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Topic: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-26 00:37:28 and read 4913 times.

Hi all,

In the UK the reuse of aircraft registrations is not permitted yet in other countries such as Germany reuse is fine.

Does anyone know which countries can and which cannot reuse? Also once UK reaches G-ZZZZ will it return to G-AAAA or start a new sequence?

Cheers bluesky73

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: emirates773
Posted 2012-11-26 00:52:50 and read 4885 times.

According to the CAA in the UK this is what is the current situation:

There are two different types of registration marks currently issued, in-sequence and out-of-sequence marks. These differ in the fee for registration of each one, see forms and fees. In-sequence registrations have been used since 1919 starting at G-EAAA to G-EBZZ and then starting again at G-AAAA. The current sequence reached G-CBAA during 2001. Each aircraft in turn is allocated the next sequential mark within a range of three blocks of registrations (e.g. if the next mark to be issued is G-CBAA then an in-sequence mark is any between G-CBAA and G-CBCZ which has not already been used, this means there are always 75 in-sequence marks to chose from).

There are no longer any historical registration marks available for issue (i.e. between G-AAAA and the current in-sequence range) unless it is the original aircraft that is being re-registered or restored to the UK Register. Generally an original aircraft can return to any of the UK registration marks that it has previously carried.

Each aircraft is allocated only one in-sequence mark although it is possible for the same aircraft to have an unlimited amount of out-of-sequence marks in its history. Registration marks cannot be re-used on different aircraft even if the original aircraft that carried the marks has been registered overseas or destroyed.

source: CAA Website

Just a couple to start with: Australia re issue registrations e.g VH-EBL on a B747-238 now on a A330-203, Singapore re issue e.g 9V-STE on a A310-324 is now on an A330-343E. Possibly the UAE as well as some VIP aircraft have carried the same marks on differeing frames.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: BrusselsSouth
Posted 2012-11-26 01:50:02 and read 4792 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know which countries can and which cannot reuse?

Not sure about the exact legal conditions, but Belgium definitely reuses since I recently flew on a helicopter (Robinson R44) registered OO-SJC. A quick Google (or Airliners.net) lookup shows that OO-SJC used to be a Sabena Boeing 707.

Regards
BrusselsSouth

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: VV701
Posted 2012-11-26 04:39:57 and read 4636 times.

In Denmark they re-use old registrations. Here are two different Dornier 328 Jets with the same operator and registration, OY-NCP:

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And South Africa is another that reuses registrations. Here are two Comair aircraft both registered ZS-OAO:

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Photo © Louis Vosloo
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Photo © Sean Mowatt


As previously mentioned, Germany reuses registrations. Here are two different LH Boeings both registered D-ABIH:

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Photo © Björn Höglund
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Photo © George Polfliet

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-26 05:05:45 and read 4590 times.

So far it appears to be only UK that doesn't reuse the registration? How about the US can you reuse a reg in US?

I wonder if CAA will change this in future or open up a new sequence after G-ZZZZ? I'm sure it's a legacy thing but seems strange many countries do reuse yet some, especially UK don't.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: VV701
Posted 2012-11-26 06:12:59 and read 4507 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Reply 4):
I wonder if CAA will change this in future or open up a new sequence after G-ZZZZ? I'm sure it's a legacy thing but seems strange many countries do reuse yet some, especially UK don't.

With 25 letters (as the CAA does not use 'Q') and a four letter sequence there are 390,625 different possible registrations in the current system. If they decided to start to use 'Q' then that number would increase to 456,976. That's a huge number of aircraft.

In sequence registrations reached G-CAAA in 2001 - see Thread Opener - and in the middle of this year, eleven years later had progressed to around G-CHAA. That means the CAA have used one third of the available G-Cxxx registrations in eleven years. At that rate the G-Cxxx series will last until 2033, the G-Dxxx (G-Exxxx are already used) series to 2066 and the G-Fxxx series to 2099.

So with a further 19 initial letter registrations beyond "F" available, at the current rate of useage there are sufficient unused registrations to last well into the 25th century. So today I do not think anybody in the CAA will be worrying too much about where to go next.  

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: KFlyer
Posted 2012-11-26 06:28:07 and read 4488 times.

Here in Sri Lanka old registrations are re-used. However, I believe that it is up to the airline to request for the reg.
4R-ALB was originally a 707

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... and now an A330

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Photo © Michael Vollmar

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-26 06:30:19 and read 4485 times.

The US reuses registrations after a certain number of years - I'm not sure of the exact time frame, but there are many photos on A Net of one reg # and two completely different types of aircraft.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bohica
Posted 2012-11-26 07:24:14 and read 4431 times.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
The US reuses registrations after a certain number of years - I'm not sure of the exact time frame,

It is a very short time frame. I remember when I was at ACA when we lost N304UE, a J-41, in a fatal accident in CMH. About a year later, a new executive noticed the gap in the numbering sequence and had the next J-41 delivered registered N304UE. Obviously this created a lot of negative emotions at the airline and over 600 employees signed a petition to have the number changed out of respect for the crew and passengers who died in the accident, as well as all others who were affected by it. ACA changed the registration to N324UE.

Some major corporations in the US will re-register their newest corporate jet with the same N-number that was on the old jet it replaced, giving the old jet a new N-number.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-26 08:34:30 and read 4356 times.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):
So with a further 19 initial letter registrations beyond "F" available, at the current rate of useage there are sufficient unused registrations to last well into the 25th century. So today I do not think anybody in the CAA will be worrying too much about where to go next.

Ha ha fairpoint that is quite a long way off always good to think long term, especially with Easyjet apparently looking at a large order .

Microlite, hot air balloons and having quite a few aircraft registered in later half of alphabet (G-VHOT, G-ZZZA etc must reduce by several decades but agree CAA might not be panicking quite yet.

With the Germans and other countries reusing registrations and many have the 4 digit suffix, X-XXXX they won't ever run out then. Some countries like keeping to certain regs. Lufthansa use D-AI** for airbus industry, D-AB** for Boeing and D-AE for Embraers.

Interesting that UK might be the only country (not confirmed) to not reuse registrations marks.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: AM744
Posted 2012-11-26 13:15:22 and read 4151 times.

Pretty sure in Mexico they are reused. Don't know the details though.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: joost
Posted 2012-11-26 13:17:18 and read 4148 times.

Quoting bluesky73 (Thread starter):
Does anyone know which countries can and which cannot reuse?

Netherlands: a registration can be re-used 30 years after the registration has been withdrawn from the register.

Registrations can be marked as 'never re-use'. This is common practice for registration that have been involved in an accident with (deadly) victims. For example, PH-BUF (which was involved in the Tenerife crash) will never be re-issued again.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 3):
As previously mentioned, Germany reuses registrations. Here are two different LH Boeings both registered D-ABIH:

D-ABYA is also a nice one. The first LH 747 and the first 748 share the reg:


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Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-26 13:44:04 and read 4109 times.

Registrations in Canada can be reused without any restrictions as far as I know. CP recycled many registrations. For example, CF-CPC was used on a Lockheed 14, DC-4, DC-6 and 737-200. C-FCRA was used on a 747-200, DC-10-30 and 747-400.

Quoting bluesky73 (Thread starter):
Also once UK reaches G-ZZZZ will it return to G-AAAA or start a new sequence?

They will never get to G-ZZZZ. Just calculate how many aircraft would have to be registered to reach that point.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: TimRees
Posted 2012-11-26 15:23:32 and read 4030 times.

Countries I can think of that re-use registrations not already mentioned include;

Iceland and Luxemburg

Countries which don't seem to re-register (please correct me if incorrect) include:

Spain, Italy, Portugal, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland.

Spain has a shorter lifespan of registrations left as they are already registering in the EC-LSx range and so are more than half way through their available numbers. When I started spotting in around 1971 they were still using EC-Bxx numbers so at this rate they will run out in only around 50 years! Not that I will need to worry about that.....

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: icelander
Posted 2012-11-26 15:29:52 and read 4025 times.

As Tim mentioned above, Iceland definitely do.

in the last 25 years, TF-FIA has been a 727, a 737, a 757 and a 767.

Mark.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2012-11-26 15:39:15 and read 4009 times.

The UK also has the: -

* M- series registrations, which have been allocated to the Isle of Man
* VP- series reigistrations, which are allocated amongst UK Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories
* VQ- series registrations, which are allocated amongst UK Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories
* VS- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZB- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZC- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZD- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZE- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZF- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZG- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZH- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZI- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZJ- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZN- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZO- series registrations, which are unallocated
* ZQ- series registrations, which are unallocated
* 2- series registrations, which are unallocated

So this might explain why there has never been any interest in reusing registrations!

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-27 09:19:17 and read 3846 times.

I thought VP/ZB etc were all government or military?

Quoting TimRees (Reply 13):
Countries which don't seem to re-register (please correct me if incorrect) include:

Spain, Italy, Portugal, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland.

Thanks Tim so the UK doesn't appear to be only country that doesn't re-use the registration.

Shame UK doesn't have option to keep a reg as some of the Virgin registrations are unique and shame they can't reuse.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-11-27 11:02:43 and read 3821 times.

Air Canada does this all the time. Here are a couple examples:

A DC-8, became an A320:

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Photo © Mark Kryst - YXUphoto



A B737 became an E190:

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Photo © Alain Rioux
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Photo © Todd Martin

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: starlionblue
Posted 2012-11-27 12:59:59 and read 3807 times.

Re-registration can lead to some "issues": http://johnandmartha.kingschools.com...ur-gunpoint-at-the-airport-ordeal/

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-27 19:43:47 and read 3757 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Air Canada does this all the time.

I think that's fairly recent. If memory correct TCA/AC neverr reused a registration before the CP merger.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Newark727
Posted 2012-11-27 20:32:51 and read 3747 times.

I wonder about Bahrain and Oman, they use A9C-** and A40-** most of the time and that's only two letters to choose from. Granted they're pretty small countries.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-11-27 21:45:43 and read 3737 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I think that's fairly recent. If memory correct TCA/AC never reused a registration before the CP merger.

They did for some of the early A320s, they were old DC-8 registrations.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-11-28 02:21:46 and read 3706 times.

Why should reuse of Registration marks be an issue, if the previous owner has deregistered the same.......

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-28 15:27:17 and read 3631 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):
I think that's fairly recent. If memory correct TCA/AC never reused a registration before the CP merger.

They did for some of the early A320s, they were old DC-8 registrations.

Yes, looks like the last 5 DC-8-54F combis, C-FTJO through C-FTJS


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Photo © Bill Campbell


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Photo © Nigel Fenwick


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Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: tan1mill
Posted 2012-11-28 19:54:40 and read 3605 times.

Quoting joost (Reply 11):
Registrations can be marked as 'never re-use'. This is common practice for registration that have been involved in an accident with (deadly) victims.

Does anyone know if this is also true in the US?

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-11-28 21:14:24 and read 3657 times.

I did a quick search of NTSB fatal accidents in the US from 12/01/78-12/01/88 of Boeing aircraft. The reg # of the PanAm 727 which crashed in New Orleans has been reused.

The reg # of the Air Florida 737 which crashed in DC has not been reused and the 'status' of the aircraft is listed as not current - but it does show the reg # still applies to the AF 737.

A search of McDonnell-Douglas shows the reg # of the DC-9 which crashed in Minnesota in April 89 was reused. The World Airways DC-10 which crashed at BOS is listed as deregistered so the number is available.

The Lockheed L-1011 which crashed at DFW - the reg # is unassigned and available.

Some other results - the TWA 800 aircraft reg # was reserved by an individual in Minnesota in July 2011.

The AA 757 which crashed in Columbia is deregistered and the # is available.

The US Air 737 which crashed near Pittsburgh is still registered.

The United Airlines 737 which crashed near Colorado Springs is deregistered and the # is available.

The US Air 737 involved in the fatal runway collision at LAX is deregistered and the # is available.

The PanAm 103 reg # has been reserved since Nov 93 by an individual in Connecticut.

The ValuJet DC-9 reg # has been reserved since Mar 99 by an inividual in Florida.

The United DC-10 which crashed in Souix City reg # is deregistered and available.

The AA DC-10 at Chicago reg # has been used since mid-2007 for a small private aircraft.

Of the 9/11 aircraft

AA Flt 77 reg # has been reserved since 9/15/2006 by an individual in Marylan
AA Flt 11 reg # has been reserved since 9/15/2006 by the same individual
UA Flt 175 reg # has been deregistered and is available.
UA Flt 93 reg # has been deregistered and is available.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: starlionblue
Posted 2012-11-29 03:14:00 and read 3621 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):

Why should reuse of Registration marks be an issue, if the previous owner has deregistered the same.......

Note my reply 18, though I will admit it is a bit of a special case.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bond007
Posted 2012-11-29 06:48:09 and read 3637 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):

Why should reuse of Registration marks be an issue, if the previous owner has deregistered the same.......

I'm not sure anybody implied it was an issue.

Quoting starlionblue (Reply 26):
Note my reply 18, though I will admit it is a bit of a special case.

Yes, that was more of a failure of the police and intelligence folks, rather than an issue with re-registering. As is in the article:

"It would have taken only about a minute on www.FAA.gov for them to search the registration number in question to learn that number had been re-assigned to a different aircraft."


Jimbo

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-11-29 13:27:57 and read 3568 times.

One of the more distasteful reuses of a registration in my mind:

Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, and The Big Bopper died on board a V-Tail Bonanza, registration N3794N.

The registration was turned around and re-used on a 1967 Mooney M20!

 

And that was after the tail number should have become (im)famous.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-11-29 14:15:55 and read 3559 times.

Quoting tan1mill (Reply 24):
Quoting joost (Reply 11):
Registrations can be marked as 'never re-use'. This is common practice for registration that have been involved in an accident with (deadly) victims.

Does anyone know if this is also true in the US?

Only if you pay the annual fee to reserve the registration. Anyone can do that. I think the fee is quite low. It used to be $10 a year

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bond007
Posted 2012-11-29 14:45:21 and read 3555 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Only if you pay the annual fee to reserve the registration. Anyone can do that. I think the fee is quite low. It used to be $10 a year

Yes, although that's not quite the same thing. In this case, the number is simply not being used because you've reserved it, and need to renew it every year - not because the FAA put a 'never re-use' flag on it.

...and yes, still $10/year!


Jimbo

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: bluesky73
Posted 2012-11-29 16:17:45 and read 3533 times.

Also noticed Austrian Airlines reuse registrations. Not sure if they can reuse soon after a de-register or they have to wait so many years?


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Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-01 10:07:26 and read 3425 times.

On the topic of reservation of Registration numbers for a future use at a fee, Can that be done.....something like reserving a domain name.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: Viscount724
Posted 2012-12-03 14:11:17 and read 3278 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 32):
On the topic of reservation of Registration numbers for a future use at a fee, Can that be done.....something like reserving a domain name.

It can in the U.S., for the low $10 per year fee. You don't even have to own an aircraft.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-04 01:41:35 and read 3232 times.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):

It can in the U.S., for the low $10 per year fee. You don't even have to own an aircraft.

$10 seems a low price......Especially for Aviation costwise.

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: KELPkid
Posted 2012-12-04 08:58:09 and read 3202 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 34):
$10 seems a low price......Especially for Aviation costwise.

Having had worked with I.T. with another US government entity (the FCC, or Federal Communications Commission), I wouldn't be suprised if the entire US aircraft registry is maintained by one person on a computer running Microsoft Access   Cue the guy who's going to disprove me now...   

Topic: RE: Re-use Of Reg-numbers In Some Countries?
Username: rfields5421
Posted 2012-12-04 10:51:05 and read 3180 times.

That would be Access 95


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