Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1977 times:
I suspect I may take a boatload of grief for my position on this, but it is something that I have thought about for some time. I submit to you that the very first band to embody the attitude of punk was none other than Mr. Robert Zimmerman with Robby Robertson and the Hawks.
You heard me correctly: Bob Dylan. Now some of you might point to the New York Dolls, circa 1972. Not a bad choice, but let's think about what punk means: disdain for the status quo, trading jabs with the audience, loud music beyond the capability of the sound sytem. Dylan did all of this in 1966, some six years before the NY Dolls. OK, Dylan ran out of safety pins, but let's confine ourselves to the ideals, less the manifestations.
For proof, listen to "The Bootleg Serties, Vol. 4., the Royal Albert Hall Concert" actually recorded on May 17, 1966 at Free Trade Hall, Manchester, UK. Specifically, the second (electric) disc.
Dylan barbs at the audience, dealing with the rhythmic clapping (a sign of disdain in the UK and Europe - note the distinction). He blub blub blubs after Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat to get the audience's attention, and then (after several other minor episodes, check them out), he gets slammed with a Fuck you! and a Judas! from the crowd after "Ballad of a Thin Man." He then addresses the miscreant with "I don't believe you...you're a liar", and turns to the Hawks as they are strumming into "Like a Rolling Stone," and says "Play fucking loud!" They proceed to smash all boudaries with a searing version of Rolling Stone which clearly is meant to denegrate the audience, and Dylan's sneering voice is so obviously deprecating to the audience.
Here's a man who stood up for his belief in his work, and no doubt his vision of the future of Rock&Roll. He took an inordinate amount of shit for this all tour long, but stuck to it, and basically put his middle finger up to his audience and said "Fuck you, this is what I am now. Deal with it."
Stlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8979 posts, RR: 27 Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1963 times:
Bob Dylan is almost too mellow to be punk.
Quoting Logan22L (Thread starter): Here's a man who stood up for his belief in his work, and no doubt his vision of the future of Rock&Roll. He took an inordinate amount of shit for this all tour long, but stuck to it, and basically put his middle finger up to his audience and said "Fuck you, this is what I am now. Deal with it."
Sounds punk to me.
Nah, sounds like someone who admires Grace Slick. :P
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1955 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1): Hmm, that sounds an awful lot like Sonny & Cher in their UK days when they couldn't even get an audience in the US if they offered to buy them the drinks. Yes, I said Sonny & Cher.
Dude, you know, I have a good deal of respect for your posts, but that is totally unrelated. I took a good deal of time to compose my thoughts on this subject. Have you even heard Dylan's Bootleg Vol. 4?
Quoting Stlgph (Reply 2): Nah, sounds like someone who admires Grace Slick.
Well, any chick who can drink a case of Schlitz and go out and do a hot show is a chick I want to bang. Grace Slick is hot, but let's try to address the content of this thread - just for the Hell of it. No?
I know that Dylan is not a universally popular musicain, but I am trying to contain this thread to his 1966 UK tour, in which he emerged as a totally punk musician. He set the trend, some 6 years before it actually caught on. If you haven't listened to it, well, just try to be objective.
I have not, actually, but I have read and heard a lot about Sonny & Cher's very early days when they had to literally flee to the UK to have any career at all. It wasn't meant as a slight to your research, but your 3 qualifications to define a punk band was haunting. Sonny & Cher were not the cutesy couple we know them as from their 70's TV show when they were just hitting the stage. Loud, dirty, unkempt, and nontraditional were more adequate descriptions.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1949 times:
Quoting Stlgph (Reply 4): And what trend is that which you want us to stick to here...getting up there and doing whatever you please?
Hey, instigator without true intent: I'm trying to make a case for an idea that has not been widely accepted in the music community. Dylan was the first punk, based upon my posted information. You, my friend, are a deflection Queen. Perhaps "Will and Grace" needs an extra?
Quoting Wikipedia.org: Punk rock is an anti-establishment music movement that began about 1976 (although precursors can be found several years earlier), exemplified by The Damned, The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, and The Clash. The term is also used to describe subsequent music scenes that share key characteristics with those first-generation "punks". The term is sometimes also applied to the fashions or the irreverent "DIY" ("do it yourself") attitude associated with this musical movement.
Quoting Wikipedia.org: bands that now are more often categorized as "garage rock".
The late ‘70’s…
The first raw, sloppy, speeding guitar chords announcing an Orange County punk scene blared from Huntington Beach and Fullerton California in 1978. They echoed the sound forged in 1976-77 in the seminal punk undergrounds of New York City, London and Los Angeles.
In the early days, O.C. punk’s unyielding musical force slammed up against an immovable cultural object: the Orange County dream of quiet, well-oriented, economically impregnable suburban living.
Treating rowdy, often outrageous fans as a gang element, local authorities shut down a series of clubs that championed the music. But O.C. punk proved too hardy to erase.
In 1979, Mike Ness forms Social Distortion with drummer Casey Royer and brothers Rikk and Frank Agnew.
"Basically, they’re into violence," a Huntington Beach police sergeant told the LA Times in 1979. "They have a hatred virtually for everybody. There’s no motive, no rationale. They just do whatever they feel like at the time." The officer went on to plea: "We can’t do anything with out the public’s help. It’s the only way we’re going to stop it."
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1937 times:
Quoting Stlgph (Reply 7): and Bob Dylan is too mellow to be punk.
Hey unenlightened and uneducated: Have you listened to the Bootleg Volume 4? That is what I specifically referred to. If you have not, please reserve judgement. After the 1966 UK tour, Dylan retired for a while, after breaking several vertebrae in his neck due to an accident on his Triumph motorcycle.
Again, I am referring to a specific period in his long career. Shut the fuck up unless you have heard it, dink.
N229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1850 posts, RR: 36 Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1912 times:
I've got to go to bed now, so no time for a thorough post, but: the Bob Dylan suggestion is an honestly interesting idea.
I've seen the suggestion that Iggy and the Stooges first embodied the punk spirit (as someone mentioned above here). Also, potentially earliest of all, the MC5. (Though in fact, that raises the question of various other 60s garage bands.)
Again, since some define punk as an aesthetic (or perhaps anti-aesthetic) stance, and others as a musical style, it would be very hard to make a single case for who consititutes the first "punk" band.
Personally, I'd say the Kinks "You Really Got Me" already foreshadows many aspects of punk attitude and style in 1964. (The guitar distortion was done by sticking knitting needles through the amplifier speaker! How punk is that!) And of course the Kinks were famous for a couple years right in there for spending more time physically fighting each other onstage than worrying about their audience...(Their attitude and style would change by the later 60s of course...)
There's a case to be made, that if punk needs to call itself such, and also represents a truly nihilistic and paradoxially unsustaining philosophy and life-style (where as soon as it is famous and/or successful and/or codified/consistent enough, it is no longer punk at all), then the ONLY punk band ever was the Sex Pistols.
But personally, I find that idea a lot of bullcrap since clearly the best punk band of all time was the Clash.
Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1899 times:
I was reading about Billy Idol the other day, and I didn't know that his 70's band Generation X was way ahead of its time, their mission statement being punk (the real punk, with the leather and hair color). Maybe not the first in the world, but considered by many as the influence for all the 80's punk bands as we know them.
Logan, I respect your opinion. But mine about Bob Dylan is that he's someone with huge talent, especially in writing lyrics, except that I can't connect with his voice and the way he sings.
Isn't his style folk, rock and electric blues anyway?
Kevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1891 times:
Quoting N229NW (Reply 14): Personally, I'd say the Kinks "You Really Got Me" already foreshadows many aspects of punk attitude and style
Absolutely! Along those veins....."My Generation".
Quoting N229NW (Reply 14): clearly the best punk band of all time was the Clash.
Pete Townsend once said: "If it weren't for bands like the Clash....I would quit".
I remember in 1976, a shitty little radio station out here called KROQ had this pink haired guy who sounded confused named "Rodney Bingenheimer" did a radio show which broke bands like Clash, Sex Pistols, New Your Dolls,Talking Heads. I remember he first played "Tom Petty" "American Girl" in LA and everyone thought the Heartbreakers were PUNK!
Uh Oh! here comes the Dylan fans.
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8225 posts, RR: 28 Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1880 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
I was gonna say, some of those early Who songs were pretty punkish. And of course the blowing up the drums and smashing the guitars and everything.
I've come to the decision that I don't associate punk with an image. I rather associate it with a musical style. The reason is that there are always other bands that look like your typical punk and have the attitude of your typical punk, but their music is nothing like it. I mean if you wanna talk about going against the grain and whatnot, look at some serious metal music. But I would never say they were punk, and actually they'd probably kill me if I did. Look at a band like Avenged Sevenfold, who might look pretty punkish (and I actually think they're from OC), but they write some very complex and damn good metal.
I'm in a hard rock band. Now, I go to school for aerospace engineering, our singer/rhythm guitarist works for Progressive Auto Insurance, our lead guitarist works for Northrop Grumman Space Technology, and, well, we're kind of in between drummers. Point being, at any gig we play, we're generally the most "average" looking guys there. But we pretty much fucking rock when we want. I just think images and attitude are way overrated. Though Dylan as the first punk is definitely interesting.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1819 times:
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 18): I was gonna say, some of those early Who songs were pretty punkish. And of course the blowing up the drums and smashing the guitars and everything.
Fair enough. These pre-date the Spring 1966 Dylan tour of the UK. But to quote Roger Daltrey when asked in 1965: Are you a mod or a rocker? - His reply was: "I'm a Mocker." Courtesy of David Frost.
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 18): I've come to the decision that I don't associate punk with an image. I rather associate it with a musical style.
I associate "punk" with an attitude. It has nothing to do with music in the purest sense. "Punk," despite some American bands such as the NY Dolls, originated from the streets of London and other cities in the UK by guys who were sick of the conservative status quo, and who wanted to stick their middle finger as high in the air as it could go.
This is why I view Dylan's performance with Robbie Robertson and the Hawks on May 17, 1966 as "punk." He fought with the audience, and turned to his band and said: "Play it fuckin' loud." Like a Rolling Stone from that disc is a huge middle finger in the air from Dylan. He had admirers that he could have pacified to the tune of millions of dollars; instead, he chose to push his direction without care for his image. He literally shoved it down their throats. Sounds punk to me.
Logan22L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1812 times:
Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 21): Is this thread about the musical style or the term "Punk" as a category?
It's about which band first embodied the ideals of "punk." So, by necessity, we must agree on what "punk" ideals are. I've presented mine, and hence why I see Bobby Dylan and the Hawks, circa 1966 as "punk."
Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 21): The water becomes muddier when you throw in "Glam Rock", "Glitter Rock", "Ska", "New Wave", "Rock A Billy" and possibly other music styles that cross over.
Not really. These genres are less about flipping the audience off, and more about gaining support for a trend. Again, the true nature of punk is to flip off someone - now, is that someone the establishment, or the audience when they disagree with your style? Therein lies the true question.
Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 21): Putting a label on music is unfair to the artist. Record companies and media outlets want to put it in a box.
Kevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 51 Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1807 times:
Quoting Logan22L (Reply 20): This is why I view Dylan's performance with Robbie Robertson and the Hawks on May 17, 1966 as "punk." He fought with the audience, and turned to his band and said: "Play it fuckin' loud." Like a Rolling Stone from that disc is a huge middle finger in the air from Dylan.
Ooops! Sorry Logan! Found it!
Can't disagree w/ that post!
474218, Carl, You will be missed.
25 Logan22L: I was speaking metaphorically. Listen to Dylan's "Bootleg Volume #4." Damn, how many times have I said this in this thread??? Disc #2 is Dylan with R
26 Kevinl1011: Sooooo......Dylan Huh? What band was he in?
27 WhiteHatter: Did you get to see this over there? http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...mber/09/dylan_arena_overview.shtml
28 Logan22L: Absolutely, Roy. It was on PBS here in Boston - I watched it twice. Good stuff.
29 Banco: My Generation was the hit, but for a better example, go back one single. Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere was the one that was the attempt to capture a live
30 LHMark: How did we get this far in a discussion about proto-punk and the punk attitude without mentioning the Velvet Underground? Their delight at exposing th
31 Logan22L: Four years ago I played bass for a set doing the entire "White Light White Heat" album at the Zeitgeist Gallery here in Cambridge. Even Willie Alexan
32 Bobster2: Well, Jim Morrison was convicted of exposing himself at The Doors infamous Miami concert. I guess you could call that a "jab at the audience". Did Dyl
33 Logan22L: Indeed. Good stuff. Still that was 1968 or 69 IIRC. And after that, the Doors sounded just like they have always sounded (not a bad thing, BTW). Dyla
34 Bobster2: I was a teenager during the 60's and I liked all of Dylan's music. I never paid attention to the people who called him "Judas", in fact, I didn't know
35 Logan22L: Or pen such lines as "The ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face."
36 Srbmod: That was actually first said by Ringo Starr in the interview scene of "A Hard Days Night", released a year before the Daltrey reference. Some folks c
37 Slider: I'd say it's both... But for the record, the first would probably be the Velvet Underground.
38 Lindy: You are talking about Punk bands in USA only right? Best "REAL" punk bands are from Europe, especialy from GB. I've been listening to punk music mysel
39 Srbmod: Let's see, who were the bands that really inspired the the British Punks of the late 1970s...... The Ramones The New York Dolls Iggy Pop/The Stooges