Airic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 341 times:
What do you think?
I believe we should:
Stop sending money to Israel. I'm really no fan of the PLO ways, but the simple fact of the matter is that the Jews came into the region and just drove out Palestinians.
Get rid of the no-fly zones in Iraq, take out all the bugs placed in Saddam's palace and leave the people alone. Why does the US always preach about national sovereignty when we are violating another's? Abraham Lincoln was just as much a dictator as is Hussein.
Reduce our dependency on foreign oil. When we're not get screwed outselves we are out extorting and screwing other countries.
Not Middle east by while were in the Islamic region, the US should stop sending arms to Pakistan. These arms only end up going to militants out to kill innocent Hindus and nationalist Muslims in India, and also goes to the Talebin.
Overall, I think we should stay away from the region a little bit more. The leaders don't want us telling them how to run their own countries. Although I don't agree with the way most Islamic countries are ruled, they can be ruled however they want. We should definetely maintain ties with Israel, like we shoud with al democracies.
Advancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 293 times:
I agree with you Sir. On top of that I would also
slash any kind of aid sent to foreign regimes.
I am afraid our logical proposals will only fall on
deaf ears... because the big boys up there
love to see their businesses thriving.
War and conflict zones are BIG businesses too!!
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 292 times:
How quickly we forget that isolantionism gets us nowhere in this world. Israel is not a "regime", Advancedkid; they are a Parlimentary Democracy. The are surrounded by terrorists, and countries that have no clue as to what democracy is. You pull support away from Israel, and you'll inviate a major Middle East War, which, if Israel is pushed against the wall, will involve the possible use of nuclear weapons.
Whether we like it or not, the United States is the only stable influence on a good portion of the globe. Russia isn't stable enough, and China's influence is as negative as it can get. Simply pulling away from the world does nothing but make things worse. These idiotic calls for cutting all foreign aid, and to isolate from the world has been proven by history to be more damaging then helpful.
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 289 times:
"because the big boys up there
love to see their businesses thriving.
War and conflict zones are BIG businesses too!! "
Speaking as someone who has done business in such countries, before, during and after conflicts, that's BS! Wars disrupt trade routes and impoverish countries (so they can't buy your goods). The only "businessmen" who gain in such situations are smugglers and mafias.
Teddy Roosevelt said "Speak softly and carry a big stick". I tend to agree with that. The U.S. should try to withdraw itself from the world stage. Every day we (outside the U.S.) hear "The U.S. says X", or "The U.S. demands Y". After a while, it just doesn't mean much anymore. I think the U.S. should back off, but still retain the power to make themselves respected, when needed.
Advancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 288 times:
Alpha 1, do you fail to see that the very US
grants aid to the regimes of countries surrounding
Israel whom you rightfully descriibe as non-
I would like to see no aid to anyone.
Remember much of the arms high-tech that the Iraqi
regime had was US supplied.
And Cfalk, yes the conflict in the ME is big business
for for the weapon industry, most of it based in the US.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38599 posts, RR: 79 Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 284 times:
I wholehearted agree with Cfalk, Advancekid and Airic on this one. Unfortunately you (Airic) have opened up another can of worms here and expect the pro-Israel gang to write a chapter in all of their post bashing you for this.
Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the "Industrial Military Complex" in his famous last speech as President in 1961.
The United States is now stuck with a leech (Israel) on its neck with the Middle East situation. I wonder if our economy can even survive with out spreading weapons though out unstable governments.
I am anticipating an 'asswipping' for my remarks here in this forum, but that's OK.
When I return in a few hours once I get out of a meeting, I expect to see post 3-4 paragraphs in length justifying our sick foreign policy.
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 285 times:
The arms industry is but a fraction of the business in other areas, like consumer goods, automobiles, etc. which would result from a stable environment.
Also, I would not say that most of the arms in the region come from the U.S., which is more particular about who they sell weapons to than other countries like China, Russia and France, who will sell to anybody.
RealHigh From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1022 posts, RR: 16 Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 281 times:
I think the US should stay out of the Middle East. I don't see that happening. It serves the US Gov. interest to continue fighting between Israel and Palestine.
I am really shocked by Alpha1's comments about Israel being surrounded by terrorist! That is some of the most racist comment I heard you ever make! I guess you believe that the lives of Arabs are less important than Israeli's. Is that what you meant to say?
That is certainly was the US propaganda machine is feeding its citizens.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 267 times:
RealHigh, how is that racists? You're sounding like those nuts at this Racism conference. That isn't a racists statemet: it's fact!! If you can't see that, you're incredibly blind. All you have to do is look at your history, which includes the killing of Israeli athletes in Munich at the '72 Olympics by Palestinian terrorists, hijackings and the like-plus this current-day suicide bomb madness. Those are terrorists acts, no matter what you might think.
And you make one mistake RealHigh: you assume I was callling ALL Arabs "terrorists", which I never said. I said they're surround by terrorists, which is a fact. They come from Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, but it certainly does not include everyone who lives in those countries.
Until the Arab World, as a rule, drops their demand for the destruction of Israel (Mubarak still has a Middle East map in his office that does not show Israel on it....), that country will continue to defend itself with everything it can. And, if you to step into their shoes, you'd do the same thing. It's absurd to even think of giving up land or cutting a deal while such violence continues.
Having said that, I think both Israel and the Palestinians have made poor choices for current leaders. Sharon has never believed in peace with the Palestinians, and Arafat, despite the change in his public image, hasn't changed one iota from the heyday of the PLO in the 1970's. If both sides had less stringent leaders, you might see some progress in this muddled situation.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 28 Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 263 times:
Realhigh, I have have to agree with you on what you said. I'm an from Israel, and I certainly don't think that they are surrounded by crazed, blood thirsty terrorists (that's how I saw the original post). They aren't terrorists, and the majority of the people want peace. Even the Arabs and the Palestinians within Israel want peace, except for the radical groups that dont.
And I don't know if there are terrorists coming from Egypt or Jordan, the countries have been at peace with Israel for many years now. The only place where there is a serious flow of bombers and the likes is Syria and Lebanon, which really have no strong government or a democracy in place.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38599 posts, RR: 79 Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 259 times:
Why is it that you have to jump down the throats of everyone you disagree with? You are one of the older (age) members here and I would expect more.
Me and Tbar220 have our differences on this issue but I have nothing against him personally. We remain civil. I never make any personal attacks solely because I disagree with them.
For your information Alpha1, I know RealHigh personally. Her father was killed by Israelis when she was 13. He was in bed sleeping while visiting relatives. Israelis 'suspected' that there were terrorist in that village but obviously had no concrete evidence. All 7 people killed in that attack were innocent people and their only crime was being Palestinian.
Your remarks were very racist in content. I realized it and so did Tbar220 who supports Israel.
Jessman From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1506 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 252 times:
For once I agree with Superfly on Israel.
I am pro Israel, Superfly; But I am an isolationist. I do not believe it is the duty of the US to put their nose into the affairs of other countries. That is why I oppose the UN and also I oppose US military presence abroad, with the possible exception of Japan, which has no military force of its own.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38599 posts, RR: 79 Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 248 times:
You are right. As for the UN, I think they have a lot of good intentions. If the UN is going to ask the US for military assistance, then other countries should be willing to put up the necessary military support as well.
I do believe that Jews deserve their own homeland just as the Palestinians do! Jerusalem should be an autonomous region or like the Vatican.
Jessman From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1506 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 244 times:
I tried to post this before, but I cannot see it so here goes again.
I agree with superfly/AdvancedKid/etc. on this one. I actually would like the US to be isolationist. I don't think it's the correct role of the US to play "world police"
We in the US have enough troubles with racism, poverty and the like to keep us occupied with ourselves.
I'm not against humanitarian aid, food, clothes and the like; But Guns, soldiers, and tanks should not be used in conflicts that do not explicitly involve the US.
Just my two cents.
N863DA From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 48 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 242 times:
One must consider that it is a WAR (albeit undeclared) - it's going on at the moment.
In the war, people will die - innocent people (ON BOTH SIDES) will die. RealHigh, I do understand why you feel vitriolic to the Israelis, but one who is detached more than RealHigh must consider the bigger picture, (and also realize that in war, innocent people do die).
For me personally, I agree that the US should pull out of the Middle East - at least then, America would be less of a 'imperialistic enemy' to the rest of the Islamic/Muslim/Arab (or combination thereof) world.
However, until that time comes, I feel strongly enough to agree with N400QX. I feel that we shouldn't be there, granted, but the very fact that we are should mean that we are 100% behind Israel, albeit without Sharon at the head.
But then of course, we also have to consider that he was elected and thus the majority of Elegible voting Israelis voted for him. (Some of you may advocate scrapping this democracy - or debate its existence in the first place - but it certainly in place and verifiable.)
Food for thought. Everyone has an opinion. We're not berating Superfly and RealHigh for their opinions - so please don't berate us for our opinions, as you are currently doing.
I will not get into 'Liberal' versus 'Conservative', because it is not relevant, but it would seem that both RealHigh and Superfly do not tolerate our opinions - and yet they force us to accept theirs. It's give and take here, people. We are just as entitled to believe that Israel is the 'greater good' in this conflict, as you are to believe that they are not. Not tolerating our opinions makes you as ignorant and closeminded as the worst fundamentalist Palestinians, Israelis, KKK members or any other extremist group.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38599 posts, RR: 79 Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 231 times:
I am note berating anyone elses opinion in this thread. Did you comprehend my above post? I thought I was rather humble in my language. I can't speak for RealHigh but I can certainly speak out against the injustices our country is supporting worldwide including Israel. I can only imagine what it is like to loss a parent. When I see a onesided story on the major networks that are strongly in favor of Israel , It all adds up. The rest of the world thinks we are crazy for supporting this blatant abuse of human rights by Israel.