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Topic: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-03 02:38:29 and read 4370 times.

Majority of the experts on a Tech forum seem very grounded and go to great extend to clarify a doubt, which is clearly welcomed by all.It speak volumes of their confidence in the job they do and their knowledge levels, more so the kind of person they are.
However one does encounter that grouchy, rude person , who may have the knowledge , but not the paitence to explain a situation.It speaks very poorly of such people.

If one joins a forum ... it is to learn something and share knowledge of the field discussed.....if an Individual does not want to share their knowledge , why waste their time and those of others just trying to make someone feel bad.......

My suggestion to such folks is "Grow up"....or be isolated over time.

Also noticed such Individuals at the workplace too........Thankfully they are in a very small minority.......

Wonder what the views of the members on this section of the forum are on this topic.............

A junior worker approaches you for assistance in understanding a job situation technically.....How will you handle it.....So that the Junior learns the right way & gains in confidence.

Views......

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2012-12-03 07:18:09 and read 4297 times.

Spot on, Hawk21M. I often find it difficult to participate here because of the phenomenon you've described so aptly:

Quoting Hawk21M:
However one does encounter that grouchy, rude person , who may have the knowledge , but not the paitence to explain a situation.It speaks very poorly of such people.

I'll use the concorde oxygen thread (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/318021/) as an example in which I offered to answer the question as best I could, all the while qualifying that I didn't know for certain, and then was roundly insulted/lambasted when someone with a better answer chimed in.

It's simply not worth the time to participate anymore when one encounters users with attitudes such as this. Obviously the person in question in my case had an enormous ego and felt the need to flex it. On the other end of the spectrum you have children and teenagers who will often correct you on subjects they know nothing about, even when they are clearly wrong. I have no issue with being corrected by ANYONE if I'm clearly wrong about something, but there should still be some modicum of decency, even through the impersonal medium of an internet forum. This is especially true when someone isn't even blatantly wrong, but speaking from a different perspective. Perhaps I expect too much of people.

It's a very common phenomenon in aviation, really. There is a constant stream of people in this industry who will try to belittle others and attempt to prove they know more than everyone else just to stroke their own egos. We call it "the 10% rule"; meaning roughly 10% of people you work with will generally be near intolerable due to the aforementioned traits. On internet forums, a "30% rule" would probably be more accurate, because the veil of anonymity isn't handled well by many.

So what's the solution? Don't waste your time anymore if/when it stops being fun to participate here.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: tdscanuck
Posted 2012-12-03 08:03:19 and read 4267 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
If one joins a forum ... it is to learn something and share knowledge of the field discussed.....if an Individual does not want to share their knowledge , why waste their time and those of others just trying to make someone feel bad.......

The problem is that some people feel happy by making other people feel bad.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
My suggestion to such folks is "Grow up"....or be isolated over time.

Generally, they're not going to grow up. All we can do is isolate them. This seems to work on a.net...many of the worst offenders have come and gone as they find themselves progressively less welcome due to their own actions.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 1):
It's simply not worth the time to participate anymore when one encounters users with attitudes such as this.

It depends...it may be worth the time for the "bystanders" to see sane and decent posts, even if the person you're actively engaging in is neither. There's a sort of tacit belief on all discussion forums that anything that goes unchallenged is correct.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: mmedford
Posted 2012-12-03 08:24:23 and read 4257 times.

Another problem that I see happen very often around these parts is that. Users will "know" more than those who work in the field. Just because they've read it on these forums by one poster and regurgitate it back to another user.

This annoys me more than anything else; especially when the guilty person is age group (13-15).

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: iowaman
Posted 2012-12-03 09:03:44 and read 4226 times.

A friendly reminder to please keep this dicussion civil and to respect other users and avoid causing flamebait. This thread has the potential to turn sour.

[Edited 2012-12-03 09:04:21]

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: starlionblue
Posted 2012-12-03 09:30:26 and read 4201 times.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
My suggestion to such folks is "Grow up"....or be isolated over time.

Generally, they're not going to grow up. All we can do is isolate them. This seems to work on a.net...many of the worst offenders have come and gone as they find themselves progressively less welcome due to their own actions.

This is one of the main reasons why I am still on A.nut. The offenders are not allowed to ruin the discussion like on many other forums.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: Bellerophon
Posted 2012-12-03 09:41:40 and read 4190 times.

KAUSpilot

...I'll use the concorde oxygen thread here as an example in which I offered to answer the question as best I could...

As your latest post appears to me to be aimed at me, I thought I might reply, in order that other posters might have the benefit of hearing both sides and thus be better able to form a more balanced view.

Your original post, in reply to a question by Smartt1982, contradicted an earlier reply of mine in which I had answered the question posed by the OP.

Allow me to stress that word earlier. It was your post which contradicted mine, and not, as you appear to imply, the other way around.

I posted again, to correct your error, so that readers of this forum would have the correct answer to a simple question, because - as has been said - there is often a tacit assumption, made by many, that anything that goes unchallenged on a forum must be correct.

I also suggested a reason as to why you might have posted as you did, namely that FAA regulations do not apply to all operators, a reason some other posters here agreed with.

You took offence at my second post and called me, and I quote:

...quite rude....


I posted again, to explain, politely, why I had posted as I did, and assured you that it had not been my intention to offend. It appears from your latest comments that you don't accept this, as, you now post to claim that you were, and I quote:

...roundly insulted/lambasted when someone with a better answer chimed in...

You were not ...roundly insulted or lambasted... and to claim that you were is frankly laughable. On a tech/ops forum - where one would hope for a higher standard of technical accuracy - you were, politely, told that your contradiction to an earlier answer of mine was still wrong.


You then carry on, and I quote:

...It's simply not worth the time to participate anymore when one encounters users with attitudes such as this. Obviously the person in question in my case had an enormous ego and felt the need to flex it...

Again, one might hope, that on a tech/ops forum, abusive remarks of the nature which you have made, would not occur.

Aside from pointing out that the only abuse has come from you, I won’t dignify your comments with an answer, other than to say that whenever one hears an ”ad hominem” argument, it’s an excellent indication that the person making it has nothing better to say and has lost the intellectual argument!

Finally, you might wish to consider how well your abuse accords with your own plea for, and I quote:

...there should still be some modicum of decency, even through the impersonal medium of an internet forum...

Now, perhaps we can return to discussing tech/ops matters?

Bellerophon

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: CM
Posted 2012-12-03 09:42:40 and read 4188 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Wonder what the views of the members on this section of the forum are on this topic.............

Hi Mel and thanks for bringing up a (sadly) relevant topic. As we see daily on A.net, all of us have biases of one sort or another, and all of us have pride which stings us when we are contradicted or proven wrong on a point.

The best advice I can offer (to myself first) and then to every other A.net member are these two things:

1. Come to A.net with an attitude to learn from others rather than teach them - As much as I hope I have been able to help others learn, one thing I know for certain is I have learned a great deal by reading and participating on these boards.

2. If someone contradicts me, proves me wrong, or somehow embarrasses me on these boards - even if done rudely - I need to take the high road, not be overly sensitive, and not respond in kind.

#2 is a terribly hard one for me to live up to, but I try. Way too many great topics have spiraled out of control and been locked because people cannot interact in a civil manner. The thread on the Vertical Power VP-400 comes to mind, where tempers flared over a truly silly topic, and in which I was as guilty as anyone else for stoking the flames.

New Emergency System That Flies Airplane To Runway (by planemaker May 3 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Edit: Spelling

[Edited 2012-12-03 10:30:45]

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: zeke
Posted 2012-12-03 10:20:37 and read 4163 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):

A junior worker approaches you for assistance in understanding a job situation technically.....How will you handle it.....So that the Junior learns the right way & gains in confidence.

Aviation is a heavily regulated industry, and the rules vary with the context of location or regulator. Unfortunately we do not have a lot of people here with international experience, most people tend to have localised knowledge. This is great on Civil Av as we get to see how the industry is ticking locally. However when it comes to a technical questions, people also cannot accept there is more than one way of achieving regulatory outcomes (e.g. only the way one OEM does things is the way it has to be done), they could design related, performance, airports, charts, ATC etc.

The difference between this forum and the workplace is the context that a question is being phrased is already implied, in the workplace the aircraft types, regulator, the company rules etc etc as already known. There is normally one correct answer.

Unless a reader of a thread is aware that aviation rules are not universal (I assume this would be the case with a lot of members), what one considers rude may be in factual in another regulatory context.

A lot of questions posed on Tech Ops end up having regulatory aspect, unless the context is known, there will often be more than one correct answer. This may upset some people who do not know any different.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: CM
Posted 2012-12-03 10:33:56 and read 4149 times.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
A lot of questions posed on Tech Ops end up having regulatory aspect, unless the context is known, there will often be more than one correct answer.

Well said. That seems to be the case in the referenced Concorde O2 mask discussion. Speaking of which, I just went back to read that thread, based on the reference above. Having done so, I would have to agree 100% with these comments:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 6):
I posted again, to explain, politely, why I had posted as I did, and assured you that it had not been my intention to offend.
Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 6):
You were not ...roundly insulted or lambasted...

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: wingscrubber
Posted 2012-12-03 10:55:42 and read 4121 times.

Quoting CM (Reply 7):
As we see daily on A.net, all of us have biases of one sort or another, and all of us have pride which stings us when we are contradicted or proven wrong on a point.

Agreed ^

When I came to A.net 10 years ago as a curious student wanting to share with and learn from others, I'm sure that I was wrong more often than I was right, and I can say I've learned a lot from the contributors to this forum, and maybe I've taught a little as well.

Unfortunately though it is quite obvious sometimes that there are indviduals, some of whom are listed in this very thread, who seem to take satisfaction from demonstrating their superior knowledge or expertise by catching out other members or putting them right, which takes some of the fun out of participating if it can't be done tactfully.

My pet peeve though, is when kids/students come here looking for help, wanting to know more about a particular aviation topic, especially now that the forum is behind a paywall, not free like the old days, and they get flamed for asking for help with their homework. I know because originally I was one of them!

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2012-12-03 13:33:56 and read 4047 times.

By far the worst place to insert any sort of technical expertise is in the Civil Av forum. Nothing like being told you're wrong by high school students and people sitting at desks.  

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: Kaiarahi
Posted 2012-12-03 13:51:40 and read 4032 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 11):
By far the worst place to insert any sort of technical expertise is in the Civil Av forum. Nothing like being told you're wrong by high school students and people sitting at desks.

But technical myths get a much wider circulation in CivAv. I agree with Tom that it's important to provide "sane and decent" information wherever possible. For a legendary example of Tom's (and others') patience, take a look at the AF447 AoA threads.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2012-12-03 14:14:43 and read 4015 times.

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 10):
My pet peeve though, is when kids/students come here looking for help, wanting to know more about a particular aviation topic, especially now that the forum is behind a paywall, not free like the old days, and they get flamed for asking for help with their homework. I know because originally I was one of them!

One thing is asking for help. The other thing is expecting others to do their homework for them.

Jan

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: longhauler
Posted 2012-12-03 14:30:15 and read 4006 times.

I like this tech forum as no matter what your question, someone here can answer it. I am always amazed at the knowledge on here, and the patience most display to explain it!

To me, there is no such thing as a stupid question. If one doesn't know the answer, then it's not a stupid question. Yet, some people get so irate when one asks something other's feel he should know.

Not having the internet when I was a kid, the "experts" were my Dad, (who was an AC Captain) and his flying buddies. I always asked stupid questions, and I always received a patient well thought out answer. I repay that in kind here! And I am always happy to see that most on here do the same.

I remember asking my Dad about propeller pitch control and what it does. He tried for hours ... but I just wasn't "getting it". (I was 9 years old). So ... he dragged me out to the hangars in Toronto where we found a Vanguard and 4 feet from that RR Tyne, it all made sense.

In my opinion, we all have the obligation to explain something we know to someone that doesn't, because someone in the past did that for us.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-04 01:31:23 and read 3894 times.

Amazingly.....This thread has struck a common chord.....With the numerous replies in a short span of time indicates this was a concern of the majority out here.........

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 1):
to prove they know more than everyone else just to stroke their own egos.

Thats speaks sadly of a poor insecure person.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 2):
All we can do is isolate them

Thats whats normally done....Ignore works great too.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
Users will "know" more than those who work in the field. Just because they've read it on these forums by one poster and regurgitate it back to another user.

Better to judge the reply based on the posts over a time.

Quoting iowaman (Reply 4):
A friendly reminder to please keep this dicussion civil and to respect other users and avoid causing flamebait. This thread has the potential to turn sour.

Thats the best part of Tech/Ops forum....Things stay very professional....And a person can agree to disagree.

Quoting CM (Reply 7):
Way too many great topics have spiraled out of control and been locked because people cannot interact in a civil manner. T

Thats the sad part......Block the offending post not lock the entire thread just because some spoilsport decided to post something to initiate the locking of the thread,where as the majority were debating.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
there is no such thing as a stupid question.

True.Every Question that deserves an answer ..... is a good question.....

To add......Its not only a good thing to be intelligent, but its better still to be Intelligence with a heart.....Humility is something which will gather respect everyplace be it a forum or at work.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: vikkyvik
Posted 2012-12-04 08:40:37 and read 3825 times.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 11):
By far the worst place to insert any sort of technical expertise is in the Civil Av forum. Nothing like being told you're wrong by high school students and people sitting at desks.

Hey! As a serial desk-sitter, I resent that!

Quoting starlionblue (Reply 5):
This is one of the main reasons why I am still on A.nut. The offenders are not allowed to ruin the discussion like on many other forums.

  

I started out in these forums posting in Tech/Ops, and it will probably be the last place I post in here too, when I've finally outgrown the other forums (if that ever happens).

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 6):

It does appear that there may have been a few posts removed from that thread, but what is still there seems perfectly polite. Of all posters here, Bellerophon, you're probably the last one I'd think of as being in any way impolite.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 1):
It's a very common phenomenon in aviation, really. There is a constant stream of people in this industry who will try to belittle others and attempt to prove they know more than everyone else just to stroke their own egos.

It's a common phenomenon in any line of work, and in life in general. I've just learned to ignore those people. No point in getting pissed off or upset.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: ScarletHarlot
Posted 2012-12-04 13:35:45 and read 3740 times.

It can help to know a bit about the players in a thread. One should never doubt Bellerophon or GDB on Concorde matters, for example. Longhauler will school all of us on Air Canada items, Tdscanuck will provide excellent information on Boeing details, and HAWK21M can tell us all about aircraft maintenance in India. Knowing a bit about who you're interacting with on a thread can give you a lot of context.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: 26point2
Posted 2012-12-04 18:07:18 and read 3677 times.

This site is tame. You should check out www.pprune.com if you want some really aggressive (and also quite often ignorant) replies.

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-05 03:50:33 and read 3582 times.

Over time....Its obvious who talks sense so most know who to believe......At times the Language used at various posters based on the countries they come from can create a misunderstanding......if that is catered too.....things are not a problem .

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: bond007
Posted 2012-12-05 08:57:15 and read 3534 times.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
To me, there is no such thing as a stupid question. If one doesn't know the answer, then it's not a stupid question. Yet, some people get so irate when one asks something other's feel he should know.

I mostly agree  

There are a few types of questions that personally annoy me a little:

- Simple questions that can be Google'd, and really do not need 20 posters to explain, and it would add nothing to the answer if they did explain.

- Commonly repeated questions, that even after somebody references previous similar posts, the thread ends up with 40 posts all exactly the same as one 6 weeks ago. "Why do some airlines use letters in flight numbers"  

- Questions that I believe even the poster made up for no real reason, other than to ask a question. "What airports with 5,000ft runways have never had a blue Cessna 210 land there?"

Hey, purely personal .... a question is a question. If you choose to answer it, I guess it's valid  

Some smart guys on this forum for sure .... I learn a GREAT deal here!


Jimbo

Topic: RE: Experts On A Tech Forum.
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2012-12-06 09:52:19 and read 3359 times.

Most Technical persons ask questions that a person involved in manufacturing would know eg:- why was the duct routed this way or why was the particular part located here etc.....Those are the toughest to answer.


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