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Fema Head Removed From Katrina Rescue  
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/09/D8CGS6680.html

Quoting http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9266986/:

NBC: FEMA chief relieved of Katrina duties
Report follows controversy over Brown’s qualifications, agency’s response

Brown's biography on the FEMA Web site says he had once served as an "assistant city manager with emergency services oversight," and a White House news release in 2001 said Brown had worked for the city of Edmond, Okla., in the 1970s "overseeing the emergency-services division."

However, a city spokeswoman told the magazine Brown had actually worked as "an assistant to the city manager."

Will Bush have the guts to FIRE this WEASEL? Oh, I forgot, Bush NEVER Vetoes Spending legislation or fires people who CLEARLY deserve it.  Yeah sure

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

...and Bush never admits that he personally made a mistake.


I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

I completely agree with this but:

Quoting Dvk (Reply 1):
...and Bush never admits that he personally made a mistake.



Quoting TedTAce (Thread starter):
Will Bush have the guts to FIRE this WEASEL? Oh, I forgot, Bush NEVER Vetoes Spending legislation or fires people who CLEARLY deserve it.




This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9507 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

funny stuff.

http://www.whitehouse.org/ask/mbrown.asp



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1286 times:

Guess Mike will be back running horse shows ... oh wait, he couldn't manage that either.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

So who made the final call to remove him?

Anyone want to bet he disappears quietly and has a job with Halliburton in 6 months? On his resume he could write: "Successfully managed Hurricane Katrina disaster preparation and recovery. Implemented and oversaw award-winning strategy to protect the city of New Orleans and it's inhabitants."


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

His job was not to protect the people of the city, it was to manage the Federal response to the requests for assistance from local and state authorities.

You guys need to broaden your field of view for targets of opportunity in this. The job of preventing deaths and intial response was not FEMAs.

Get that through your heads.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1218 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
The job of preventing deaths and intial response was not FEMAs.

As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared."

The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.


http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm

Go back to your hole.

[Edited 2005-09-09 21:26:48]

User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1207 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
His job was not to protect the people of the city

Ignore the man behind the curtain!  Big grin



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineRoger136913 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1195 times:

I think they need to start at the bottom with Nagin and work there way up here.

Blanco needs to be held accountable the most I feel. Her lack of following protocol cost lives not FEMA or BUSH.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1192 times:

If they are going to start firing people, you will need to replace the Mayor, as well as the Governor....


NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

Bush to Brown.

ROFL !  Wink

Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
His job was not to protect the people of the city, it was to manage the Federal response to the requests for assistance from local and state authorities.

Between 2001 and 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, asked FEMA for money to fix the levees. However, he was told that the money had been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq (of course, by then FEMA's budget had been hacked in half by the war hungry dauphin king). Jefferson Parish was using its own small tax base to try and fix the levees, something it totally lacked the funds to do.

The Emperor has no clothes, but the blind remain dazzled.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9507 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1182 times:

Quoting Roger136913 (Reply 9):
I think they need to start at the bottom with Nagin and work there way up here.



Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
If they are going to start firing people, you will need to replace the Mayor, as well as the Governor....

I love how you all want to blame the mayor, but you want to forget city politics.

City Administrator
City Manager
Councilmen

+ the influence of the county government, which usually has jurisdiction over emergency disaster response.

+ the influence of the state government, which speaks for itself, and has jurisdiction over the county's ability to act

You also forget Nagin was elected Mayor in 2002. In three years, one single person cannot make the headway against council committees, the council itself, the city planners, the city administration, and rally the involvement of the county government and the state government.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1161 times:

Quoting WellHung (Reply 7):
The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.



Quoting WellHung (Reply 7):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
The job of preventing deaths and intial response was not FEMAs.

As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared."

OK...fair enough...I'll back up a step and be clearer. FEMA does not take charge of the situation and cannot order the states to do anything and it is in charge of helping the states prepare and formulate plans.

Hey, since you guys are taking some specific quotes in order to use them ever so slightly out of context please allow me to take an entire section from the section of the FEMA website you'll be unable to misinterpret.

Federal Emergency Management Agency became part of the Department of Homeland Security on March 1, 2003.

FEMA is in charge of helping people before and after a disaster. FEMA is called in to help when the President declares a disaster. Disasters are "declared" after hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes or other similar events strike a community. The Governor of the state must ask for help from the President before FEMA can respond.

FEMA workers help disaster victims find a place to stay if their homes were damaged or destroyed. FEMA also helps repair homes and works with city officials to fix public buildings that have been damaged.

as important, FEMA helps people BEFORE a disaster so they will be ready. FEMA teaches people how to prepare for a disaster and how to make their homes as safe as possible. FEMA works with communities to help them build safer, stronger buildings that are less likely to be damaged. FEMA also trains firefighters and emergency workers, and runs a flood insurance program. FEMA is part of the EXECUTIVE BRANCH, which means it reports to the President of the United States.

http://www.fema.gov/kids/about1.htm (Go to the link)
FEMA is not in charge of the initial response, and does not take charge of the entire response, simply the federal aid....most of which is programmed to happen after the disaster and focuses on relief and long term assistance. So, FEMA is ounce of prevention and the pound of cure, but they cannot take the place of the individual states forces.

Here's more facts straight from their website since you value it.
FEMA was created in 1979, when President Jimmy Carter joined five different agencies and four different programs into one agency dedicated to planning for and helping after an emergency.

FEMA headquarters is located in Washington, D.C.

FEMA has 10 regional offices across the country.

FEMA is a small agency with only 2,600 full-time workers, and nearly 4,000 other workers called Disaster Assistance Employees. These other workers are on stand-by to respond after a disaster happens. They travel to the disaster and may live there for weeks or even months while a community recovers.

FEMA works with voluntary agencies such as the American Red Cross and other government departments to help people affected by disasters.


Note how they are supposed to be on stand-by to respond after a disaster happens, in order to bolster the local and state response.

FEMA is supposed to help prevent disasters by helping the locals develop their plans and processes. If the city or state says they have a plan and publishes it, then FEMA has assisted in preventing the disaster..which is not the weather, which can't be controlled or prevented, but the failure to execute the local and state plans is not the fault of FEMA.

The bureaucracy and lack of independence is the fault of whoever decided to create and build DHS....which is the entire government, over the initial protests from President Bush, who later relented and proceeded with the idea.

I'm not defending Brown, because I don't think he's managed this thing well, and he seems to be a bureaucrat of the worst kind, but I'm also saying that most of the people who jump to conclusions and scream bloody murder are doing so motivated more by politics than any real desire to see things done better. That's irritating as hell, because people feel free to sow the seeds of discord when unity is needed. Everyone here seems to have the answers, but I doubt there are that many people here who could do a better job, or even understands the issues before us. You guys would have called for the head of Roosevelt after Pearl or Kasserine.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 11):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
His job was not to protect the people of the city, it was to manage the Federal response to the requests for assistance from local and state authorities.

Between 2001 and 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, asked FEMA for money to fix the levees. However, he was told that the money had been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq (of course, by then FEMA's budget had been hacked in half by the war hungry dauphin king). Jefferson Parish was using its own small tax base to try and fix the levees, something it totally lacked the funds to do.

Jaysit...do we need to compare the amount of money that President Bush's administration has put into the area compared to his predecessor? Or how the monies that have gone into the area have been permanently mismanaged by the corrupt locals?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 11):
Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

Bush to Brown.

OK...there's a quote I'll be the President could pull back. He was looking to motivate and lead. His style is not to publicly criticize or make people feel that things are screwed up, so there it is. His crime is he stands behind his people until he can't anymore. The CG Admiral who took over has been the Deputy since Monday, and I'll bet that we'll find that he's been in de facto charge since then. I'll also bet he's taking de facto orders from LTG Honore.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 7):
Go back to your hole.

Any particular shortcomings that make you act all bad ass and insulting over the web? Jaysit usually manages to disagree without calling me stupid, or I him. SATX did not find the need to be a complete ass. You, assmonkey, did, and then had your point reversed on you. Try not being an ass.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineRoger136913 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1153 times:

STLGPH

Yes I know the city has managers and so on, but declaring a emergency the Mayor does not need to take a vote with Councilmen for action if I remember right.

I would say if the Mayor is on the chopping block (Which I feel he should be) then the Councilmen, City Manager and others should also. They are all responsible for the city.......

I get a huge kick out of the LA State Reps and Senators who avoid not taking blame with their failure also. I am sure it's always easier to blame from the top down...............

After all Companies are like the government....

Workers (Citizens) Supervisor (Mayor)
Supervisor (Mayor) State Rep (Department head)
State Rep ( Department Head) Plant Manager ( Senator)
Plant Head (Senator) Vice President ( FEMA)
Vice President (FEMA) President (President)

If a Supervisor fails to have the people under him meet a quota who gives him flak? Surely not the President of the Company right?

I view Local government as I would view a business..... Problems only get to the top dog if the chain is broken.....

Of course this might all look silly but it's my way of viewing the chain of command in government and business...........

Yea I know let the shots fly.............


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1151 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
I love how you all want to blame the mayor, but you want to forget city politics.

City Administrator
City Manager
Councilmen



Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
+ the influence of the county government, which usually has jurisdiction over emergency disaster response.

+ the influence of the state government, which speaks for itself, and has jurisdiction over the county's ability to act

You also forget Nagin was elected Mayor in 2002. In three years, one single person cannot make the headway against council committees, the council itself, the city planners, the city administration, and rally the involvement of the county government and the state government.

All that is true. There's blame to go around here. My problem with Nagin is his obvious panicked reaction after the was personally responsible for the lack of effective evacuation or action plan for the shelter. His appearance on television and immediate blaming of national response for his lack of preparedness is inexcusable. It doesn't look like his police forces are speaking with him, nor the governor (who has her own hole in which she seems to be hiding), and he has yet to display any of the steel people need in their leaders when the chips are down. He asked for that job. He fought for that job. You have to be the mayor when times are hard as well as bad, and he has been a terrible mayor when times are bad.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineRoger136913 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

STLGPH

I am sorry I read your post wrong. I read it as the Mayor would need approval for the City Council and so on. Again I am sorry I read it that way not sure why.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9507 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
My problem with Nagin is his obvious panicked reaction after the was personally responsible for the lack of effective evacuation or action plan for the shelter.

I'm not harping on you, but this argument is heard over and over again. Here's how I look at it, and tell me what you think.

Take a map of New Orleans and look at it. The city lies on a peninsula with two major highways coming out of it? You can't go south. You can't go east. You can't go west. All you can do is go north. It's like trying to take a ketchup squeeze bottle and getting all of it out of there...it *can* happen, but the more holes you poke or if you take off the plastic top and give it an opening the size of a glass bottle...then you have more flow.

It was obvious there were going to be people who would not be able to leave in time. Perhaps Nagin's response was more into shock that more people did not leave or we not able to get out. In my own experience of public affairs reporting, I do know that the county board is responsible, many times and cases, for emergency response planning and management. In many counties, there are entire agencies and offices set up and they are in the county administration building and under county jurisdiction.

But also with Nagin, he probably was able to realize, which took us all a few days to realize, is that all normalcy in New Orleans essentially -stopped- when Katrina came. The fall out of the residents, police, emergency disaster response, etc., left no authority. When you've got a city government that's fled, a state government that is nowhere to be found, cops walking off the job and looting stores on their own...the scope and scale went way beyond his control.

I see his efforts and his appearances on the radio and tv in the days following as a plea for help to regain what control could be regained.

For the answers to many more questions, we'll have to wait for the 60 minutes interview.


EDIT: more humor. http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/brownie.asp

[Edited 2005-09-09 22:33:07]


if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9507 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1134 times:

I don't mean to take this way off topic onto Nagin and the others again, instead of talking about Brown, but Brown's removal from the Katrina rescue, perhaps its the first sign of many changes to come, and changes that will transpire over the next few years.

I'm sure the Louisiana voters will have something to say during the next election.

Then there's the election of 2008...

Then there's the inquiries and grand jury probes.

Then you're looking at what...400,000 civil suits? Any guesses?



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
Jaysit...do we need to compare the amount of money that President Bush's administration has put into the area compared to his predecessor? Or how the monies that have gone into the area have been permanently mismanaged by the corrupt locals?

Actually, while I was never a fan of WJC, his FEMA chief was one of the best the agency has had. After the devastation wrought by Hurricane Andrew in 1992, where it became obvious that FEMA had been turned into the equivalent of Marana for bureaucrats under Poppie (shades of things to come, I guess), Bill Clinton after the November election appointed James Lee Witt as the agency's director. Witt had been feted for his successful management of three presidential disaster declarations, including two major floods in 1990 and 1991. The agency's budget was beefed up to $ 1 billion (since then been slashed to less than $ 400 million), and Dubya was actually asked by some Republicans to keep Witt on. Well, of course not. He appointed one of his own hacks, like any Third World potentate would. WJC may have been a slimeball, but he believed in good government. Dubya, who fancies himself as Reagan's heir and is beholden to Grover Norquist, believes in no government. Therein lies the difference.

As far as fixing the levees go, studies on the potential for the levee breakdown conducted through the 90s reached a conclusion about 2001. But by then FEMA was gutted. As far as monies going to those corrupt locals go (yet another attempt by you to deflect criticism of Dubya's house of cards), federal monies under FEMA are kept under its own control. There may be subcontracts, of course, but the budget is under FEMA control.

And, yes, the Mayor of NO has come off as a blithering dimwitted idiot. He should be fed to the gators in the bayou. Along with the entire White House.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
Take a map of New Orleans and look at it. The city lies on a peninsula with two major highways coming out of it? You can't go south. You can't go east. You can't go west. All you can do is go north. It's like trying to take a ketchup squeeze bottle and getting all of it out of there...it *can* happen, but the more holes you poke or if you take off the plastic top and give it an opening the size of a glass bottle...then you have more flow.

SA Czech Airlines">OK....I'll say that you could, prior to the storm, get out over the causeway as well as head west across state highways and roads, but north is the easiest way out, and the most practical for mass evacuation.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
Perhaps Nagin's response was more into shock that more people did not leave or we not able to get out.

Perhaps? I'd say he was absolutely in a state of shock and panic. Especially when he realized he did not get these people out and he dithered until his means for transporting them out was under water. Had he started shuttling people north to Red Cross and SA camps on Saturday they would have been better off. They could have dedicated a lane on the expressways north for these convoys. I think he was thinking that when he screamed for Greyhound buses.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
I do know that the county board is responsible, many times and cases, for emergency response planning and management. In many counties, there are entire agencies and offices set up and they are in the county administration building and under county jurisdiction.

I'd like to know for sure what the chain of command is there. In ATL the city takes precedence within city limits over county, which picks up outside the city limits. In MIA the city and county are merged and there is a clear chain of command. I'll look it up and see.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
But also with Nagin, he probably was able to realize, which took us all a few days to realize, is that all normalcy in New Orleans essentially -stopped- when Katrina came. The fall out of the residents, police, emergency disaster response, etc., left no authority. When you've got a city government that's fled, a state government that is nowhere to be found, cops walking off the job and looting stores on their own...the scope and scale went way beyond his control.

The loss of control demonstrated his complete lack of leadership ability. He did not recover. Had he taken a body blow by the onset of the flooding on Tuesday morning (remember that Monday everyone thought they dodged a bullet) but recovered and had control he could have redeemed himself. It did not happen. Nagin should have prepared for the disaster with the city police and emergency workers, and he should have had the governor on scene to share in the danger with her people. A clear example of leadership on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning would have had a calming effect and the police would not have felt abandoned by its leadership. The cops that lost track of their families should have been considered in advance and their families should have been transported out Saturday when the evac happened so that their cops could have focused.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
For the answers to many more questions, we'll have to wait for the 60 minutes interview.

Yep. Or the investigating committee/commission.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
I'm sure the Louisiana voters will have something to say during the next election.

Ya think?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
As far as fixing the levees go, studies on the potential for the levee breakdown conducted through the 90s reached a conclusion about 2001. But by then FEMA was gutted. As far as monies going to those corrupt locals go (yet another attempt by you to deflect criticism of Dubya's house of cards), federal monies under FEMA are kept under its own control. There may be subcontracts, of course, but the budget is under FEMA control.

These are questions more than challenges. I think you'll have sources and I'd like to see them.
Was FEMA gutted money wise? Please post a link showing how funding was cut from FEMA when it changed from one administration to the next, and please account for the transfer to DHS as well, which probably absorbed some admin costs. I'd also like to see your source on FEMA being in charge of the levees.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1108 times:

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 10):
If they are going to start firing people, you will need to replace the Mayor, as well as the Governor....

 checkmark  and  checkmark 
Period.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
You also forget Nagin was elected Mayor in 2002. In three years, one single person cannot make the headway against council committees, the council itself, the city planners, the city administration, and rally the involvement of the county government and the state government.

Well, I guess he won't have to worry about that now will he . . . and just where HAVE the anonymous city managers been while Mayor  hissyfit  has been hunkered down in the Hilton? Lotta good THEY did, standing with their Mayor in a time of crisis, or assisting in the evac of their constituents . . . Psssht.  sarcastic  City Managers my ass.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 13):
The CG Admiral who took over has been the Deputy since Monday, and I'll bet that we'll find that he's been in de facto charge since then. I'll also bet he's taking de facto orders from LTG Honore.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind that the MFIC of the entire operation, regardless of current political affiliation or status, save PotUS, including Chertoff, Governor  cry  and Mayor  hissyfit  is LTG Russell Honore'. Including the newly appointed FEMA Field Commander, VAdm Allen. LTG Honore' is in charge, and if there are any questions about that, just ask him.


Like the hard headed, less than eloquent SOB that I am, you will never convince me that the comedy of worthless preparedness and inept management in NOLA and Baton Rouge contributed as much to or more than any other factor in the loss of life in NOLA.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
just where HAVE the anonymous city managers been

There is no post of City Manager for the City of New Orleans, as I've pointed out in other threads on this topic. There is a city council and department heads, but other than that, there's just the Mayor.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1099 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
There is no post of City Manager for the City of New Orleans, as I've pointed out in other threads on this topic

Yes, I know. We had this conversation. But since STL continues to harp on it like a broken record, I thought I might humor him a bit . . .  wink 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
City Managers my ass.

I could just as easily have said, "City Council My Ass" and had equal affect.


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