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English Premier League Vs. US MLS  
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3177 times:

Any Leeds United fans?

The US MLS is thinking about expanding yet again in 2007 to include 2 of the following 5 cities.

Seattle
Milwaukee
Toronto
Rochester
San Antonio

They are also planning to move either Kansas City or San Jose to Houston in 2006.

So the question is, instead of structuring the MLS like the NFL, NHL, MLB or NBA, where teams constantly move to find better markets and better stadiums why not follow the English Premier League and let every city have a team that can move up leagues as they get better and get sent down as they get worse. In theory this would allow the markets that sustain high attendance to bring in better players and stay in the top league, while the teams that can only sustain smaller attendance (like Kansas City) would drop down to a less competitive league. It seems to me this would create a much more dedicated fan base and allow for better competition.

The US already has a pretty well developed "second" league with the USL 1st division, USL 2nd division, USL Premier league development and finally the USASA so it seems like the "structure" already exists.

Which is better and why? The English (European) style where teams are sent to different leagues when they suck, but stay in the same city or the US NBA/MLB/NFL/NHL style where bad teams get moved to different markets when they suck and when the owners demand new stadiums and the current city doesn't provide one.

What typically happens to a club (fan base, attendance, players salary, stadium) when they are relegated to a lower division in the English leagues? Any Leeds United fans care to talk about if relegation is good? Do you still support your club and go to the matches?


"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

I don't see the question.

Quoting NUair (Thread starter):
What typically happens to a club (fan base, attendance, players salary, stadium) when they are relegated to a lower division in the English leagues?

of course you support the team!You love the colors, so you foolow them till the end!Only very few people wil understen this.Brazilians and British are among those.Go to see a game in any of these leagues, you'll be amused.
Specially Boca-River, the biggest rivalry in the world.

Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

The MLS doesn't even count as football. What a useless, boring, played within 25 years of the centerline game.

I was flipping through channels this weekend and found a football match on Fox Sports World...much more entertaining than the MLS.

There was actually some action!



This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 1):
of course you support the team!You love the colors, so you foolow them till the end!Only very few people wil understen this.Brazilians and British are among those.Go to see a game in any of these leagues, you'll be amused.
Specially Boca-River, the biggest rivalry in the world.

Boca and River are both in the Apertura division so the question to you would be if either one dropped to the lower division would you still be a supporter?


I just want to know if relegation really works in the eyes of a fan and the eyes of team owner?

The question is what happens to the TV contracts, endorsements everything else when a team gets relegated?

In the case of Leeds United will they ever be a great team again?

Why would you invest in a club/franchise if you knew a chance existed that they would no longer be at the top level of competition?

In other words how would you explain to a US team owner that relegation is a good idea and is good for the league?

Since posting my question I have read a lot of articles on Eurosport etc. of people in the UK totally against the relegation system and asking for it to be changed to a more "American" system, do a lot of people in England support that idea?


BTW thank you Argentina for two great players  Smile



Facundo Erpen
Former club: Talleres de Cordoba



Christian Gomez
Former club: Arsenal (Argentina)



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 2):
The MLS doesn't even count as football. What a useless, boring, played within 25 years of the centerline game.

Even if you aren't an MLS fan the question is more to do with the structure of the leagues. What is the advantage/disadvantage of the Europe/Latin America relegation system vs. a NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB league system?

Even if you hate the MLS would you support a relegation system for an American league you do like, such as the NFL?



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 2):
The MLS doesn't even count as football. What a useless, boring, played within 25 years of the centerline game.

I agree. When I saw my first English premier league match, I finally understood why soccer is popular the world over, and why MLS is but a pale imitation thereof.


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I agree. When I saw my first English premier league match, I finally understood why soccer is popular the world over, and why MLS is but a pale imitation thereof.

Hey DC United only lost to Chelsea 2-1 (yes they had their starting line) so we aren't that far behind...you have to start somewhere.

Either way, assuming that the MLS continues to grow, how should the league be structured? More of a US style or European style?



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

The biggest reason promotion and relegation are unlikely is money. The owners of MLS franchises paid a lot of money to have their team, and they don't want to risk being sent down to the USL. The salary cap is also an issue. Teams are going to want the ability to spend as much money as possible to avoid relegation, and the salary cap will get in the way of that. However, elimination of the cap will kill the teams without soccer specific stadiums, as they won't be able to keep up financially.

Another issue is that the stadiums of some USL teams may not be up to the standards for MLS. Also, something will have to be done about player contracts. Right now MLS owns the contracts for all players in the league. An agreement will have to be made between MLS and the teams to transfer the contracts to the clubs.

All that said, I would love to see promotion and relegation come to MLS.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

For future MLS expansion, Seattle, Milwaukee and Rochester make sense. All three cities have put together very good teams in the US First Division (the old A-League). I'm surprised Long Island isn't in consideration (it was thought for a time that the MLS would put a team on L.I. because of the success in the mid 1990s of the Rough Riders).

A promotion/relegation system has been proposed many times (there were some teams that would go up and down the the various leagues, but nothing that was along the lines of relegation and promotion.), but it is seen as a system contrary to the way Americans think about sports. What is also hurting the chances of such a system being implimented in the US leagues is the financial state of the game in the US. It's not uncommon for teams to fold, reappear the next season with new owners. The USL 1st Division team here in Atlanta has had gone through several owners and two names since their first season in 1995.


User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 8):
What is also hurting the chances of such a system being implimented in the US leagues is the financial state of the game in the US. It's not uncommon for teams to fold, reappear the next season with new owners. The USL 1st Division team here in Atlanta has had gone through several owners and two names since their first season in 1995.

From my limited understanding of the English Premier League they basically have a base of 10-12 teams that will probably never face relegation as they have a very strong fan base and financial situation that will keep them out of harms way. The other teams occasionally jump to the top of the standings but still have a chance at winning it all and becoming a solid premier league team.

Lets say the current 12 MLS teams are strong and can hold out against USL teams. Expand the MLS to include 4 USL teams (instead of creating new teams to replace USL teams in USL markets). At the end of the first season 2 teams would be at risk of relegation to the USL 1st division and two USL teams would move up to the MLS. In terms of the USL those teams bouncing back and forth are only going to get stronger and find an even larger fan base as supporters know that their team has the chance of being in the top league at the end of the season instead of just a secondary league...

It will also encourage investors in teams like Kansas City to instead buy a USL team and develop the teams they see as being in strong "soccer" markets rather then just the markets decided on by the MLS.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 7):
The salary cap is also an issue. Teams are going to want the ability to spend as much money as possible to avoid relegation, and the salary cap will get in the way of that

I don't think many USL teams will be able to get anywhere near the MLS salary cap. But I think the minimum salary will need to lowered.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 7):
An agreement will have to be made between MLS and the teams to transfer the contracts to the clubs

agreed

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 8):
but it is seen as a system contrary to the way Americans think about sports

Perfect example of this is NCAA teams that get moved from Division 1 to Division 1AA and disappear.

Maybe the soccer crowd is different?



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

Quoting NUair (Reply 3):
Boca and River are both in the Apertura division

They are in the A division, currently playing the Apertura Tournament.  Smile
Apertura and Clausura are the names of the cups, not the division.

Quoting NUair (Reply 3):
would be if either one dropped to the lower division would you still be a supporter?

See again my reply  Wink


Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3072 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 1):
I don't see the question.

Me neither... trying to compare the EPL with the MLS is like comparing an A340 to a Wright Flyer.     

[Edited 2005-09-20 04:20:58]


Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Wait...America still has Major League Soccer? I thought that soccer went out of style after the U.S. held the World Cup back in the 90s.

I would just like to see MLS succeed and then see the U.S. National team kick some serious ass. Then I would like to see my countrymen get behind it.

As more teams are created the system will have to change. You might see some kind of profit sharing agreement like in MLB so that teams don't fail as much.

I personally would like to see teams not move at all. Keep the pride...that is why I am a Green Bay fan. Can't leave Green Bay...they are owned by Green Bay merchants association. They are an asset to the city.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting NUair (Reply 6):
Hey DC United only lost to Chelsea 2-1 (yes they had their starting line) so we aren't that far behind...you have to start somewhere.

That was one game. The speed of the game in the EPL is simply on another level. When I see the top US stars currently playing on the EPL leaving for the MLS in the prime of their careers, I'll believe that there might be parity between the two leagues.


User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26359 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3055 times:

Quoting NUair (Thread starter):
They are also planning to move either Kansas City or San Jose to Houston in 2006.

I can't see Earthquakes moving, as they are the only bay area team and have had a great deal of success, though the loss of Landon Donovan was a major blow. I would bet on KC



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 11):
Me neither... trying to compare the EPL with the MLS is like comparing an A340 to a Wright Flyer.

Not only are they being compared but the MLS is thinking of switching over to a similar system as the EPL, which is the whole reason for this post.

You don't understand comparing the structure of one league with another? Nobody is comparing the skill level and that has nothing to do with the question.

I'll make it really easy for you.

Which system is better -

The English system where you have relegation

or

The American system where you have a set league with set teams

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 10):
They are in the A division, currently playing the Apertura Tournament.
Apertura and Clausura are the names of the cups, not the division.



Quoting AR1300 (Reply 10):
See again my reply

When were Boca or River ever Relegated?

Here is where they stood at the end of 2004

Relegation was defined by the worts averages (points / matches) of the last 3 seasons:

-----Seasons-----
Teams 01/02 02/03 03/04 Points Matches Average
1. River Plate 84 79 66 229 114 2.008
2. Boca Juniors 68 79 75 222 114 1.947
3. Quilmes 60 60 38 1.578
4. San Lorenzo de Almagro 57 56 62 175 114 1.535
5. Racing Club 71 53 50 174 114 1.526
6. Vélez Sarsfield 48 66 53 167 114 1.464
7. Colón 56 57 49 162 114 1.421
8. Banfield 48 48 64 160 114 1.403
9. Arsenal 49 55 104 76 1.368
10. Newell's Old Boys 51 49 51 151 114 1.324
11. Gimnasia y Esgrima LPG 64 46 38 148 114 1.298
12. Independiente (Ave) 41 61 44 146 114 1.280
13. Rosario Central 40 62 44 146 114 1.280
14. Lanús 51 51 42 144 114 1.263
15. Estudiantes LPG 54 43 44 141 114 1.236
16. Olimpo 51 39 90 76 1.184
----------------------------------------------------------------------
17. Talleres (COR) 30 44 59 133 114 1.166 (Playoff)
18. Atlético de Rafaela 43 43 38 1.131 (Playoff)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
19. Chacarita Juniors 47 41 38 126 114 1.105 (Relegated)
20. Nueva Chicago 48 41 28 117 114 1.026 (Relegated)


Back to the original question. Would you, all the other fans and the owners still be dedicated fans if River or Boca was sent down to the second division?



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
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