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Secret US-Prisons In "New Europe"  
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3616 times:

That shows how the current US government wants to distribute democracy in the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Quote:
The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

Now I know why e.g. Poland (part of what the US government calls "New Europe") is so liked by the US.

-Shame on the governments of these countries for becoming henchmen of this inhuman US activities .
After the incidents in the known prisons Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, I don`t want to know how they are treating the prisoners in a secret prison. And we are speaking about suspects, who never saw a lawyer or judge, and not every suspect is guilty.
-Shame on the US for this, anyway.

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 13:45:22]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
214 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3603 times:

Just a revival of an old conspiracy theory started by the Kerry campaign during last year's presidential elections in the US.


I wish I were flying
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3591 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
Shame on the US in any case.

Blah, blah, blah . . . do you troll the web along with a few other hate filled Euro A-Netters in hopes of finding your NEXT anti-American theme of the day?

I tire of your anti-American rhetoric all the time . . . perhaps you'd like to find somewhere else to post your drivel.

Do you presume that the US is the only country that does this? Are you so naive as to believe this type of activity has not gone on for decades; not just the last couple of years?

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
Shame on the US in any case.

 redflag 
Shame on the countries that promote and support terrorists - there's where the same lies - not with the US.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3588 times:

Oh dear, another bash the USA thread  Yeah sure

If you're going to bash them, at least do it properly, like saying that they are all morbidly obese, or that American football sucks  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineEI747SYDNEY From Ireland, joined Oct 2005, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3582 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
If you're going to bash them, at least do it properly, like saying that they are all morbidly obese, or that American football sucks

hahahahahaha

Rob



''Live life on the edge, Live each and every day like it's your last, Hell you only live once''
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3576 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Blah, blah, blah . . . do you troll the web along with a few other hate filled Euro A-Netters in hopes of finding your NEXT anti-American theme of the day?

I tire of your anti-American rhetoric all the time . . . perhaps you'd like to find somewhere else to post your drivel.

Do you presume that the US is the only country that does this? Are you so naive as to believe this type of activity has not gone on for decades; not just the last couple of years?

Read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Shame on the countries that promote and support terrorists - there's where the same lies - not with the US.

So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

ANCFlyer, I don`t hate the US!! It`s a great country!!! I critcize the actions of this terrible government, which will go into history of one of the worst of the US!

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 13:58:40]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3572 times:

Washington Post == Izvestiya  Smile


I wish I were flying
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

Of course, you are either with us or against us  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3547 times:

Not another "let's bash America" thread  bored 

Anyways I'd rather have these idiots somewhere behind bars, then having them run around freely in the world killing civilians...


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3546 times:

On the assumption that this is true - and the Washington Post should have named the 'Eastern European' countries that have these detention facilites, then the USA and the countries with these facilites may face significant problems. The article discusses the reasoning why these facilites - basicly torture facilities operated by the CIA - and why they came about. The information obtained from torture is often useless and worse, is often coutnerproductive. These facilites, in effect, are useless too.
The existance of these facilites may be violations by the USA and the site countries of a number of International treaties and agreements. Worse, they may add fuel to the fires of terrorism against the USA, the opposite of the goals of the War on Terror. I think President Bush and VP Chenny may face charges from international tribunals for this and related policies when they leave office. Then again, President Bush doesn't like to travel to them 'furrin' countries anyway.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3545 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
Read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....html

I read it. So frickin what?

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
So, if I don`t abuse prisoners, I promote terrorists? What a great applied logic.

Damn, your ALMOST as good at twisting words as Shoenorama . . . I didn't say that . . . at all. Get over it . . . you're laughable . . .

The shame you so readily hang on the US belongs with the countries that promote and support these terrorist assholes . . . you ought to be glad a few countries in this world stand up to their sorry asses . . . instead of blindly and ignorantly assuming "if we just keep quiet and keep a low profile no one will fuck with us". . . a demonstration of sublime ignorance.

And before you start babbling about my support of prisoner abuse I suggest you do some research into some of my previous posts on the subject. We wouldn't want you talking completely out of turn, now would we?

 irked 


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3533 times:

Here is a German link for that.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,382864,00.html

The whole issue really is a shame. This American administration is befouling freedom, democracy, and Christianity, by claiming to work for those.

We should find out which countries those are and then kick 'em out of the EU. Kick them out without opening the door first.

And who supported GWB on his "holy" mission??? The little preacher's daughter from the Honecker-Reich, same person always complaining about the human rights situation in Turkey.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
The shame you so readily hang on the US belongs with the countries that promote and support these terrorist assholes . . . you ought to be glad a few countries in this world stand up to their sorry asses . . . instead of blindly and ignorantly assuming "if we just keep quiet and keep a low profile no one will fuck with us". . . a demonstration of sublime ignorance.

And before you start babbling about my support of prisoner abuse I suggest you do some research into some of my previous posts on the subject. We wouldn't want you talking completely out of turn, now would we?

So, why you criticize my post? Only because I`m criticizing the actions of your government. It looks like, you don`t care about what happens in your name as an American.

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3529 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Thread starter):
interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives

SOME ! There in GuantanamoBay (Havanna-East for RyanAir) are "some" 550 people, most of them just "guilty" of having been soldiers in the Taliban ruled army of Afghanistan or having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda. As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists, they can interrogate them on the NorthPole, in Antarctica or wherever they like to do so. True, they should keep up standards and behaviours and NOT embark onto some childish amusements like in AbuGhraib, BUT rather do such interrogations swiftly. To interrogate people who got captured in Nov-01 does not make much sense in 2005 . To do that interrogation business swiftly and thoroughly can in the end save dozens of lives .


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3522 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 11):
We should find out which countries those are and then kick 'em out of the EU. Kick them out without opening the door first.

Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.
Now they allow concentration camps on their ground.

Axel

[Edited 2005-11-02 14:16:08]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 12):
why you criticize my pos

well, your criticising the Bush-Jr government shows that you are NOT WITH the USA but AGAINST the USA. Keep a distance to US-airports, the free ticket for Havanna-EAST will be waiting for you !
-
 wave 


User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3507 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 14):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

But I think the overwhelming attraction of  dollarsign  spoke louder than dignity and those "little moral" issues at hand. Amazing how history repeats itself.

I don't want to create any polemics, since we don't know which european countries are indeed involved, but at least one of them ceased to exist for 200 years due to, in part, the greed of its own politicians and total lack of respect for its own population.

Alex


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3498 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
(Havanna-East for RyanAir)

I thought it is Miami-South (or Washington-South?) for Ryanair. Big grin

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 12):
So, why you criticize my post? Only because I`m criticizing the actions of your government. It looks like, you don`t care about what happens in your name as an American.

OK, no offense, but I honestly don't understand your second sentence? However, my best answer, as I understand your comment is: I do care about what people think of this country. Not about me personally. I don't care that we have to use strong arm tactics to get the job done. It's a fact of life . . . it has always been so . . . it will always be so. And we are not alone in this - never have been . . . someone has to play hardball with the bad guys, and I don't care to have the US constantly beat up for it - since we are the coutry that stepped up to the plate, took the lead - along with the UK - and will eventually rid all decent nations of this terrorist scum . . . if it takes a few kicks in the ass on some terrorist suspects ass to get the job done - so be it. Don't say Shame on the countries that are fighting the fight - you should say shame on the countries that are sitting back in the cheap seats watching the fight . . . and reaping the benefits I might add.

And then you stuck this edit in on me by surprise . . . thanks for that . . .

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 5):
I don`t hate the US!! It`s a great country!!! I critcize the actions of this terrible government, which will go into history of one of the worst of the US!



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda.

Terrorists . . . .

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists, they can interrogate them on the NorthPole, in Antarctica or wherever they like to do so.

Would you care to enlighten the rest of us as to how we should tell the difference???


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3487 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 14):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

And those who don't can just BEAT IT!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
SOME ! There in GuantanamoBay (Havanna-East for RyanAir) are "some" 550 people, most of them just "guilty" of having been soldiers in the Taliban ruled army of Afghanistan or having been attending military courses offered by el-Qaeda. As soon as the USA allow the majority of them to get out, and only keep real terrorists

I remember those British Gitmo prisoners. After they were set free the British police arrested them and they were all released from that without any charges within 24 hours. That leaves the question how many "real terrorists" the US has there.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3478 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Yes, that`s how it has to be. These countries were admited to the EU because we expected them to respect human dignity.

And those who don't can just BEAT IT!

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this particular issue, that sounds horribly reminiscent of Chirac's view about the new countries missing a good opportunity to keep quiet. They are sovereign nations and make their own decisions. Just because you don't like or agree with it is irrelevant; saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3470 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.

Especially given Germany's past history  Yeah sure



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3467 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 18):
someone has to play hardball with the bad guys

I give you an example. The CIA had to release prisoners fron Guantanamo, after holding them for years, because e.g. they were taxi drivers at the wrong time at the wrong place. Ok, the US army gave them 100 $ as compensation  Yeah sure .
100 bucks for 2 years innocent in prison. Perhaps, if he was abused before he could have get 150 bucks.
You are playing hardball with innocents. And you can`t play hardball as a civilized and democratic country. The regime in the USSR also said that they had to play hardball.
Playing hardball is the wrong way and it uprises more terrorists!

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this particular issue, that sounds horribly reminiscent of Chirac's view about the new countries missing a good opportunity to keep quiet. They are sovereign nations and make their own decisions. Just because you don't like or agree with it is irrelevant; saying that if they don't like your position they can get lost is stupendously arrogant.

No, you're actually wrong about that.

By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the european court for human rights.

Violating those standards would be a severe offense and must have consequences. It is still the question, however, if the countries in question are actually members of the EU.


Sad to see the USA discarding the actual core of what they're supposed to stand for - it's a sad case of suicide for fear of dying.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
No, you're actually wrong about that.

By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the european court for human rights.

Violating those standards would be a severe offense and must have consequences. It is still the question, however, if the countries in question are actually members of the EU.

First thing here, Klaus, the European Court of Human Rights is not an institution of the EU. The European Court is, but that is not the same. A common mistake made by many.

Any EU nation can withdraw from abiding by the Human Rights Court at any time without affecting their EU membership in the slightest.

The next part is that if any breach of various charters of Human Rights in the EU is identified, that can be pursued either in the courts of the constituent country, or, if they are a signatory, through the Court of Human Rights. As such, there are recourses to any prospective breach in any EU state. Quite frankly, it is none of the business of German, French, British or anyone else to make such outrageous statements as saying that they should get lost, they should be evicted from the EU or so forth. That is arrogance of the highest order, and those that say such things have, to coin a phrase, lost an excellent opportunity to keep quiet.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
25 ME AVN FAN : no. There were somewhere between 130'000 and 200'000 people who over the years attended such courses. Most of them have returned to normal lives in E
26 NoUFO : And completely irrelevant. Even if that is the case, compromising human rights would affect their membership. It's not about Thorben's position but r
27 Pope : I'd like someone to address the ticking bomb scenario. If you had evidence that a detanee / prisoner / terrorist (whatever term you want to use) had i
28 Banco : Wrong. I quote: "By signing the accession treaties they recognized the common european standards for human rights, including the power of the europea
29 Mika : Send them outta there, they need to take their dirty business elsewhere.
30 Oldeuropean : But how could the US alleges they want to distribute democracy in the middle east, when they are the worst example? There are ten thousands, that`s n
31 Pope : These are two completely separate issues. Democracy is allowing people elect their own leaders. Nobody can say that the US has done anything but fost
32 NoUFO : Banco, I didn't say you were factually wrong, I said that your claim was irrelevant. The European Court was mentioned by Klaus but he adressed your re
33 N1120A : This is no conspiracy theory. I know people who are representing clients who have been held and tortured by US agents in North Africa and Eastern Eur
34 Mika : I think he is refering to the way Bush was or was not democratically elected the president of the USA. Surely it was no clear victory at any point fo
35 NoUFO : No, Democracy is unimaginable without respect for Human Rights even if you catch your enemies "red handed". To get this straight: I do not doubt your
36 Post contains images Banco : Look, Klaus made a statement telling me that I was wrong and including a factually incorrect statement. I responded putting the record straight. End
37 Klaus : You were erroneously stating that they could violate human rights standards any way they liked because of their "unlimited sovereignty". By their acc
38 Post contains images NoUFO : Part of Klaus' statement was factually wrong, but that doesn't affect the core of what he has said: "By signing the accession treaties they recognize
39 Miamiair : Me, personally, would give them flying lessons off the ramp of a C-130 in flight. 9/11 was totally done in the US. I personally don't give a rat's ass
40 ModernArt : Most Western European governments are probably not only aware of these detention facilities they are probably in complicit agreement with their locat
41 Klaus : What part, exactly? Even regardless of actual, provable guilt? Then you're denouncing everything the USA is supposed to stand for and you could just
42 Post contains images Banco : I never said any such thing. I never even used the phrase "unlimited sovereignty", so since you decided to put it in inverted commas as a quote, I wo
43 NoUFO : Apparently, you were wrong when you claimed that signing the accession treaties would include the recognition of "the power of the European Court for
44 Klaus : I don't see an error in that... the court is an indispensable part of the european human rights standards. You can't refuse to acknowledge it and sti
45 Post contains images Banco : You can't even be bothered to read, can you Klaus?
46 NoUFO : Whatever, it is merely sort of a technical aspect that should not distract from the fact that an EU membership includes commitment to Human Rights. T
47 ME AVN FAN : all about democracy is OK if you are WITH them but nothing if you are NOT, because you then are regarded as being AGAINST them.
48 Klaus : Human rights are not optional in Europe, so I disagree with your claims. It's a part of that commitment... So I see we're in agreement.
49 Banco : I never said they were. Yet another lie. Yet again you can't even be arsed to read the comments you then reply to. I've had it with this discussion w
50 B744F : The great good in the eyes of who? Don't you realize what type of hate this breeds from the rest of the world? I sure can. Looking at actual history,
51 Pope : Our laws apply on our territory. Are you arguing that US law should apply and be applied everywhere around the world? A claim of human rights by a gr
52 B744F : Stop right there. Read a book on history, learn about the not so democratic actions of the CIA since WWII, then get back to me about "the US did noth
53 Pope : Of course you're right. The US deserved 9/11. I can always count on you to make yourself look like an ass. You are your own worse enemy.
54 Klaus : That would have been the inevitable consequence of your claims. You simply didn't make your point convincingly. Deal with it.
55 B744F : Calm down there buddy, stop rearranging my words to fit your illogical and ignorant opinions. Please point out where I said deserved. You claimed the
56 Banco : Bullshit. Read what I wrote. It's not an point, it's a fact. Deal with it.
57 NoUFO : It is not or not only their claim - it is first and foremost our claim. One reason for why fundamentalists have no apparent problem recruiting new fo
58 N1120A : International treaties to which the US are a party are also the law of the US. That includes conventions against torture.
59 B744F : The Constitution was writen as a document not just for American citizens as well. Of course they didn't consider anyone but white land owners as citi
60 Klaus : You claimed above that an EU member could choose to disregard the European Court for Human Rights at will without its membership status being affect
61 MDorBust : OH NOES!! The terrorists aren't being given proper tea and crumpets! Someone call the UN, I'm sure which ever third world dictator that is in charge o
62 N1120A : Yeah, I am sure Canada would like to know that they are a third world country with a dictatorial regime. Moron
63 Banco : No. You're confusing two separate issues, whether wilfully or because you simply can't be bothered I don't know. As I said, the Court of Human Rights
64 B744F : Yes that's exactly what everyone is demanding Why not just move to Saudi Arabia? You would fit in perfectly
65 MDorBust : Sorry, I stopped paying attention to that dog and pony show after Libya was the head. Truly a joke.
66 B744F : Wait, you mean the same Libya whos leader and military were trained and funded by the CIA?
67 MDorBust : You think I created the geneva conventions? There are very good reasons for the absolute repression of illegal combatants by any means. Believe it or
68 Mir : In places where the US maintains control, like US military bases, then yes, US law should be applied. I find the thought of US secret prisons outside
69 B744F : HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA Sorry that was too funny. You mean the millions killed in WWII, Vietnam, etc? I dare say you honestly do
70 MDorBust : I wasn't aware that we were conducting non-precision unrestricted bombing of Iraqi and Afghani population centers in an attempt to degrade industrial
71 Post contains images JeffM : We also have some "secret" bases in New Mexico and Nevada where we conduct "tests" on aliens and their spacecraft. Oops. I told you, now I have to ki
72 Pope : The notion that the US Constitution affords protection to non-US citizens who are outside the US is absurd. These people are being caught red handed w
73 Greasespot : If it is a necessary evil then why and hod yourself up as the beacon of human rights. The problem is not the US constitution being upheld for the peop
74 Post contains images N1120A : If the US is running these prisons based on their diplomatic ties to certain countries, they are then US soil and subject to the Constitution. If the
75 Pope : Isn't that something for the host country to decide. Certainly it's not the US's job to enforce Polish (for example) law in Poland. If an agent of th
76 Klaus : And you think the absence of a direct enforcement capability for the Human Rights Court automatically meant that a severe breach of the common standa
77 B744F : Just because you were a mindless drone doesn't automatically give you full understanding of the topic at hand, it just means you were good at holding
78 MDorBust : No, but haveing been an MP does. I assure you, I suffered through enough courses and refreshers on military and international law to make me consider
79 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Nowhere does that article mention Poland by name as one of the countries involved, so watch it with your accusations...it could be Romania for all yo
80 B744F : Oh OK. I get it now, the bombing of cities was "an attempt to degrade industrial production and eliminate garisson forces" Thats an interesting spin
81 B744F : Yes of course, you take a course and claim to be an expert, this happens quite often on the internet I would love to see where in the text it claims
82 N1120A : Sure they do. And their religious beliefs. And their skin color. I am
83 B744F : I say for the second time, read a book
84 DL021 : Chirp....chirp...chirp... Hey, question: Since you say that all books are biased but yours why don't you tell us which books you get your info from?
85 B744F : Please see: every CIA action since WWII
86 Nordair : The Washington Post??? That filthy rag?!? I still have not forgiven them for being part of that left wing conspiracy against poor President Nixon. Bre
87 MDorBust : I wonder about the historians that would laugh at that. I would love to see you name an instance where combat operations were carried out during WWII
88 B744F : Firebombing of Tokyo ring a bell? Thats just for starters. Read a book Not really considering I debate and smash your illogical opinions with ease. R
89 MDorBust : I was truly hopeing you would trot out a retard answer, like Tokyo. Most people, unlike you, know that during WWII, Japanese war material production
90 B744F : LOL again!!! Man you are too much. You are laughing in the face of history by stretching it to your liking. You have no idea what you are talking abo
91 MDorBust : Actually, most of what I said came from the shrine in Tokyo dedicated to the victims of the American firebombings. I failed to tell you what language
92 Post contains images ANCFlyer : MDorBust . . There you go again, arguing with the Tin Foil Hat Man . . . haven't we had this conversation before??? Pure bullshit Alireza . . . . Same
93 SRQCrosscheck : "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shall love thy neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse
94 ANCFlyer : And if that doesn't work, hunt them down and kill their asses . . .
95 B744F : That is a sidestep to the actual issue at hand. The TARGETS were civilians, just like the fire bombings in Europe by both sides, they were specifical
96 DaddiesSecret : The US regularly supports terrorists. Assuming the notoriously flawed US secret services are correct in what they say. America doesn't have friends i
97 Clipperhawaii : People just have to deal with the U.S. and what WE want to do. Make no mistake though, the United States has spread more democracy around the world th
98 Banco : And the part of my post which you failed to quote states: "Your second paragraph, whether or not a member state subscribes to the Court of Human Righ
99 DaddiesSecret : ha,ha,ha .... spreading democracy by overthowing the democratic prime minster of iran? chile? spreading democracy by loaning money and providing inte
100 Post contains links Thorben : Quiet shocking what some people say, here. Let me make my point clear: Torture, however you call it or in whatever form, is N E V E R acceptable. And
101 ME AVN FAN : IF the reports in question are correct, then it is the USA who "place" the suspects in the guest-countries. If so, the USA also has certain, at least
102 ANCFlyer : What you and others do here is broad brush stroke the entire country based on the actions of a few 'soldiers' (term doesn't apply any longer as they
103 Post contains images Gkirk : You just realised that now?
104 ME AVN FAN : I never "presumed" such things to have been or to be actions of the whole country, but it of course is a handful ..... just the same kind of handful
105 LTBEWR : There are news reports this am on CNN (Thursday) that the EC will be investigating the alleged existance of these facilities and what is going on, to
106 ANCFlyer : Can you prove this? Or is this supposition on your part? I'm sure if it could be proven, that would be quite a relief to the nations of the earth. Si
107 ME AVN FAN : sorry, it is YOU who have to prove the contrary, as YOU are the ACCUSER and accuse them to be this and that. I simply tell you that this is NOT the c
108 Post contains images Mir : And people are caught every day inside the US with tools or schemes for killing Americans. Timothy McVeigh got a trial. Is he any more deserving of t
109 Post contains links Thorben : I read today that the EU will investigate this. Source (sorry, German): http://www.gmx.net/de/themen/nachric...cc=0000001603000150777819ChAC.html I th
110 Post contains images ANCFlyer : No, I don't actually. As terrorists sleeper cells have been uncovered in the all the places I mentioned - and more - I would surmise my accusation is
111 Pope : Tim McVeigh was a US citizen caught on US soil. As such he was clearly entitled to the protections afforded our citizenry under the US constitution.
112 Post contains images ANCFlyer : And it's easier to let the US take the lead than to do it yourself . . . with a few notable exceptions . . .
113 Thorben : The world will not be safer. Actions like the ones the US is doing will finally turn against them, because people will get angry when they get to kno
114 Pope : I don't know how. I can only presume that you are referring to something in Section 1 of the 14th amendment as the other sections related to the appo
115 ME AVN FAN : your accusation is wrong by 90%. Very few "sleeper cells" ever have been found. Most is just supposition and accusation. As I stated before there may
116 ME AVN FAN : THIS however is something I really DO agree !
117 ME AVN FAN : - Interesting. BUT does helping the USA with investigations into alleged terrorism violate human rights ? Does putting infrastructure at the disposal
118 Thorben : OK, thanks for clarifying that. Which law prohibits the federal government doing these things, then? That's why they often let countries like Egypt,
119 B744F : 99.999% of the time, torture is useless in terms of extracting intelligence. The world is a safer place? Tell that to any country recently struck by
120 Pope : Could you imagine how many more acts would have occured if intelligence agencies hadn't stopped them? You will never stop 100% of the terrorist act,
121 FDXMECH : Let me pose a question. Do you think the US should have supported the USSR during WW2? A country run by Stalin, one of the 20th centuries worst tyran
122 NumberTwelve : Sorry, when people critizise right wing christian fundamentalist governments he doesn't show that he is against the USA - he shows that he is against
123 B744F : First of all you incorrectly claim you are stopping terrorist attacks by torturing people. Secondly, you fail to realize you are instead provoking mo
124 Post contains images Clipperhawaii : I just have to laugh when people absolutely deny that the United States has THE leading role, has been, and will continue to be the leader in spreadin
125 FDXMECH : B744F Should we have been the USSR's ally during WW2?
126 B744F : Ever heard of Pol Pot, Pinochet for starters? Good idea, check out the book Presidents Secret Wars. Although I seriously doubt you've stepped foot in
127 FDXMECH : But prior to victory, should we have supported a government with so much blood on its hands?
128 Pope : The idiocity of that statement is proven by the very fact that your allowed to continue to post your ridiculous unsubstantiated statements that are a
129 ME AVN FAN : you WERE the USSR's ally during WW2 ! General Eisenhower on D-Day said "this morning we have started, in conjunction with our great Russian allies, t
130 FDXMECH : Yes, I know. But should we have been?
131 Post contains links Oldeuropean : The search for the prisons begins: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/03/eu.cia/index.html This for the American supporters of these actions:
132 FDXMECH : This question dovetails perfectly with this posting. The US fought on the side for freedom during WW2. Should we have allied with such a bloodthirsty
133 Klaus : Banco, I think my point is quite clearly illustrated by the political reactions that have begun to emerge.
134 B744F : Unsubstantiated only to the ignorant Not a fan of history? Please see, the rounding up of dissenters during WWI, Vietnam, etc. There are people still
135 UAL777 : Auschwitz? Dachau? French Guiana? All shining examples..... Either or. And by the way, you have NO idea what you are talking about. I believe that th
136 Aloges : You need to be slapped for that. Well someone has to be an EXPERT on something since you obviously lack the capacity. Newsflash, WW2 ended sixty year
137 Klaus : Have you stopped to think why the United Europe of 2005 has a rather firm foundation on human rights? No? Okay, that explains it. Ah, the blessings o
138 FDXMECH : What?!?! Where did you come upon this revelation?
139 UAL777 : Look shit happens. Im sorry boys and girls, but you can't be nice to the enemy. They bomb their own people without remorse, women and children are ju
140 Prebennorholm : OMG, 139 a.net posts based on a Washington Post article - mirrored in Der Spiegel !!! Couldn't we just put Washington Post, Der Spiegel, and maybe the
141 Klaus : Even if that was a valid point it would still miss the mark - a large proportion of the prisoners have turned out to be accidental bystanders who jus
142 Post contains links Tbar220 : HRW Identifies Poland or Romania as Location of Secret CIA Prison The Bush administration is refusing to confirm or a deny a Washington Post account t
143 B744F : Nothing more than an animal, no better than the people you pretend to be morally superior to History? They classify the enemy in such broad terms, ho
144 NoUFO : This should of course read "why torture anyway", since torture is not "only" inhumane but also a blatant obstacle to investigations and prosecutions.
145 Post contains images Aloges : There are a select few things I don't tolerate. Abusing the Shoa for knee-jerk propagandistic drivel is one of them. I don't care if you think Hitler
146 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Totally unqualified and unjustifiable statement. . . . .
147 DaddiesSecret : Sorry I forgot that Armies were employed on their brains, and not their ability to follow orders unquestionably..
148 DaddiesSecret : Hmm, Linsey Englund and the rest of her crew struck me as particularly intellectual.
149 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Nope, she's an idiot (and now justifiably a prisoner), and so are the other morons involved with that escapade. Don't broad brush it Hero . . . makes
150 DaddiesSecret : Oh please, the worst thing you can possibly do is pick up on someones grammer or spelling it gives the impression that you've lost the arguement. I e
151 ANCFlyer : What you know about the US Military I could piss into a thimble I'm guessing. So arguing or even discussing the topic of "robotic" US military troops
152 Post contains links DaddiesSecret : we've heard all about the US Military link 1 link 2 link 3 etc.. etc..
153 DaddiesSecret : Calm down, calm down. It's only a forum. Actually, it's been proven that a draftee filled army are less likely to kill people than a professional sta
154 ANCFlyer : If I got any more relaxed I'd be asleep . . . . unfortunately I'm working . . . Source? In all the "Links" you provided the Army represented was a dr
155 Post contains links Thorben : ANC, if you are not interested in the stories of Vietnam or Korea, than look at more recent (the 777) things. http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?s
156 Banco : Of course. But what you failed to grasp was that I never disputed that.
157 Joni : Well I think it's a no-brainer that these secret prisons, if they exist, are illegal. If I capture, imprison and torture individuals that I suspect h
158 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Excellent info Thorben So - one has to ask one's self . . ."Self! There is a mass grave out there in Afghanistan with 3000 bodies in it!!! Why hasn't
159 Kevinl1011 : Well then....now that EVERYONE knows about it, they're not so secret anymore. I guess that kills this thread. NEXT!!!
160 Clipperhawaii : Laughable. What else can one say about that mind set? That's good. In war you WANT to kill and not pussy foot around. The U.S. has the best trained p
161 Thorben : Why?
162 Post contains links DaddiesSecret : More behavior of US Army 2003:- link Yes, I'm sure that they are 'only a small minority' and that 'they will be punished'. It is actually quite irrele
163 ME AVN FAN : - No alternative, as otherwise Nazi-Germany would have expanded eastwards and would have become stronger again no alternative, except that FDR in Yal
164 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Not one mention of it in either of the two sources you provided above. . . . . Other than that, it just doesn't wash with me . . . are you - or Democ
165 ME AVN FAN : uoting FDXMECH (Reply 130): you WERE the USSR's ally during WW2 ! Yes, I know. But should we have been? - No alternative, as otherwise Nazi-Germany wo
166 ANCFlyer : ""Criminal charges against seven soldiers Specialist Walls was charged with assault, maltreatment and failure to obey a lawful order. Specialist Joshu
167 Miamiair : I am begining to think that DaddieSecret is B744F's offspring, or is it the other way around. I need a 20' ladder, because the shit sure is getting de
168 Klaus : And that prompted you to even resort to personal insults how exactly...?
169 FDXMECH : So better we lose the USSR to Germany and risk losing the war or greatly prolonging the war to avoid becoming complicit? Please refer to ME AVN FAN's
170 ME AVN FAN : I in fact DID DO so, in my first posting in this thread. I in fact regard the AbuGhreib matter rather as a dirty "mishap" but mostly DISlike US-Ameri
171 FDXMECH : My apologies. I skimmed right past it.
172 UAL777 : I never said he was alive. What are you talking about? Kind of like France selling weapons to any rogue nation that walks slowly past the door? Or ho
173 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : I agree completely, especially on the last one. Per the rules of engagement, as soon as one of these 'civilians' picks up a weapon in arms against us
174 B744F : That isn't being an American, that is supporting an oppressive dictatorship who loves violence and asks questions after the smoke clears. I don't bas
175 NoUFO : In terms of moral: yes. Legally it is not, because only governmental organisations can commit human rights violations. Human rights are the individua
176 ME AVN FAN : - The term now used for such activities is CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, which covers both the human right violations of government organisations and such
177 Klaus : What a feeble attempt at a diversion. I've never supported anything like that. You, on the other hand, have advocated torture and abuse regardless of
178 UAL777 : Im a former Marine moron. Dont ever talk to me about being scared or not caring less. One of my best friends DIED over there. The point is they are n
179 Klaus : It is not a sign of courage to ditch all the ideals and the essentials that you're supposedly standing for at the first sign of a threat. Especially
180 UAL777 : I am not intimidated by anyone or anything and who are you to say that I have compromised what I stand for? Why do YOU not show outrage at the killin
181 ME AVN FAN : then they are Civilians. And if they do something criminal they are criminals or at least suspected criminals. If they are caught, the law of the cou
182 Usnseallt82 : Not during a time of war.........martial law takes precedence.
183 ME AVN FAN : the WAR in AFGHANISTAN is long over --- and the "War against Terror" is a slogan but NOT a war and does NOT qualify as war in any way
184 Usnseallt82 : You've got to be f*cking kidding me? When have you served over there to come tell me that its long over? Not quite buddy. Don't speak of what you don
185 ANCFlyer : In your opinion . . . . Comments from an Arm Chair General here Navy . . . take them with a grain of salt. I'm always amazed at how many people on A-
186 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : You're right. I don't know why I even entertain these people. I guess I need my nightly potion to settle down a little.
187 Thorben : The problem is, you (and your government) are always bending everything into the position you just need it. You're at war, but captured enemies are n
188 Usnseallt82 : Except those who fight.........we get no protection from the arm chair generals and tree hugging liberals that think our cause is worthless and do ev
189 ANCFlyer : Well, I'll answer this first for you . . . Uncle Sam taught me just fine - and if you'd bothered to do your homework - or read anything I wrote here
190 Post contains images NoUFO : Heaven, no one claims to be a General who knows best about strategies and tactics. I have never seen a battlefield; now should that keep me from thin
191 Usnseallt82 : I'm going to put it to you like I did to ANCFlyer a minute ago.......if one of you guys were to start talking about life in Germany these days, I'd s
192 NoUFO : Same goes the other way around. But if you came across reports claiming that German soldiers are mistreating or even torturing prisoners in Afghanist
193 Post contains images Thorben : Would you mind to explain what your cause is and how your actions fit to that? I did enough homework. "Spiegel". Besides, I don't read NY times. Anyw
194 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Spiegal: I thought I had that backward . . . so much for my spotty German I absolutely agree, you can definitely have an opinion . . . but in many ca
195 US330 : Can't we all just get along........and agree that this subject has a huge gray area in it (as demonstrated by all of these various opinions). I think
196 UAL777 : Welcome to the RR list boys. I think you all know how I feel and I know how you feel. Its refreshing to see SOMEONE who still distinguishes between r
197 B744F : Only to those willing to stretch every law they can get away with Impossible It sure isn't violence fighting violence Like learning from history? Dri
198 US330 : B744F, I purposely wrote my post to try to stop the mudslinging on this thread, and tried to make it as unbiased as possible, yet your comments show j
199 B744F : Mudslinging and close mindedness? Sorry you cannot find that in my reply to your original comments, just a quick debunking of what you stated Ethics
200 Post contains images Klaus : No, there is actually no "grey area". Human rights are universal. There is no human being to whom they don't apply. A temporary suspension of any huma
201 Thorben : Great post, Klaus. The US does not follow the rules and ideals that it claims to spread. So we won't support that. Some here talk of terrorists bombin
202 Prebennorholm : And now a week has passed on this thread, while a thousand journalists have hunted those illegal CIA torture chambres in New Europe. And what did they
203 B744F : What did they find? Do you think they could just look up Secret CIA Prisons in the phone book and find out the addresses? Yes of course, it's mudslin
204 Prebennorholm : Dear 744F, I'm just indicating the motive for those 2nd rate papers to invent such articles. Things like "GWB hate" has become big business these day
205 B744F : No difference between any news organization, just to let you know And you don't even have to make anything up! They do such a good job themselves So
206 Post contains images Klaus : Oh Preben, again trying to embarrass yourself as best you can? DER SPIEGEL is one of Germany's best news sources and basically mandatory reading for a
207 Thorben : I think so, too. Neither "Der Spiegel" nor the Washington Post seem 2nd rated to me. And those prisons? Some states already denied that they had them,
208 Post contains links and images Thorben : http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...37-5E07-4AFD-A3A0-995A84E826F2.htm
209 Post contains images NoUFO : That report reminds me of a father of a child that was allegedly killed by US soldiers. The father said the soldiers were using "poisoned" bullets.
210 Post contains links Thorben : That reminds me of the depleted uranium they use in tank shells. The European Court now invetigates the issue. If they find something, the EU countri
211 ME AVN FAN : A) The "Spiegel" is NOT a "2nd rate paper" but clearly a "top-rate paper" and B) to say that they or their US colleagues "invented" the articles is j
212 UAL777 : Then stop us. The thing that boggles my mind is how you guys sit here and spew this stuff when we are fighting terror and then expect the US to treat
213 NoUFO : You didn't invade Iraq to battle against terrorism. Maybe you picture of the USA is that of a heroic and selfless nation tirelessly fighting the evil
214 ME AVN FAN : there is quite a difference between SS-guards and Wehrmacht-soldiers, a difference to be taken into account
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