "positive discrimination" as they call it here is inherently flawed. It is a major cause for dissent towards minorities.
If I see a black person or a woman in a job, how do I know if that person is qualified?
For a long time there was a requirement here that made the police hire ONLY women and minorities. Lots of Caucasian males who had all the qualifications for the jobs and motivated could not get a job, while underqualified people did get the job (often pushed into it by employment agencies to make themselves look good for employing lots of minority people).

In my yeargroup at university, there were 2 girls and 1 black guy in a total of about 100 students. This was by choice, our universities select only on exam grades from previous education and nothing else. So if people choose not to follow a certain education why should they get jobs requiring that education anyway?



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineTwotterwrench From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 856 times:

Anyone who is not a first generation immigrant or an illegal in this country is a native american by definition. I don't go for the hyphenated american bs that is so prevelant in our country nowadays...ie African-American, Mexican-American, etc. You either are American, or you are something else. And, An-225 is still for the time being, something else.

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