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Senate Votes For Interrogation Limits  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 25
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1056 times:

It's about damn time!

***

Senate Supports Interrogation Limits
90-9 Vote on the Treatment of Detainees Is a Bipartisan Rebuff of the White House

By Charles Babington and Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, October 6, 2005; Page A01

The Senate defied the White House yesterday and voted to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.

Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties. The White House had fought to prevent the restrictions


Washington Post

***

I don't know how much of an effect this has, but its about time something like this passed. I have respect for McCain for pushing for this sort of bill.

Now.... who were the Republicans (of course) in the Senate who voted against this?

Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)
(Source)


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32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1053 times:

I'm glad McCain initiated this bill.

My single concern is: Aside from a few US Senators, how many of them (not too damn many) ever spent a day in a military uniform and have any reference?

I'm all for stemming torture and brutality, but I am concerned that the already rather plush conditions at Gitmo are going to be declared substandard . . . shit, our troops are living in worse condition! What exactly is the content of the bill? Have a link TBar?

Furthermore - I think it almost a waste of legislation in that we already have the rules and regulations that specifiy what is and is not permissible. Now, before anyone goes off the deep end, I recognize some of them were broken. The abusers have been punished.

Isn't this legislation a waste of paper? It's already a federal offense to abuse a prisoner. Political posturing . . . re-election posturing? "Look what I helped pass in the Senate"?

I can see it now . . . a POW camp with curtains, AC, waxed tile floors, maid service.

Where is the line drawn.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1047 times:

The fact that Congress felt the need to step in and pass such a bill is much more an indictment of the administration, and its handling of the prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan, than it is of the military. As ANC says, we already have federal and military laws that prohibit torture and abuse. I think there is a feeling in congress that the current administration is willing to ignore/sidestep those laws, and this is there non to subtle way of reminding Bush and crew to watch it. I think if the administration had been much more forthcoming in how they were handling the prisoners, hadn't fought so hard to keep those in Gitmo sequestered, etc,. this never would have come to pass.


"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4130 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1040 times:

I think the passage of this bill is a sign of a growing rift between the administration and Congressional Republicans. The fact that only NINE Republicans (the only 9 to vote "nay") voted against it, speaks volumes.


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1040 times:

ANC,

I'll look up the text of the bill itself tomorrow, I have to go to sleep now and go to class in the morning. Interesting points though.



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User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1035 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Furthermore - I think it almost a waste of legislation in that we already have the rules and regulations that specifiy what is and is not permissible. Now, before anyone goes off the deep end, I recognize some of them were broken. The abusers have been punished.



Quoting Searpqx (Reply 2):
The fact that Congress felt the need to step in and pass such a bill is much more an indictment of the administration, and its handling of the prisoners from Iraq and Afghanistan, than it is of the military.

What I got out of the article was there was confusion amongst the rank and file as to what their actual instructions are. This bill just puts it in black and white. I've never been in the military, so I don't know what the rule book says or how it's taught, so I can't speak for that side of it, but if officers up to generals are saying "we need help to clarify this for our rank and file", I'm glad that McCain responded with something apparently clear and concise.

From the link:

McCain said military officers have implored Congress for guidelines, adding that he mourns "what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget . . . that which is our greatest strength: that we are different and better than our enemies."
[...]
... standards are needed to clear up confusion among U.S. troops that may have led to the mistreatment alleged at the Navy's Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba and to the abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
[...]
Powell joins a growing group of retired generals and admirals who blame prison abuse on "ambiguous instructions," as the officers wrote in a recent letter. They urged restricting interrogation methods to those outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, the parameters that McCain's measure would establish.
McCain cited a letter he received from Army Capt. Ian Fishback, who has fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. "Over 17 months, he struggled to get answers from his chain of command to a basic question: What standards apply to the treatment of enemy detainees?" McCain said. "But he found no answers. . . . The Congress has a responsibility to answer this call."



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1032 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I can see it now . . . a POW camp with curtains, AC, waxed tile floors, maid service.

Maybe it will open the lines of communication!



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User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

This is the link to McCain's statement on his amendment. Pretty interesting read:

http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?f...r.ViewPressRelease&Content_id=1611



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1023 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
McCain said military officers have implored Congress for guidelines, adding that he mourns "what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget . . . that which is our greatest strength: that we are different and better than our enemies."

That's a cop out by chicken shit military leaders that KNOW the answer but want someone to dictate it to them like children . . . . another example of the leadership failings in today's military - afraid to make a decision and afraid to have the gut to make the hard calls . . . this way - the senior leadership, the same ones asking for black and white guidance, can also say . . . "Gee we were just following orders". It's   , Westy.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
McCain cited a letter he received from Army Capt. Ian Fishback, who has fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. "Over 17 months, he struggled to get answers from his chain of command to a basic question: What standards apply to the treatment of enemy detainees?" McCain said. "But he found no answers. . . . The Congress has a responsibility to answer this call."

I feel for the Captain - however, Congress shouldn't make 'the call'. What Congress should do is put a boot in Dumsfeld's ass and ask him why, damnit, Mr. Secretary of Defense, don't these soldiers have clear, concise guidance in the field? Why, Mr. Secretary of Defense, does an Army Officer have to write his Congressman to get guidance on treatment of Prisoners of War? Why Mr. Secretary of Defense haven't YOU already handled this - you gawddamn arrogant dictatorial SOB?"

That's the right answer!

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
They urged restricting interrogation methods to those outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, the parameters that McCain's measure would establish.

What this tells me is:

The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'. Otherwise why would they ask that interrogation techniques be restricted to those already in place and outlined in FMs! Something damn sure smells fishy here - and it ain't a $500K paintjob on an AS 734!

[Edited 2005-10-06 10:34:41]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1022 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
That's a cop out by chicken shit military leaders that KNOW the answer but want someone to dictate it to them like children

I'm so glad I've learned to put down my drink before opening a thread. Big grin

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Why Mr. Secretary of Defense haven't YOU already handled this - you gawddamn arrogant dictorial SOB?"

That's why I posted McCain's press release. I was surprised he didn't mention Rummy once. Not once! You've just confirmed my suspicions tho.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Something damn sure smells fishy here - and it ain't a $500K paintjob on an AS 734!

LOL! Yeah, there's a lot more to this story. 2008?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1019 times:

""including General Joseph Hoar, who commanded Centcom; General John Shalikashvili, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs; RADM John Hutson and RADM Don Guter, who each served as the Navy’s top JAG; and LTGEN Claudia Kennedy, who served as Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Intelligence. ""

Pretty distinguished list . . . particularly Gen Shali . . .

""We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies. ""

Damn I hope he runs again. . . .


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1017 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'.

Which takes me back to the feeling that this isn't so much about the military as it is a warning shot 'cross the bow' of the Administration.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1017 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
"We stand for something more in the world Ð a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They donÕt deserve our sympathy. But this isnÕt about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

That caught my eye too. That to me isn't a shot across the bow, that's a direct hit, and he's aiming it right at the top.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1015 times:

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 11):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
The Army KNOWS what to do, based on regulatory guidance but has been directed to do 'other things'.

Which takes me back to the feeling that this isn't so much about the military as it is a warning shot 'cross the bow' of the Administration.

And I've professed that sentiment over and over in this forum regarding those enlisted personnel now serving their deserved time time for their error. And the heirarchy is fat, dumb and happy in D.C.

Damn it pisses me off.  irked  irked  irked 


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 999 times:

What I like best about McCain's statement is:

Quote:

Mr. President, to fight terrorism we need intelligence. That much is obvious. What should also be obvious is that the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women. To do differently would not only offend our values as Americans, but undermine our war effort, because abuse of prisoners harms – not helps – us in the war on terror. First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence, because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops who might be captured by the enemy – if not in this war, then in the next. And third, prisoner abuses exact on us a terrible toll in the war of ideas, because inevitably these abuses become public. When they do, the cruel actions of a few darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions. American values should win against all others in any war of ideas, and we can’t let prisoner abuse tarnish our image.

The Army Field Manual authorizes interrogation techniques that have proven effective in extracting life-saving information from the most hardened enemy prisoners. It is consistent with our laws and, most importantly, our values. Let us not forget that al-Qaeda sought not just to destroy American lives on September 11, but American values – our way of life and all we cherish. We fight not just to preserve our lives and liberties but also American values, and we will never allow the terrorists to take those away. In this war that we must win - that we will win - we must never simply fight evil with evil.

The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.

I'm relieved to see that America still has politicians that struggle to keep those values in place that have made it such an admired country. This is the America we loved over here. Not like the one that Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Wolfowitz have created. They have ruined the US' reputation all over the world. I just hope this haunting is over in a few years and a new administration can bring the real America back, while the years under Bush serve as a bad example for generations.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 975 times:

This bill will get the appropriate veto, if it gets past the house.

Fact is as allready mentioned, it is already a crime to abuse prisoners.

I would like to take a moment to thank those 9 senators that chose to continue to fight the war on terrorism and give the military the tools it needs to do the job.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 966 times:

L-188,

Is torture a tool in the war on terror?



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User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 964 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
but I am concerned that the already rather plush conditions at Gitmo are going to be declared substandard . . .

Yeah, I am sure there are plenty of US soldiers who would love their Bibles pissed on by someone  sarcastic 

Come on people, I have personally spoken to the attorney for an AMERICAN CITIZEN who was taken by US operatives in Morroco to a Morrocan "interrogation" room and who was beaten every day, and had his penis cut with a razor blade once a month for more than half a year. This  redflag  has got to stop. Abu Ghraib was not some isolated frat party in the desert, this happens all the time at the behest of those in the Bush government and is completely and totally illegal under international law (codified in US law by treaty and therefore superceding all other laws except the Constitution itself, as provided by the treaty power of the Constitution), as well as by our Constitution.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 961 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 16):
Is torture a tool in the war on terror?

Define torture, Because I don't think it is when you have detanee's in better living conditions then our troops are in, but yet we have these left wingers claiming that it is.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 939 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Define torture, Because I don't think it is when you have detanee's in better living conditions then our troops are in, but yet we have these left wingers claiming that it is.

Better conditions than your troops???? Do the troops live in dark rooms, where somebody plays loud rock-music 24-7? Are they never allowed to sleep, blinded with light, exposed to extreme heat or cold on purpose? Are people spitting on their religious beliefs? I guess not!


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 938 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Do the troops live in dark rooms, where somebody plays loud rock-music 24-7? Are they never allowed to sleep, blinded with light, exposed to extreme heat or cold on purpose? Are people spitting on their religious beliefs?

If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

As for the living conditions . . . I defy you to prove that the cots, sheets, pillows etc at GitMo are less comfortable than the quarters afforded some of our troops.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 925 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

Of course it is torture, what else do you think it is? Child games?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
As for the living conditions . . . I defy you to prove that the cots, sheets, pillows etc at GitMo are less comfortable than the quarters afforded some of our troops.

Do the troops live in cages without proper walls, like animals??


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 923 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Of course it is torture, what else do you think it is? Child games?

It's not torture, and it's not even close . . . .like I said, if you think it is you're naive . . . terribly naive.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
Do the troops live in cages without proper walls, like animals??

No, not at all, in some cases they don't live enclosed in anything . . . once again . . . oh, and those three square meals a day they get come out of a bag most often . . . nothing like that specially designed cuisine at GitMo.

Spare me.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 921 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 20):
If you consider this TORTURE you're pretty damned naive . . .

I beg to differ. What he described is psychological torture, the most notable part of it being sleep deprivation. It can harm a prisoner's psychological and physical health, and therefore it is torture if done intentionally.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8775 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 918 times:

Thorben,

while I was equally shocked and disgusted by the Abu Ghuraib (or however I'm supposed to spell that) photos as most people, I think you ought to take GTMO with a grain of salt.

A) Yes of course, holding people for years without any charges whatsoever is totally unacceptable, especially if the country engaging in it claims to "spread democracy and freedom" around the world.

B) Remember what those RAF terrorists in Stammheim prison did to the public back in the 70s. They were treated in accordance with human rights and anti-torture treaties, yet they managed to manipulate public opinion in a way that got them some sort of sympathies from gullible people. Effectively, they coordinated further terrorist activities from inside the prison and were allowed things no other prisoner was allowed, yet they still managed to sell themselves as "mistreated victims". I have no doubt al-Qaeda is capable of pulling off similar stunts.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
25 L-188 : Hell, when I was in the service we called that a slow Friday night. Sounds like a field problem. Religion no, their career choice, yes.....See Jane F
26 11Bravo : Twenty years from now this is how this whole Gitmo thing will be remembered. I think the treatment issue is, for the most part largely benign, but th
27 Post contains links Tbar220 : Guantanamo Hunger Strike Enters Third Month A hunger strike at the U.S.-run prison camp at Guantanamo Bay has entered its third month. At least 22 det
28 Thorben : Just read this. No more needs to be said. ANC, if you still don't get it, I'm just wasting my time. I'm too young to remember these RAF stories, but
29 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yes, you're wasting your time as I disagree . . . sleep deprivation is lightweight crap . . . if you consider it torture, you're too soft. The prison
30 Post contains links Thorben : Yea, probably I'm too soft. But we're talking about someone being in a closed room, with harsh light on, loud music on, and the temperature going fro
31 Post contains links ANCFlyer : The only issue in this statement that concerns me is their being held without knowledge of what will happen in the future . . . nothing else bothers
32 L410Turbolet : Didn't they v-o-l-u-n-t-e-e-r??? ANC, why don't you go down to Guantanamo for a month or two-long "vacation" to enjoy the "hospitality" of your gover
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