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GM And Ford Falling Fast; Sales Down 20%  
User currently offlineNUair From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

"The market changed as it often does. Frequently that means Detroit gets left behind. It never fails."

Art Spinella of CNW Marketing Research Inc.

So here are the latest sales figures for September (year on year change)

GM -24.1%
Ford -20.1%
DaimlerChrysler +4%
Toyota +10.3%
Honda +11.7%

Honda Civic +37%
Honda Civic Hybrid +25%
Toyota Prius +100%
Dodge Neon +69%
Chevy Malibu +25%
Ford F-Series -30%
Ford Explorer, Expedition, Navigator -55%
GM all SUV's, minivan's and truck's -30%

To add to the pressure now both republicans and democrats are demanding higher fuel efficiency standards and are currently moving a bi-partisan amendment on the energy bill through congress that will require fuel efficiency improvements of 3% per year.


"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1480 times:

Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

If not that would certainly explain the drop.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

>> GM all SUV's, minivan's and truck's -30%

Well, GM minivans are an utter joke. That's no suprise.

The truck and SUV market, however, is the GM bread and butter. This is a significant impact near-term, but sales of large vehicles are expected to pick-up in the 2007 model year. GM is keeping production constant and isn't cutting back their large vehicle plant.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1469 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

Yes, this is the case. I heard a report about US auto sales on the local radio here in Detroit, and that is exactly the reason why Ford and GM are down.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9328 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Well, sales will see a jump with the release of the next Toby Keith cd.


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
Did GM and Ford still offer employee rebates on their vehicles in September ?

This was a great idea if you live on the philosophy of give me money now and don't worry about the future. All GM and Ford did was steal from themselves. The people who bought on this sale were going to buy a GM or Ford anyway in the next year or two, those who could do it now, did it.. Now sales will continue to fall for them. They didn't steal any market share away from anyone with their most recent promotion.

Some of the drop may be due to the fact they can't but together a decent car that outlives the payment book. Even their trucks are not what they used to be. I know a few die hard Chevy and Ford pickup drivers looking at Toyota and that new Honda pickup. They just want reliability and fuel economy, GM and Ford will still have the people obsessed with power, status, and the ones who really need towing ability.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
they can't but together a decent car that outlives the payment book.

True non-sense.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
Even their trucks are not what they used to be

Yes, they are a lot better!

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
All GM and Ford did was steal from themselves. The people who bought on this sale were going to buy a GM or Ford anyway in the next year or two, those who could do it now, did it..

Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

All the stupid f*cks have to do is market a 100% ethanol vehicle or ANYTHING that doesn't require petroleum-based fuels. If they don't have these vehicles ready to roll because they didn't bother researching and developing them, then they deserve what's coming to them.

Mark


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?

No, its common sense. People who were going to buy a GM or Ford vehicle in the near future just did when they offered the sale. Now look for sales to drop because many of the people who can or would buy one of those buckets just did it.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):

True non-sense.

Spoken like an employee

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Yes, they are a lot better!

Yep, he must work there.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion

Can you image a Camry or Accord driver switching to a Chevy (except for the a Malibu Maxx which is actually an "Americanised" Opel) ?

That is just about as likely as a BMW driver trading in his ride for a Hyundai.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 9):
That is just about as likely as a BMW driver trading in his ride for a Hyundai.

I switched from an Audi (p.o.sh*t) to a Mercury, and am very happy with it.
My partner sold his Nissan Pathfinder for a Mercury and he is also very happy with it. Both are great cars, and touble free.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Yes, they are a lot better!

Yep, he must work there.

No, but I did save a lot of money on my car insurance!

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):

True non-sense.

Spoken like an employee

Nope, not true.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Do you have a source, or is this just your opinion?



[quote=CaptOveur,reply=8]Now look for sales to drop because many of the people who can or would buy one of those buckets just did it.

Such 1970's thinking....have you driven a new American Car. They are ranked as good as any european or Japanese car.

Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products.

My last few cars

Chrysler Sebring Convertable No problems
Audi TT Cabrio, Looked cook, but poor ergonomics, towed four times to the dealer
Mercury Sable Wagon, No Problem
Pathfinder LE, towed twice
Pathfinder LE, Towed in twice
SAAB 9000 Turbo, poor ergonomics


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 9):
Can you image a Camry or Accord driver switching to a Chevy

Just the other day I used my Accord to drag start a friend's Chevy pickup (an 04) when his starter crapped out.

Sort of said it all right there.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Audi TT Cabrio, Looked cook, but poor ergonomics, towed four times to the dealer



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
switched from an Audi (p.o.sh*t)

Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift. The same platform is also used for the mass market Skoda Octavia and Seat Leon.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3393 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products.

You never listed owning a GM, so how could you even possibly know?


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 12):
Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift. The same platform is also used for the mass market Skoda Octavia and Seat Leon.

The Audi TT is built on the same platform as the "new" beetle. Not sure if that is the same as the Skoda or Leon.

Never the less, it looked cool, but was really a pain.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 13):
You never listed owning a GM, so how could you even possibly know?

Ok, I only know Ford and Chrysler.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3393 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

Well the TT is no real Audi but rather a VW Golf that has undergone a radical face lift.

Almost every Audi built shares platforms, and drivetrains with VW.


User currently offlineHAJFlyer From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1401 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 16):
Almost every Audi built shares platforms, and drivetrains with VW

To the best of my knowledge the A2 (Europe only), the A6 and the A8 are built on dedicated Audi platforms.

VW and Audi also (still) have separate 6 and 8 cylinder engines.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
have you driven a new American Car.

Yeah, I have handled a couple of those wonders of engineering know as GM SUVs, I think I last drove a Blazer (or whatever the hell its called now) about a year and a half ago.. They handle like shit, they float through turns, the steering is very loose, the power is good but thats about it.. At least GM still makes decent seats. I wasn't all that impressed with the ergonomics, and I was surprised to discover that I barely fit in the thing, even with the seat way back.

The last Ford (Mercury) I was in (grand marquis) floated through turns, handled like shit otherwise, and had seats that would make my ass go numb if I sat in them more than 20 minutes. The power was OK but nothing great.

I was recently in a fairly new cavalier (2 years old I think).. the AC was barely putting out cold air, the plastic interior fittings were junk, headliner was already coming down, and the damn radio didn't even work.... and the car would get a wierd vibration sitting at lights. Really made me want to run right out and buy a GM product.

If you want to hear about problems with mid-90s GM and Ford products I can write a book.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

Cadillac's new XLR roadster was the highest-rated vehicle in the 2004 Total Quality Index, underscoring a sharp comeback for U.S. automotive giant General Motors.

While Japanese automakers fared well, GM and the South Korean carmaker, Hyundai, proved unexpectedly strong contenders. Meanwhile, the study's perennial winner, BMW, was knocked out of the top spot, according to Strategic Vision, the California-based research firm that produces the annual Total Quality Index.


General Motors took the top spot in 10 of 19 separate product segments, with a mix of specialty and mainstream cars, trucks and crossovers. These included the XLR, Chevrolet Malibu, Monte Carlo and Corvette, and Saturn ION and VUE. The study put Cadillac on a nearly equal par with such long-term customer satisfaction leaders as Lexus, Jaguar, and BMW

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7159


New car quality has hit an all-time high, with all but a handful of manufacturers making significant gains in the 2004 J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey.

The oft-quoted annual report, released today, delivers some unexpected surprises, showing how difficult it's become for any carmaker to dominate the quality charts anymore. Undoubtedly the biggest shocker comes from Korea. Long the industry laggard, Hyundai has soared past the traditional quality leader, Toyota. And even the Japanese automaker's premium brand is now getting some stiff competition - from Buick.

For 2004, Power's IQS reveals an 11-percent reduction in the number of problems the typical U.S. new car owner reported when compared to the 2003 survey. That is a positive development, especially as the quality numbers showed no gains in the previous two years.

"This is one of the more significant improvements we've seen," noted Power senior analyst Brian Walters.

What went wrong, Japan?

The IQS is a measure of what can be called "things gone wrong." That can include major problems, such as a blown engine, as well as more minor matters, including poorly placed cupholders. The survey counts up the number of problems participating owners experienced during the first 90 days of ownership, grouping them into nine separate categories. The final figure is calculated in terms of problems per 100 vehicles, or PP100s. Like golf, this contest goes to the lowest score.

And over the decades, the Japanese have consistently delivered industry-leading quality. This year, their products had a score of 111 PP100s, compared with 119 for the industry as a whole. Among individual manufacturers, Lexus was the brand to beat, with a score of 87, meaning less than one problem per vehicle.

Yet the Japanese do not dominate like they have in the past. Some key manufacturers tumbled. Nissan slipped 11 percent, driving it down to the lower tier of the 36 manufacturers Power ranked. Then there's Toyota, the company that first taught the industry the concept of initial quality. In the 2003 survey, the flagship Toyota brand actually suffered a seven-percent decline. It recovers in 2004, its initial quality gaining 14 percent, to 104 problems per 100 vehicles.

Hyundai stuns, Europe falls

But Toyota's gains weren't enough to overcome the most stunning come-from-behind performance of the year. With what Walters called a "surprising" 29-percent improvement, Hyundai sees its problem count drop to 102.

Until recently, Korean makers have anchored the IQS and other quality surveys. In 1998, when Power redesigned the Initial Quality Survey, they had a score of 272, nearly double the problems of the Japanese, at 156. This year, they surge to second place, with a group score of 117 PP100s, comfortably ahead of both Europeans and American automakers.

That underscores just how rapidly things are changing. In 1998, the Europeans, as a group, edged out the Japanese, led by luxury industry stalwarts Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Mercedes has had a number of serious quality problems in recent years, though it does show signs of a turnaround in the 2004 IQS, its score improving 20 percent.

Luxury makers regularly outscore mainstream brands, as one might expect. With a score of 87 this year, Lexus has again proven the brand to beat on the IQS, but several of its competitors are edging closer. Cadillac delivers a count of 93 problems per 100. And with several specific products, another General Motors division nudges even closer to Lexus territory. The Buick Century, which Walters described as "one of the best models in the industry," comes in with 63 PP100.

Individual products can make - or break - a manufacturer's overall score, as Porsche painfully discovered. Its 911 is the top-quality nameplate in the Premium Sports Car category, but overall, Porsche experiences a 36-percent decline, to 159 PP100s, due to the troubled debut of its Cayenne SUV.

"In the past, it was always a risk to buy a new vehicle," said Walters, yet despite the Cayenne's problems, "Our data now show there's less of risk in buying a vehicle its first year out on the market."


http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7086


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1386 times:

>> Yet the Japanese do not dominate like they have in the past. Some key manufacturers tumbled. Nissan slipped 11 percent, driving it down to the lower tier of the 36 manufacturers Power ranked. Then there's Toyota, the company that first taught the industry the concept of initial quality.

It's the exact same story with Dell. Once you establish great quality, the market will flock to your product, and the associated surge in demand will make it difficult to maintain said quality.

Dell's legendary quality has lowered a bit in the past few years, but they still dominate the market because they are desirable products. Toyota may have been surpassed by other models, but the fact remains that they are still some of the best products on the road. Can the Buick Century say that?


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
Can the Buick Century say that?

Yes, see above:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):
The Buick Century, which Walters described as "one of the best models in the industry," comes in with 63 PP100.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3079 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1371 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 10):
Why don't you people go out and support this country, GM and Ford build fine products

Ummm since Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are also built in the USA by buying one of them are you not supporting the American worker?

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1364 times:

>> Yes, see above:

I meant to say, "most desirable" product. How "desirable" is the Buick Century compared to other medium, large sedans? That's why I mentioned the Buick Century by name.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1362 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):
Ummm since Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are also built in the USA by buying one of them are you not supporting the American worker?

Short answer, no. When we can sell cars in Japan without tariffs, then yes, but until the rest of the world opens their doors as wide as ours, it is not a fair field.


25 VonRichtofen : No surprise here. If things got really bad I think Ford is better off than GM since Ford has decent products in Europe they could possibly bring over
26 TedTAce : Wasn't there a thread like this yesterday where I said something to the effect of we allowed history(70's) to repeat itself again? Maybe this time we
27 VonRichtofen : I think Ford is coming out with an Engine that can run on both Ethanol and Gasoline. So it's at least option in the near future. Kris
28 AsstChiefMark : An option that should have been perfected ten years ago and ready to go NOW...not "by 2010," as Ford says.
29 Theredbaron : LAst Week I rented a Loaded??? Taurus on LAX. I cant believe how bad it isfor a 21 century auto, heck I did not get into big traffic jams and kept it
30 Cptkrell : My '05 4X4 Silverado has a flex fuel V8. I have yet to see any ehtanol-mix fueling infrastructure. Regards...jack
31 LeanOfPeak : Detroit's been making E85/gas FFV's for a decade.
32 ScarletHarlot : Where's Superfly? I would have expected him to post on this thread.
33 Post contains images UTA_flyinghigh : Over the last years I've owned European, Korean, Japanese and American vehicles. I am sorry to say that the American vehicles (Dodge Stratus, Ford Tau
34 Slider : I disagree 100%, especially if fuel prices stay anywhere near where they presently are. I'm not anti-SUV, but have common sense enough to know that t
35 PA110 : Hey, I drive a 2002 PT Cruiser and love it. While the 4 cylinders are a bit under-powered and should be getting more than an avg 22mpg, it is a solid
36 ACDC8 : They still offer it here and it's already October. Chrysler offers it as well. This doesn't surprise me. The majority of US manufactured cars are not
37 Waterpolodan : I usually stay away from american cars for many of the reasons listed above, but this past summer I was given an '05 chevy malibu by a rental agency i
38 ACDC8 : The Malibu is an Americanized Opel. Anyone know what it's based on? The Sigma maybe? I agree to a point. As mentioned, the Malibu is actually a Euro
39 Post contains images LeanOfPeak : All of the Big 3 offer vehicles with Displacement on Demand. All of the Big 3 are performing R&D on this. Ford has Focuses running around with both f
40 Waterpolodan : Speaking of fuel economy, I just finished watching an episode of Tog Gear on Discovery Channel (thank god someone finally has this show in the US) whe
41 LeanOfPeak : The market will be readier with low-sulfur fuel.
42 Slider : Yes, I'm aware of VW, Toyota and Audi all having oil sludge problems along with Chrysler. And guess what? Here's the "Paul Harvey rest of the story"
43 CaptOveur : You mean like the low sulfur Diesel we already run? High sulfur still exists, but not for road use.
44 LeanOfPeak : All well and good, but it doesn't help you if your car is older than a '97. They also dragged their feet coming to that resolution. The only advertis
45 WhiteHatter : We call that stuff City Diesel over here, it's easier to market that way. Our gasoline is also ULS nowadays.
46 CaptOveur : At an additional cost.. Eventually we will make fuels so clean nobody will buy them.
47 WhiteHatter : the cost difference is minimal to the end user so your bitching doesn't hold up. Converting our diesel supplies to City Diesel was fairly painless. I
48 Slider : I agree with you there to an extent. It will take some time, but they cannot sacrifice quality for expediency.
49 CaptOveur : Tell that to someone in the transportation industry who buys 300 gallons of it at a time a few times a week. Now multiply that by 10 or 20, a number
50 Bahadir : It was amazing when I rented a Focus last year in Turkey. It was fun to drive with lots of power .. wish we had the same thing in this side of the At
51 Cptkrell : At the risk of being dissed or flamed by most who incessently engage in these non-productive (and I must say, after the same shit over some years, bor
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