Sponsor Message:
Aviation Photography Feedback Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Talking About Level.....  
User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 689 times:

Yes, a discussion such as this comes up every so often......

Had the below shot done for level.

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...60.118ts-iom_man_140412_kn_305.jpg

Trouble is, some airports have very unlevel areas that only the regulars are truly aware of. MAN is a prime example as the airport is actually built on a slight hill which peaks at about the central point of runway 23R/05L. Therefore the Tunisair shot is actually level despite not looking it. Sure, I could rotate it but then the reliable verticals in the background (the terminal and mast on the left, and the red/white mast far right) will lean slightly to the left. As it is, they are perdendicular, which is what is basically requested by A.net. Yes, we have the 'it must feel level if there are no reliable verticals' rule but clearly here there are reliable verticals; so how can one argue with that?

The next shot is currently in the queue, and is another example of a shot 'feeling' unlevel despite the accuracy of many reliable background verticals (in this case the houses and flats on the hill on the left). If you look at the couple of houses to the right of the cluster, heading towards centre frame, you will actually see that they suggest even more CCW rotation is required; however this will just make the slant from right to left even more obvious.

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...5.2059ec-jcv_pmi_240412_kn_310.jpg

So what is it? Verticals or gut feeling? Because we can't have both.

Cheers,

Karl

10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10023 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 675 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have to say, your first shot actually feels level to me, even without looking at the verticals. Given the angle of the shot, it all makes sense to my eyes.

Second one is a little more difficult, but it doesn't feel definitively unlevel to my eyes.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineairkas1 From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 3992 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 664 times:

Unsure of the first one, as it seems level judging the vertical tower on the left.
Second one feels like it needs a bit of CW rotation, I'd level the apron (or both ends of the apron).


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 663 times:

Vik,

Although I consider myself extremely good at judging level, I'm reassured by your response. The second image feels more unlevel, but like I say, those houses suggest otherwise. Considering most of those buildings on the hill are probably very old, my guess is that they aren't actually level. Sometimes it feels like you just can't win - told one minute to use every available reliable vertical, then the next to go simply with your instincts. Levelling will never be a prefect art, and some scenes will always contain references likely to lead to conjecture. Unless an image can be proved definitively unlevel I would prefer the team to give benefit of doubt, especially when dealing with people who are known to be competent at levelling (i.e. those who have very, very few level rejections).

Cheers,

Karl


User currently offlinedendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 663 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Karl
Perhaps you could have taken the advice from the personal that the Screener left you (which you forgot to mention)
Needs CCW, too yellow
The verticals are too short to be reliable and even quite a dramatic ccw would not show them to be wrong.

Quoting JakTrax (Thread starter):
Therefore the Tunisair shot is actually level despite not looking it.

We do not know every airport, we cannot and that one feels as though it needs CCW - as you admit yourself, it does not look it !

The Metroliner needs CW and is likely to be rejected

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 661 times:

Thanks Kas, but I just know whoever screens it would then look at the houses and say that they are leaning. Going by A.net's own rules I see no choice but to use those buildings.

Karl


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 656 times:

Quoting dendrobatid (Reply 4):
Perhaps you could have taken the advice from the personal that the Screener left you (which you forgot to mention)
Needs CCW, too yellow

Screeners aren't always right - especially where it concerns my home airport. I see I'm not alone in my interpretation of level either. While the Tunis doesn't feel level to me, the verticals say otherwise, and I disagree that they're too short - the section of terminal in the frame must be at least 60ft high, and it's not like all verticals don't correspond with one another. If I'd levelled off the horizon you'd soon be pointing out that I should use the verticals. Speaking of the horizon, how come the hills in the distance look level?

The MRW Metro shot I would agree needs rotation to look right (although the verticals are actually currently correct), but I have to say that I most definitely think you are wrong with regard to the Tunisair. I have many recent acceptances from this spot, all of which were levelled in exactly the same way and by the same references. I shoot at this spot day in, day out, and know what is level there and what's not. But it seems my word is not enough and the benefit of the doubt isn't going to be given.

I don't see any difference between the rejected shot and this.....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Nixon



Karl


User currently offlinedendrobatid From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 652 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD SCREENER

Neither is level, take a look.......


Agree that the Jet 2 is not well levelled either!

If verticals are very short such as on the house on the hillside on the Metroliner they are meaningless as they can be several degrees out and still look correct.

The aerial behind the Tunisair is not vertical on your original shot - not far off but enough to leave it feeling wrong

Mick Bajcar


User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 645 times:

The MRW isn't really too important, as I felt from the get-go that it was unlevel. Still, if the ground an aircraft sits on is sloping, it would naturally lead to the lines of the aircraft doing so too. There was a recent pre-screening thread where this was pointed out by Dana, and I fully agree. Take the runway at Lukla for example - you'd expect the aircraft to have a similar tilt in Photoshop to the example you've posted above (but much more pronounced obviously).

Going back to the Tunis, I really didn't want to go off individual aerials as they are too unreliable, however most of the verticals seemed uniform enough. One thing to bear in mind is that I level these from the full-sized images, and make sure to zoom in many times to check the exact angles. With this shot, the terminal actually leans ever-so-slightly to the left.

By the way, the re-levelled MRW Metro shot.....

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...4.3436ec-jcv_pmi_240412_kn_310.jpg

I just don't want this to get rejected now with the comment, "Buildings all lean to the left".

***EDIT***

Here's a re-hash of the Tunis. It does look better now but the terminal left side does lean to the left. Again, I don't want the next person screening it to now turn around and say, "You should have used the verticals".

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...9.5651ts-iom_man_140412_kn_305.jpg

Cheers,

Karl

[Edited 2012-04-26 15:03:09]

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 556 times:

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 8):
I just don't want this to get rejected now with the comment, "Buildings all lean to the left".

Lo-and-behold, the above has happened, as predicted! Of course the linked image above now doesn't exist as it's been shifted to my rejected queue (and now subsequently my appeal queue), so here's the revised link.....

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...4.3436ec-jcv_pmi_240412_kn_310.jpg

It's a no win situation for us photographers and this highlights just how willy-nilly the screening process is!

I would appeal but I doubt it'd fall on sympathetic ears!

Cheers,

Karl

[Edited 2012-05-04 09:30:18]

User currently offlineJakTrax From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 4936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 526 times:

Well, I appealed and the original rejection has been overturned; which I honestly must say surprises me. Thing is, I actually feel sympathetic towards the screener who screened it originally as it was always going to be a tough one with those houses on the hill.

Faith restored in the appeals process.

Karl


Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Talking About Level.....
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format