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A Few Thoughts On The Mess In Houston  
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

I have been watching the mess in Houston, and passing all the information I can back to my father, who is working to get one of his truck drivers out of Houston and we have been sort of pondering something.

OK here are some accepted facts:

Houston is above sea level.

Houston's police force is professional, and will not have around a third of them deserting in the wake of a disaster.

Houston is not going to flood, aside from the storm surge.

There will be looting in Houston, there is in any disaster like this, but it will be minor compared to NO.

Given all this, why are they evacuating?

My theory, and it may be as bad as something MD-90 finds on one of his sky is falling websites is this: Houston is being evacuated just so the powers that be in Washington can see if it is possible to quickly evacuate a major city.

The answer is no, it isn't possible. The guy my dad is trying to get out is in a truck with a 53 foot trailer, empty.. he has about 150 gallons of diesel on board.. enough to last a damn long time thankfully. He has been trying to get out of the city for almost 24hrs. He is on the way to Austin.. He may make it by morning, or maybe not. He would just stop, go to bed, and wait, except there is no place to stop.

Imagine if this evacuation was being done under threat of a nuclear, biological, or chemical attack? Well, at least the emergency crews would know where to find the bodies.. clogging the highways.

Peoples cars are dead along the road, there is no fuel to be bought because poor planning has the fuel delivery guys leaving with everyone else. People are going in any direction they please, there is very little order.

The people of Houston need to be glad this is a slow moving storm, they would have been better off stuck at home than stuck along the highway when the hurricane hits.

My solution would have been this... Say if you are in a certain set of zip codes you will exit the city to Dallas. Another set of codes, you will exit towards San Antonio. Another set of codes, down the coast towards Corpus. After you reach a given jumping off point, you can go wherever you like. The highways would have been made all one way within a few hours of the evac order being given.. not 2-3 days into it. Fuel delivery drivers would be included with firefighters and police in a mass evac as mission critical people.. 4 million people don't move on willpower alone, it takes fuel. Tow Trucks would be put at the ready to drag any dead cars off the road.. The people from the dead cars would be bussed to shelters.

This would be expensive, it would require a lot of changes.. but this evacuation thing is a mess, if this was a more serious threat the evacuation would cause more harm than good.. it may still.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Now, I don't know about you, but when I see this coming towards me....
http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/Hurricane%20Isabel2.jpg


....I would tend to runaway too.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting CaptOveur (Thread starter):
There will be looting in Houston, there is in any disaster like this,

Well, first things first.

If there is looting Houston, there will be shots fired. Texas law, unlike Louisiana, actually *requires* it's citizens to protect against it . . . in the event a law enforcement officer is not available Texans are obligated under the law to protect their lives and property AND their neighbor's live and property as well.

So, let them loot - or rather let them try.

Now as to the rest CaptOveur, I'd be as far from Houston as I could be right now . . . above sea level, professional police force, storm surge notwithstanding. And I would have left two days ago, not waiting on the traffic jam and the rest of the mess.

As an aside: Charles Krauthammer was hilarious tonight. He said the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans have evidently learned from their mistakes with Katrina . . . "they managed to get all 11 people left in New Orleans out of town".


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

There are parts of Houston, like Missouri City, which are extremely prone to flooding. If I were still living there, I would be sending my family away someplace and stay myself just to keep an eye on things and do what I can. Even in Missouri City, at worst you'll get a couple of feet of water, not like 20-30 feet like in NO.

Galveston is different. The whole island is only a few feet above the water, and the storm surge could well inundate the entire island, and wave action could well wipe out any buildings there. I would definately bail out of there.

Charles


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

I am not saying don't evacuate.. However, people know who needs to leave and who can get by if they stay put... This evacuating the whole area has made it so maybe some of the people who should have gone can't or won't.

User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
If there is looting Houston, there will be shots fired. Texas law, unlike Louisiana, actually *requires* it's citizens to protect against it . . . in the event a law enforcement officer is not available Texans are obligated under the law to protect their lives and property AND their neighbor's live and property as well.

Exactly, and that is a good thing about this state.

Texans will not tolerate that kind of crap. Many business owners here are armed for reasons just like this. They had a Texas County Sherriff talking on MSN I think, and he said both cops and property owners can and will shoot those who endanger their property or lives.

Hopefully news like this has got around, so nobody tries to loot and gets killed.



-NWA742


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

I just can't believe that at 1AM local time, the freeways are still bumper-to-bumper leaving Houston.

At least Louisiana understands the word "contraflow".



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

My sister is stuck on the way to Austin from Houston. Says it is frustrating, but she would rather be safe in AUS than stay in HOU.

It also appears that Texans are better prepared than their neighbors in LA (maybe the state government has something to do with this?), and not to mention, armed as well.

It is a sad testament to society that some people relish the moment that may be the most low for survivors of a natural disaster to loot and plunder. I hope they get what they have coming to them; a bullet that will end the need for trials, appeals, trials and more appeals. Do society a favor, shoot a looter!


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12879 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Perhaps the warnings were too well made? Too much media hype compounded by the Katrina coverage? Probably many of those who left in the Houston area were at very low risk of flooding or getting killed, but still the wind damage in the region could mean NO electric power for weeks in some areas and thus a very poor quality of life for a while. Many may also fear lawlessness after the storm, especially if no electricty, thinned out police (as made a big deal of with Katrina).
The real disaster here is the affects on oil, gasoline, diesel and natural gas pricing and supplies. Over 10% of the refining capacity of the USA will be shut down on top of the 5% already down due to Katrina and make for huge gas/diesel price increases and possible long term reductions in refining capacity from storm damage and many oil/natural gas platforms. The ports where imported oil comes in and oil products distributed will also be shut down for maybe days as well. Loss of electricity from the storm could shut down the pipelines. Then this storm will stall out over northern TX, AR, for days, causing massive flooding in the region.
This is someing like the series of biblical plagues. What next, locusts?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Well, who in their right mind, would WANT to stay with 150 mile an hour winds possible; or torrential rains? Wny would you stay-simply to protect THINGS. A lot of people in the Gulf Coast did that a few weeks back, and many who stayed but could have left paid with their lives.

Sorry, THINGS aren't worth dying for, or shooting someone for. Get out of town, be safe, and deal wtih what happens afterward. At least you'll be alive to deal with it.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1926 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Sorry, THINGS aren't worth dying for, or shooting someone for.

Sorry, but there are people on the other side of the coin that don't care if they have to kill YOU, to get what they want. Whether it be a pair of sneakers, your plasma TV or your water and food; not on my watch.

From my point of view, if I were to stay in my home (like a lot of us did during hurricane Andrew), and I was prepared (water, food, generator, fuel, medical supplies) and I have no desire to leave (Don't live in a flood zone) then why should I let people that have no desire to prepare for such a calamity take by force what I have?

Thankfully the last two brushes with these minimal (to us) hurricanes (Katrina & Rita), all of our neighbors supported each other and helped out with what we could; cutting trees out of the way, patching roofs and even lending a gnereator so that the food in the refrigerators wouldn't be lost. If it had been worse and there were problems with looters, we would still support and protect each other, it is only the correct thing to do, not drop your drawers and bend over.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Sorry, Miamiair, but that's my view. I'd leave town, not take a chance of getting injured or killed by 150 mph winds, and if someone wants my TV, fine. But I'm not going to risk my life or any of family's lives, to protect THINGS.

User currently offlineBaylorAirBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I just can't believe that at 1AM local time, the freeways are still bumper-to-bumper leaving Houston.

Flying HOU-SAN, I saw traffic jams literally 100 miles long. It's unreal.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
wind damage in the region could mean NO electric power for weeks in some areas and thus a very poor quality of life for a while. Many may also fear lawlessness after the storm, especially if no electricty, thinned out police (as made a big deal of with Katrina).

Texans are very good with utilities. My mother works for TXU (the main supplier here), and they have already staged workers throughout the at risk regions. Generally, worst case scenario is that some might be without power for three days, even in an event like this. We'll see.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
What next, locusts?

No; I think next will be a swarm of threads talking about who caused this hurricane.

BAB



I'm just skipping stones...
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Falcon,

You are most certainly entitled to your view, and I can respect the fact that you would leave. But in the case of Andrew, it just blossomed into a monster basically overnight, so there was little time to do anything. But what if you can't get out? What if you are stuck in your home then what? This is what I am talking about.

I am not going to pretend that my roof will take 150 mph winds, but I have to face my home at some point. Maybe if I did leave, it would still be a mess, then what? After Andrew, a lot of people had trailers on their properties while they rebuilt their homes, and not all homes were destroyed either.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Quoting CaptOveur (Thread starter):
Given all this, why are they evacuating?

Over reaction in the aftermath of Katrina maybe? The prospect of 150 mph gail winds ripping through their homes and turning them back into the cheap materials those townhouse developers first built them out of?

All that this shows is that 4 years after 9-11 and billions of dollars spent later, we have no real evacuation plans for our cities. I've often told friends that should we in Washington, DC be faced with a very real terrorist attack, I'll take my chances and stay put right here. Bring out the champagne, make a good meal, and watch some Golden Girls, and light up my first cigarette in 20 years instead of trying to edge out of town at 1 inch per hour with 3 million idiots in SUVs.


User currently offlineBaylorAirBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2913 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 14):
Golden Girls

That's your idea of a good time?!? I hope we're never stranded together.  Wink

BAB



I'm just skipping stones...
User currently offlineBarcode From Switzerland, joined Dec 2001, 678 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

If I'm understanding the news correctly, then people are going to be riding out the storm whilst sitting in their car on the highways. One woman was saying she managed to drive a whopping one mile in four hours.

Are there no backroads? Presumably, nobody is coming into the city, so why not just find a space to drive over into the (usually incoming traffic) lane? Yes, it's illegal, but heck, I'd be doing whatever I can to get out of there.

I've just heard an evacuation bus has exploded. The whole thing is turning into a comedy of errors. Right now, I'm very very thankful I live in a part of the world where mother nature is generally stable.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

I think Bush has failed again. Could he not as the former Governor who had seen hurricanes come before know that the roads/infrastructure was insufficient to evacuate all Metro Houston Galviston in a timely manner?

User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
I think Bush has failed again. Could he not as the former Governor who had seen hurricanes come before know that the roads/infrastructure was insufficient to evacuate all Metro Houston Galviston in a timely manner?

O'm pretty sure that you're joking, becuase this would have happened anywhere. Try here in TPA, where there are 3 bridges and one interstate out that is under perpetual construction. We'd be just as screwed.

I'd stay, as my house is 50 years old and built like a brick shithouse and I'm not in an evacuation zone. The storms last year took out all my big trees, so I'd stock the non-perishables and water and booze and pack all my friends and family that live in low-lying areas in.

 candle   champagne 



This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
I think Bush has failed again. Could he not as the former Governor who had seen hurricanes come before know that the roads/infrastructure was insufficient to evacuate all Metro Houston Galviston in a timely manner?

What do you think he is, God? You have X number of roads and lanes heading north and west, and you have X million people trying to get on them. Do the math.

My question is, are there reasons for the traffic jam other than simple congestion. Accidents? Old man driving his '47 packard in the left lane at 5 MPH? What?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Perhaps the warnings were too well made? Too much media hype compounded by the Katrina coverage

I've been through a few Hurricanes in Houston, like Alecia in '83. Power goes out for a couple of days, there is a lot of trash in the streets, and there is some flooding, generally in areas that are well know for it (Houston gets lots of flash flooding, due to sandy soil). Those people in known flood areas should maybe move out, but I would say that at least 80% of Houston does not need to be evacuated (unlike Galveston). I think there is a definate overeaction.

Charles


User currently offlineTPASXM787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
Those people in known flood areas should maybe move out, but I would say that at least 80% of Houston does not need to be evacuated (unlike Galveston).

This is true. When the Tampa Bay metro area (3 to 4 million pop.) was threatened last year, the exodus was a disaster. Pinellas county has huge issues because there are lots of low-lying areas and three bridges to get out on. I'm lucky to live on high ground, but my neighbor behind me is about 15 feet below me, so I drain into her yard.

All of the barrier islands need to get out, but for example like here, when you go over the bridge from the beach, you go up at least 30 feet in elevation.

People need to be cautious but NOT go crazy.



This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
What do you think he is, God? You have X number of roads and lanes heading north and west, and you have X million people trying to get on them. Do the math.

This means that 4 years after 9-11, there are no viable plans for evacuation of major urban centers in the face of a catastrophe.

Maybe it isn't even feasible. There are logistical limits to what can be achieved.

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 15):
That's your idea of a good time?!? I hope we're never stranded together.

Hey, it beats watching Paula Zahn chatter endlessly on how little Tommy and his family are fleeing the hurricane.


User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 17):
I think Bush has failed again. Could he not as the former Governor who had seen hurricanes come before know that the roads/infrastructure was insufficient to evacuate all Metro Houston Galviston in a timely manner?

That's funny Ted...

First the Liberals would have said "we don't need the roads for nuclear war evacuation. Don't you know nuclear war is unwinable? We'll all be dead anyway!! Spend the money on welfare!"

Second, while the roads were being built, the Liberals would have claimed the contractors were friends of Bush.

Lastly, after the roads were complete, the Libs would have complained that money spent to maintain them would be better spent on public transit...

Whaa!


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1812 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 21):
This means that 4 years after 9-11, there are no viable plans for evacuation of major urban centers in the face of a catastrophe.



Quoting SATL382G (Reply 22):
Lastly, after the roads were complete, the Libs would have complained that money spent to maintain them would be better spent on public transit...

And you forgot the ecological impact of increasing the number of lanes on each highway, and of building new roads.

Let's face it, any time you are talking about evacuating more than 5 million people, you just can't do it in less than a week or two, and unfortunately you can't predict the weather that far ahead. If you were to evacuate all the coasts (just in case) every time a hurricane appeared in the Atlantic, the entire gulf coast would be a basket case.

Charles


User currently offlineDucatiRacer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1807 times:
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Living in Dallas, I must admit I have been absolutely disgusted with our local news media. All week the weather people here in North Texas have been practically ejaculating on themselves with constant reports of impending doom for our area. Talk about desperate for some of the hurricane glory!

As I left for the office yesterday morning, the local NBC affiliate was still predicting a near direct hit of the eye here in Dallas, and that the storm would still be a Cat 1 hurricane when it got here. 10 minutes later when I arrived in my office, I checked CNN and the Weather Channel. Both sources already had articles discussing Rita's weakening, and stating that it would most likely travel well east of DFW. It was not until this morning that I heard any local news source admit that the storm would probably not affect us much as it was passing to the east. As a result of the ridiculous hype, as late as last night people were still swamping Wal-Mart, etc. to stock up on bottled water and emeergency supplies - absolutely insane. Unfortunately, its current track appears to take it almost right to my parents front door in Texarkana, but the thing is supposed to be little more than a tropical depression when it gets there.


25 Jaysit : Keep sputtering inanities (apparently as easy as falling off a bike for you). Federal Highway funds have always been a big Democratic Party interest,
26 11Bravo : I think that's absolutely correct. Whether you’re talking about New Orleans, Houston, Tampa Bay, or any other major metropolitan area in the countr
27 ScarletHarlot : I understand why people in places like Galveston and Clear Lake are evacuating, and if I was in a zone that was likely to be flooded, I'd be evacuatin
28 Slider : Bullshit! There are a network of bayous, rivers, creeks, etc, that all run over Houston metro area- ultimately, when you get that much water, it's go
29 TPASXM787 : Stay safe dude. Don't try to run out and see if you can stand up in a 140 mph wind. We had an co-worker do that last year during Jeanne and he almost
30 Slider : We'll do- thanks bud. I've got most prep done, just have to finish boarding up this afternoon.
31 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Or it'll happen once or twice, til it hits the news . . . that'll be the end of that crap. Strap in and Hang on - literally . . . I have other friend
32 SATX : If Houston gets looted, wouldn't it be Texans doing the looting? Let me get this strait. They're armed 365 days a year on the off chance that a major
33 TPASXM787 : they're armed to shoot bastards that try to steal their shit in any situation. this just qualifies as an exception.
34 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yet another post from our friend SATX - the guy that makes mountains out of mole hills - reads so much more into any sentence and none of it is relev
35 BaylorAirBear : Why waste an extra round? One will work, unless you've got a .22 short. Then you may as well use a butter knife. Now you're just being an idiot. It w
36 CougarAviator : From what I understand, alot of the bottleneck was citizens who did not necessarily have to leave, leaving town...... There were mandatatory evactuati
37 CaptOveur : That is a given That is the point I was making.. There are some areas of Houston that needed to leave because they are prone to flooding. The people
38 CougarAviator : Captnoveur, I can't wait to see everyone pouring back into the city.......
39 Post contains images Superfly : Makes sense to me. Sort of like a fire drill on a mass scale. Hope she gets though this hurricane unharmed. Well said! I totally agree. Besides, the
40 CaptOveur : this is what I was thinking about SUVs. If you paid the money for 4wd and are trying to get the heck out of the city before the apocalypse.. Why are
41 Superfly : Well they 'need' them to impress there neighbors, co-workers and Church members. Don't mean to go too far off topic.
42 TriStarEnvy : My SUV impresses, no one. Back On Topic: I have some old friends joining in the big "skee-daddle" from Houston. No luck talking to them via cell. I w
43 SATL382G : A voice of reason in a hurricane of emotion... Thanks! Please don't expect me to believe that Dems are so far forward thinking and so humanitarian mi
44 COrocks : It is totally understandable that so many people are leaving the city given what happened in NO. And yes, Houston will flood, as shown from Tropical S
45 Post contains images NWA742 : Cut the crap, SATX. You know damn well what I meant. Excuse me for not being so particular in saying "law-abiding Texans will not tolerate that kind
46 AeroWesty : This is something I've never understood. Why Texas needs to be so overly armed. Is crime "natural" in Texas? Do "things" get worse in Texas than othe
47 Post contains images Miamiair : Beware, it is only a matter of time before B744F shows up and rants about how people shouldn't be armed...
48 CaptOveur : It is a matter of history. This was the outer back of beyond for so long and this is sort of the state that rejects government intervention whenever
49 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Ha Ha . . . no to both questions. . . everyone has a gun!
50 BN747 : Uh huh... just like the Prossional NEW TSA who failed to show up for work at IAH today. Cops have families (elderly/sick parents to relocate) too, an
51 Post contains images SATX : "Ha Ha Ha." Yet another post from ANCFlyer - the guy who takes an important topic and weeds out the grain to focus on the chaff. My point wasn't that
52 ANCFlyer : You're trying to compare the Houston PD with the TSA!?!?! Gawddamn, you had realllly better tighten down that tin foil hat, and check you uplink to t
53 NWA742 : I never said they were better, nor implied it. -NWA742
54 BN747 : No, that's just you picking the corn out of a steaming pile... In the face of what's imminent, any cop who selects to shirk his duty in order to get
55 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yup, I would have to agree Mr. Spaceman. Anyone that sticks around is looney no matter who they are . . . . but these are Texans we're talking about
56 MD-90 : I find it interesting where that picture of Hurricane Isabel is from.
57 Post contains links LeanOfPeak : As I understand it, the people making their own roads out of the shoulder or the grass are most of the problem. They make great time most of the time.
58 BN747 : Yeah but ANC, not every military/cop family functions like yours did, I've seen many of families that which you speak.. but just like you have slacke
59 CaptOveur : Thanks so much for hijacking and destroying a thread BN747.. I guess you are just doing the only thing you know how to do.. deflect threads with other
60 Post contains images ANCFlyer : And I addressed that, simply: There are, as you indicated, a few bad apples . . . And I'll agree, everyone deserves to be rescued, even the slackers.
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