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Maintenance Personell - US = Mechs, EU = Engineers  
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3708 posts, RR: 34
Posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5998 times:
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Over the years I have been picked up by our US members for calling myself an Engineer, being told I was a Mechanic.

During the last couple of years I have been involved with the Maintenance Departments of some of large US operators and now can understand the difference.

In MY experience US Mech's do not do any troubleshooting they just throw componants at a defect until it fixes the problem. Once every possible black box in a system has been replaced they they will start looking at the wiring. They do not take full advantage of any on board BITE facility.

I have worked for several airlines in the UK and in every one when you have a defect BITE is always used if available, if not the sytem is analysed for the most likely culprit and a componant is changed based on that study.

This situation maybe the result of the level of type training received on either side of the pond. In the US a type course will last two weeks and cover Airframe/Engine and Electrics while in the UK a course will last at least 4 weeks and cover Airframe/Engine and some avionics. Even differences courses between, say, a 747 Classic and a -400 will take three weeks.

I don't post this to in anyway demean the US Mechanic but just my observations from being exposed to the differences on either side of the Atlantic.

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

An engineer uses maths, a mechanic fixes things.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

This topic has always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine....

First of all, in my experience, the average British aircraft maintainers seems to be much more capable than the average American maintainer. The British types go through much more comprehensive training. This is reflected in many trades in the UK.

Taxi drivers in London for example, go through a great deal of preparation and training but you can be you won't have to give one directions to your destination. Here in North America, I am generally tempted to tell the Taxi driver to sit in the back and let MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME drive....

The "British" way is often detrimental however, because if anything, it is overdone. In my opinion, that’s why the British aircraft makers have trouble being competitive. Even design and engineering is over-done.

As for the "engineer" moniker, although here in Canada, we use the “Engineer” word in “Aircraft Maintenance Engineer” in my opinion, using the word “engineer” without the accompanying “maintenance” takes it completely out of context.

In the most simplistic explanation, an engineer designs airplanes. A maintenance engineer maintains airplanes. An engineer is a member of a professional (classical “profession” definition) association and designs things using accepted standards and analytical processes. Once an aeronautical product is designed, developed and approved, a maintenance engineer ensures the product conforms to the approved type design defined in the Type Certificate.

Engineering is a profession. Aircraft maintenance is a trade whether you use the word “technician” or “engineer” at the end. Very different roles indeed.

I think the word engineer is really outdated in the context of maintenance and should be replaced with technician as the Americans have done. It’s really a hold over from the days when someone who maintained a device driven by an engine was called an “engineer”. Like a train engineer. Aircraft maintenance personnel really don’t fit the old definition and never really did.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5789 times:

The term nowadays is AMT, Aircraft Maintenance Technician. I do believe that the AMTs in the UK are most definitely better trained due to the CAA Regs. I think a type rating is required on UK licenses as here in the US there are 3 types: Airframe, Powerplant (hence the term A&P mechanic) and avionics (FCC license).

Over on my side of the pond, the engineer is the one who uses regs, load calculations, stress analysis to develop, repairs, mods, new designs etc.


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

VC-10,
now you've gone and done it. Found your asbestos underwear yet?

Having had some insight in the world of training, I figure I might as well stick my neck out there along with yours and second your observations regarding training though. Also compare the required background to even be eligible for training. Two years in school here... Don't forget that in the US system, the exams are typically open-book with lower levels required to pass either. How this works out when it comes to actually getting work signed off and who can do it, I don't know.

On the other hand, in my experience the tendency to actually troubleshoot components rather than swap boxes is largely down to the availability of spare parts (management and beancounters breathing down the neck of swappers being considered part of availability in this context). This seems to hold true regardless of part of the world and level of training.

If you have a PEP-program where you pay almost the same regardless of how much you send in, boxes will be pulled and sent off until even the lunch boxes in the fridge have been sent twice before any real troubleshooting is done.

Cheers,
Fred

(Written before prior replies, posted now due to network problems)



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

VC-10

I wish very deeply that I could disagree with you...but I can't.
The single biggest problem in the US is that those entering Aircraft Maintenance since the demise of PanAm, Braniff, Eastern and the rest...
Don't know what they don't know. Those that know have retired or just gotten sick of being told to shut up in this era of kill the messenger (Throw me under the bus, please, before they find out I'm only the messenger...). The Bean Counters don't want to hear about fixing it right the first time, JUST GET IT OFF THE GATE!

The state of education in this country has degraded to the point where it's virtually irrelevant to the need. The kids counting the beans have come into power and a mechanic is relegated to the title of AMT because he thinks it makes him sound more important or the title is more prestigious. An Engineer with a four year Petrolium Systems degree and no aircraft experience writes EO's for 30 year mechanics and can't understand why the "gray hair" is jumping up and down in front of his desk.

People don't understand that a Technician (AMT) is specialised in one set of skills where a Mechanic or Engineer has had to earn stewardship in many skills and all the theory and basic knowledge applying to the aircraft at hand.

AMT's in the US are encouraged to use "swaptronics" rather than basic troubleshooting theory and principle (our 30 or 40 something managers believe it's quicker or cheaper or who knows what). I am proud to have the title of "Mechanic" on my certificate. I am also a technician and certified to design auto flight systems making me an engineer for US purposes, but I worked long and hard to earn the title of Mechanic and I'll never take that lightly. Maybe we should abolish the opportunity to take the A&P exams after school and only allow people completing a three year apprenticeship to test.

I fight the battle daily. Standing in front of a class trying to teach an Aircraft SystemsGen Fam or an Avionics Gen Fam I find myself regularly stopping to introduce the students to information and knowledge that should be basic and before 1985 was.

This month's edition of AVIATION MAINTENANCE Magazine has an excellent editorial by Matt Thurber that starts to touch on the problem.

Until we get back to basics and start requiring excellence over adequacy it'll continue to go downhill.

VC-10
Be careful, it's beginning to sound like you're agreeing with my 2002 tirade against "simplified English" and Human Factors training.
I have to agree with the over generalization that the UK maintenance people take things to extreme but there are lessons there that we no longer follow on this side of the pond.


Okay kiddies, slam away Smile/happy/getting dizzy



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

"AMT", good point.

As for maintenance engineer, I am one. But not in any way a mechanic/technician, but rather the academical kind of aerospace engineer (the kind with slide rules, tables, geeky clothes and equations) who specialized in maintenance.

Figured I should throw that in just to muddy the waters, now that you made them seem somewhat clearer.  Big grin

Cheers,
Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5754 times:

The "British" way is often detrimental however, because if anything, it is overdone. In my opinion, that’s why the British aircraft makers have trouble being competitive. Even design and engineering is over-done.

Surely it's better overdone, than underdone?  Confused



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5720 times:

>>>Don't forget that in the US system, the exams are typically open-book with lower levels required to pass either. How this works out when it comes to actually getting work signed off and who can do it, I don't know.<<<

Unless things have changed, going for your licenses is NOT open book.
For each license you took:
A written exam
An oral exam
A practical exam

Engineer is a nice job description. I prefer it over technician (which I despise). Until then I like mechanic, no shame in that.

The job title doesn't equal ability, that's up to the individual.

What math does an "engineer" use that a mechanic doesn't? I'm talking about engineers in the aircraft mx field?

>>>People don't understand that a Technician (AMT) is specialised in one set of skills where a Mechanic or Engineer has had to earn stewardship in many skills and all the theory and basic knowledge applying to the aircraft at hand.<<<

I think you've got it backwards. While I don't know what an aircraft mx engineer job entails, the AMT is not specialized. He does everything (though not usually structures. He works all aircraft types in the fleet, mechanical and avionics, run/taxi work. I was under the impressiuon that an mx engineer (British)
as limited in scope of aircraft he's licensed for.

Many of the other points brought up is the result that the airlines themselves encouraged. Standout mechanics aren't a product that the airlines (including training) had striven for rather products that are self made in spite of the system.

[Edited 2004-10-20 23:44:00]


You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineN685FE From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 451 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5705 times:


I will second that FDXmech, I have spend so much more time in self training than others I know. You can always spot them, they need help with their sign offs, let alone do any work on their own. People like this can get by hiding in a hangar environment, but once they get to the line they stand out like a sore thumb. It doesn't make it pleasant for the other mechanics since they have to pick up the work load for an inexperienced/unknowledgable/unmotivated mechanic.





psp. lead by example
User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5660 times:

What I'm saying about the title is that Mechanic means generally demonstrably qualified while Technician is specific. And we don't need to confuse the issue with the European monikers. That's their turf. I will not in any way demean any US Certificated Mechanic. It's just that since 1985 the level of prerequisite qualification has diminished so far that VC-10 has a valid point.

On this side of the pond it took me three hard working years to qualify to sit for the written and O&P exams to become an Airframe and Engine Mechanic (now Airframe and Powerplant). Under the current standards you need only attend a school for 14 or more months to qualify for the tests. In all fairness I must say that the national average is actually 22 months in school but I hope my point is made.

Once upon a time a Technician could aspire to become a Mechanic (although I don't know too many Avionics Techs in their right mind who would want to).
Now that we have "simplified English" and Ebonics nobody seems to remember the basic definitions of anything anymore. (Simplified English has a 1000 word vocabulary. A three year old has a 600 word vocabulary. Who picks the words?) If AMT makes you feel better than "Mechanic" then have at it. Just remember that a lot of us gray hairs are wondering what made you feel that the title of Mechanic was so inferior that you needed more words to feel adequate. I do have to say that Woody on Wings didn't do much for the image, though. (To Woody BITE is something to do to a sandwich or at the local bar brawl.)

Here's another example:
Stewardess vs. Flight Attendant
Stewardess: One who has demonstrated stewardship and skills, as in a shop steward.
Flight Attendant: One who stands in attendance as in...well you fill in the blanks.

In leaner times I taught English at the secondary level. Nothing like employment security is there? So I get petty sometimes. Simplified English indeed!



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2614 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

I can't comment on Line mtx at a US major I've only worked in the Hangar enviroment at DL. Yes, the less competent can hide here but we all know who they are. They tend to get job assingnments that fit them. I also do a lot of structral work as an AMT. All of us sheetmetal mechanics are AMT's at DL.

Wehn I worked at a small commuter airline before DL we rarely just swapped boxes to troubleshoot. We didn't have the spares. We also didn't have Avionics guys unless it required an FCC signoff. We all had multimeters and knew how to use them. We always looked for a wiring problem first and hoped to find one. The last thing you wanted to say it must be this box that needs replacement. If they were going to spend money on it you had better be sure.


User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5651 times:

From my perspective, I am training to become an Aeronautical or Aerospace Engineer, pick from that what you see fit.

There are Technicians and Certifyers who both fall under the banner of Aerospace Engineer. The aircraft that we work on (we like to think) are finly tuned pieces of engineering therefore engineers maintain the engineering...

I gotta disagree with 777236ER, an engineer is not someone who uses just maths... I am an engineer, what it says on my contract, and I hardly ever use maths that would be called "real maths" like using complex equations or anything else similar...



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5642 times:

My licence says Aircraft Maintenance Engineer- a title I like, but the point is I`m comfortable and confident in my trade and qualifications, and don`t need the job title to feel good about it. I have a comment sorta related to this thread-why do the British and US have separate airframe and powerplant licences? From a line mtce point of view, where I work is in under the British system, and an "engineer" with his "A" but not "C" (engine) is is not a lot of use. Is it for overhaul licence purposes? Or is it a bureaucracy run amuck?

User currently offline320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5604 times:

I am an aircraft maintenance engineer - says so on my licence. In the air force, I was an aviation technician. What's the diff? In practice, not much at all. But I dislike the title "mechanic", because I work on many things that are not strictly mechanical.

When someone asks me what I do, I say "aircraft maintenance engineer", because in North America, we seem to have the idea that an engineer is someone who went to university and would still be using a slide rule if Bill Gates hadn't invented computers.

But when you think about it, there are many engineers out there besides train engineers - Microsoft Certified System Engineers, among others. There's also the famous "Sanitation Engineer", aka garbage man.

In Canada and the rest of the Commonwealth, I assume, AME or aircraft engineer mean the same thing. An aeronautical engineer is the guy who wears the tie. No aeronautical engineer I know would describe himself as an aircraft engineer.



The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17177 posts, RR: 66
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5564 times:

I'm a Software "Sales Engineer", which is probably the worst kind  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

On one of my licenses (JAR 66 B1 issued by the Irish Aviation Authority) it says "Aircraft Maintenance Engineer", while on the other one (FAA A&P) it says "Mechanic".
I do the same work under both (except that under the JAA licence I´m restricted to aircraft types I´ve got a 7 week theoretical and 2 weeks practictal training on and done a special type rating exam, additional to a series of basic exams just to get the basic licence. Also, unless I´ve got the additional B2 qualifications, concerning avionics I´m only allowed to do BITE checks and change LRUs, no external testing equipment permitted). IMO the Engineer thing is limited to commonwealth countries, in Germany I´m an aircraft mechanic, or as a B1 a "Prüfer Klasse 2", this means an inspector class 2 (with certifying privileges, which obviously brings more money than being just a grease monkey).
In Britain or other commonwealtth countries I would only apply for a job stating that I´m a licenced engineer, if I say I´m a mechanic, I´ll be considered a grease monkey.
Applying for an American job I would apply as an A&P mechanic.

BTW, I still got through the old pre JAA Irish licence system, very similar to the old British CAA LWTR exams, and I found them to be much more difficult than the multiple choice A&P exams. The Irish exams consisted of both written essay type exams and one hour oral grillings by two examiners, which left me completely wrung out.

Esp. the A&P oral and practical exam was a joke.

Concerning troubleshooting, working on the line, we´ve got a problem that the bean counters are foremost interested in us providing shipping space for express parcels and every delay over 5 minutes means a series of reports have to be written justifying the delay. Even then ANY delay counts against the department. Often we get orders by our superiors to change boxes in a shotgun approach, just to get the plane out. Checking wiring is usually done last, because it takes time. They consider boxes replaced unnecessarily cheaper than having a plane full of next day before 10 am delivery or money back guarantee parcels delayed.

I also know some guys (who by the way, came from the USAF), who absolutely suck in troubleshooting. You can give them jobs like lubricating or changing wheels, but don´t expect them to use their heads. Concerning type courses, they complained about having to learn the systems, instead they want the instructor to give them step by step rundowns on how to do different checks, or list like "if I´ve got these fault syndroms, I´ve got to change this box and it will cure it" without actually knowing WHAT they are doing.

Jan




User currently offlineBuzz From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 697 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

Hi MD11 Engineer, Buzz here. I think you've got a valid point, there are some people who fix airplanes that aren't worth the paper their "tickets" are printed on. And there are some who are called in to fix thing after all the cheap and easy "fixes" have not worked out. The good ones have taken time to learn how the systems work.

Box-swapping: I think this comes from people who don't know the systems, It's a "black box" and mysterious things happen inside. All the magic inside could have "leaked out", let's try another box. And our bosses are under pressure to eliminate small delays. One night i asked my young energetic boss how long a delay he needed to avoid getting his a** chewed (grin).

Do i recall hearing that the UK aircraft mechanics are certified in type, sort of a type rating for mechanics?
g'day
Buzz Fuselsausage: Line Mechanic by night, DC-3 Crew Chief by choice, taildragger pilot for fun


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2614 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

"The magic has leaked out of the Box" That's a great line. Just remember electricity works because there is smoke in the wires, don't let it out and everything will be fine.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

I am also a technician and certified to design auto flight systems making me an engineer for US purposes....

Are you a DER Avioniker?

Microsoft Certified System Engineers, among others. There's also the famous "Sanitation Engineer", aka garbage man.

I would think that most would understand that the use of "engineer" in titles such as "sanitation" or "household" is meant to be satirical. With respect to the Mircrosoft Systems Engineer, it is much closer in meeting the definition.

The dictionary defines "engineer" as:

1 One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
2 One who operates an engine.
3 One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.


None of those describe an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.

There are Technicians and Certifyers who both fall under the banner of Aerospace Engineer.

That definition doesn't do it here. Techs and certifiers don't constitute Aerospace Engineering. Under most legislation that governs professional engineering in various countries, it is not legal to use the term "engineering" outside the context of members of professional engineering associations. The use in some instances are grandfathered. Which brings me to another point. Maintenance personell are typically "licensed" to work under the respective airworthiness authority. Engineers are typically "delegated" as extensions of the airworthiness authorities.

Engineers are authorized to establish compliance with airworthiness standards on behalf of the civil airworthiness authority. Maintainers are "allowed" to return the aircraft to its approved configuration on their own (or company's) behalf. That is a huge difference.

I also know some guys (who by the way, came from the USAF), who absolutely suck in troubleshooting.

This goes for the vast majority of ex-military people from the US and Canada. Not only do they lack knowledge, but they have rather pathetic work ethics. Resumes that contain any military service history go right into the "circular" file...


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Airplay

Well put!
I was certified in 1979 by Sperry, Motorola, and Smiths as a Design Engineer after taking part in the FMS/DFCS Microwave Landing System Integration Design Team. DER is for independant individuals with a fixed operating location. Sort of like an IA but with a pencil instead of a wrench.
I'm getting my satisfaction and gratification teaching maintenance now days.
It used to be in the US that you couldn't publish any directive type documents like EO's, ECO's, or Installation Modifications unless you had two years of post degree experience and a certification from a state licensing board or a manufacturer.
Now an engineer in the US only need have a four year degree "in an engineering discipline" and a job with a company doing airplane work.
The USAF people used to get very in-depth training but in 1985 that all changed when they combined career fields in the interest of shortening training times and getting people in the field faster. My personal favorite was when the AFCS, INS, and Instrument fields were combined. If a person were to have gone to all three schools he would have spent almost two years in tech school. After the integration was completed and the schools relocated to Mississippi in 1988 the school was only from 12 to 22 weeks long.
Gee I wonder what was left out???  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


[Edited 2004-10-21 17:28:50]


One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

DER is for independant individuals with a fixed operating location. Sort of like an IA but with a pencil instead of a wrench.

Actually, A DER is "an individual, appointed in accordance with 14 CFR § 183.29, who holds an engineering degree or equivalent, possesses technical knowledge and experience, and meets the qualification requirements of FAA Order 8100.8."

http://www.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/

An IA is basically an AMT that has inspection sign off authority. Not the same thing at all.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

Working in the field, I have my own problems with college graduated "engineers" in airline engineering, who´ve never actually touched an airplane. These guys give me desktop trouble shooting orders I´ve got to comply with and often enough send me orders for doing repairs, which are absolutely impossible to follow.

Buzz,

Under the JAA system, the old German British and Irish systems (the systems I´m familar with) you require a type rating for certifying MX on aircraft.
Under JAA the lowest licence is a Cat A licence which permits you to do servicing (ATA 100 Chapter 12), wheel and brake changes, light bulb changes and R+R of galley equipment (coffee makers, ovens). You´ll have to pass a basic general knowledge test, prove a minimum years of experience (or an apprenticeship) and a ATA 104 level 1 gen fam type course (2 weeks with exam).
The next step is a B1 or B2 licence, B1 for mechanical systems, engines and electrics, avionics limited to bite checks and LRU changes, B2 for in depth avionics and electrics, but no mechanical systems.
You´ll need at least 3 years experience (certified), a very tough basic knowledge test and a ATA 104 level 3 type course on an aircraft. The type rating takes 7 weeks theory plus 2 weeks OJT. Each engine type needs a one week course.
A B1 or B2 can perform all work in his related field on the aircraft he is type rated for, inspection, T/S, repair, modifications iaw approved data.
Typically a B1 or B2 would either work on the line or in heavy maintenance, be in charge of a team working in one area of the plane (hydraulics, flight controls, LDG, engines, avionics for a B2). There exists a B3 licence as well, but this one is strictly for the shop boys, those who take the boxes and other LRUs apart and fix them. A B1 or B2 can release an aircraft to service, but not after a heavy check (C- or D-check). Under the German system a B licenced person would be a "Prüfer Klasse 2", an inspector second class.

A C licence permits a release to service after a heavy check. To get a C-licence you´ll need either a college degree in engineering plus a level 3 type course or 3 years experience on the type as a B licenced AME.
Typically the C licenced person checks the work package after the check to make sure all task cards have been completed and signed by the respective B licenced staff and all discrepancies worked on. Then he puts his stamp into the log book for a final release to service. Under the German system a C licenced AME would be a "Prüfer Klasse 1", Inspector, first class.

Hope this helps,

Jan

Edit for typo


[Edited 2004-10-21 19:24:03]

User currently offlineIFIXCF6 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

I believe the European system is better, GKirk's quote "Surely it's better overdone, than underdone?" is correct, at least to me. BUT...if we are mechanics (engineers, technicians, fixers-of-things-with-wings, whatever you call yourself), the real learning occurs in the environment you work in.

There are several instances in my career when I did not know the solution until I had solved the problem. System knowlege is critical to this. BITE checks are what you have to do...with the knowlege of the system.

I personally believe supervised work for a few months, coupled with intensive classroom training works best. The student is then able to connect the theory with the practical.

BTW as ex-USAF maintenance, I take offense at the anti-USAF posts. As an F100 powerplant mech (F16's from 20 years ago), I'll match my training/work ethics with anyone.

A&P tests in the US are geared towards the GA population. That is why we should separate the tests and classes. Allright, enough from me.

Mike


User currently offlineDl1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

I would LOVE to see a JAA type system in place here. Too bad we are swinging towards cheaper and cheaper maintenance with heavy checks being outsourced to the low bidder.

For you JAA folks, what are your staffing levels/work loads like? A typical night at out station includes 8 of our a/c requiring a transit or layover check and looking at any deferred items. Added to this is our contract workload. It varies but on a busy night can include a couple of 767-300ER's, a 747 transit check and a A340 transit check. If we have 9 people, we are over staffed! 7 or 8 is typical.


25 MaerskMech : We have the same issues with the JAA. everything is about money. it seems like safety sometimes comes after the echnomics. We are also been cut down.
26 Buzz : Hi MD11Engineer, Buzz here. Thanks for the explaination of the tickets required on the other side of the pond. I fix airliners for a living (and gener
27 Cdfmxtech : Standout mechanics aren't a product that the airlines (including training) had striven for rather products that are self made in spite of the system.
28 Post contains images 320tech : Airplay: The dictionary defines "engineer" as: 1 One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering. 2 One who operates an engine
29 Post contains links Airplay : A320Tech, forgive my long dragged out reply to an issue that I don't really think is all that important, but..... Check out my earlier post. I stated
30 MD11Engineer : Concerning ex military people, I see the same deficiencies with ex Luftwaffe personell. The problem is that, since the military want to them to start
31 Airplay : Yes...I echo what MD11Engineer says. Military techs do exactly what they are trained and expected to do in the military. Unfortunately their skill bas
32 MYT332 : Well im studying Aeronautical Engineering at Uni. Im in my fifth week and what we have done so far is about tensile testing, material properties, elas
33 Post contains images A/c train : I work for an aircraft engineering company, we fix airplanes and keep them conforming to reqd standards !!, who works for an aircraft engineering com
34 320tech : Airplay: Well, we agree on one thing, anyway - it's not that important as to what an AME is called. The job is the same no matter what the person is c
35 Post contains images MYT332 : A/c train, I must have rattled your cage If you got a guy from university to come and inspect a crack in primary structure and a licenced engineer Wel
36 Kaddyuk : MYT332, Aerospace Engineering @ University is basic mate... I know a number of our undergrads and one of the post grads. Every single one of them said
37 Post contains links Airplay : However, you are incorrect when you say that by calling myself an AME, I am somehow in violation of provincial law. As you must know, provincial law c
38 F86sabre : I’m an aerospace engineer in the boffin sense of the word. I do something similar to what FredT mentioned above. I use my Aeronautical and Astronaut
39 MYT332 : Hey Kev it's alright, I dont actually wont to be an Engineer crazy as it sounds. I was recommended to do this course by the head of school at uni beca
40 320tech : Airplay: Sorry...but I wasn't wrong. I beg to differ. The Delegation Handbook from which you quote refers to DAR's etc, who are ***professional engine
41 Airplay : 320tech...I beg to differ. Let's make it simple. Go ahead and open your own business and call it "320's Engineering" and incorporate it in the provinc
42 A/c train : Myt332, first things first, quit with the patronising ''eh'', doesnt do you any favours. Secondly, im not into downgrading others professions or exag
43 Airplay : There seems to be an assumption that the designer, worked harder, or, is a better mathmetician, therefore he earns the right to be called an ''enginee
44 Post contains images Kaddyuk : "Ive seen many graduate engineers who gained a licence through exams and equivalent qualifications held" The grandfather rights have been removed... T
45 Post contains images A/c train : Kaddyuk, thats not really what im getting at, some university degrees exempt you from sitting certain licence modules, you still have to sit all thos
46 Kaddyuk : Hmmm... Yay, I can have a go at my lecturer now lol... So has the EASA Part-66 come into effect yet? We are still sat around wondering if the JAA stil
47 A/c train : There is no more JAR-66, its all Part-66 exams, you also get told your percentage now aswell, I dont really wanna know it, as long as I pass I dont c
48 Kaddyuk : Yeah i noticed that on my last 2 exams... Luckily for me they are in-house as well because virgin is Jar... Ooops sorry, PART-147 approved @ Catagory
49 Wingscrubber : I'm an aero. engineering student, in the design sense rather than maintenance. A whole number of different professions seem to get away with calling t
50 Post contains links Kaddyuk : Straight From The Horses Mouth... JAR 66 introduces four categories of certifying staff, and includes related qualification requirements in term of ba
51 Post contains images 320tech : Now we're getting somewhere . I understand that professional engineers, whether in Canada or Britain, have a substantial interest in maintaining their
52 Post contains images Kaddyuk : It doesnt matter to me as much as most things, but still I want to have a cool job title and in the UK, technician is thrown out the window. I say Eng
53 Post contains links 320tech : The designer/certifier has a much different job then the maintainer. They call on very different skill sets and neither is more important than the oth
54 Airplay : His response was basically what I said - provincial engineering associations can't touch AME's because AME's don't fall under provincial jurisdiction.
55 FDXmech : >>>Well im studying Aeronautical Engineering at Uni. Im in my fifth week and what we have done so far is about tensile testing, material properties, e
56 Airplay : Then there's little difference between your training and mine when I went to A&P school. OK FDXmech....I just carved out a 1 inch diameter hole in the
57 Post contains images FDXmech : Like, what's the point? The rare time I'm in agreement with you and you feed me the BS. I was under the assumption MYT332 is studying for the US equiv
58 Airplay : Though I'm curious, do you call an aircraft mechanic, a "maintainer", face to face? Sure. As a matter of fact Transport Canada distributes a safety pu
59 Post contains images FDXmech : My assumption was this passage from post #32. >>>Im not a grease monkey, not a techie. I'm an aspiring British Engineer.>>Engineers, over here anyway,
60 Airplay : FDXMech, I read your last post several times....and I can't figure out what "engineers" you are talking about at any one time. This confusion (on my p
61 N685FE : FDXmech, did you get her in and out on time? I hope she didn't give you any problems. Drop me an email, I like to network with as many mechanics as I
62 Dc10guy : Once again it amazes me how people here can speak so knowningly about things they know nothing about. I've been an "AMT" for 23 years now. Being an "A
63 Airplay : N685FE, actually you have the right idea. You identify yourself as an "a/c mechanic." Don't waste your time on Airplay... Thanks for the flamebait....
64 N685FE : Check out my profile now, I changed it just for you Airplay. Doesn't that just bother you, a maintainer is using the same title you do!!
65 Post contains images Airplay : Check out my profile now, I changed it just for you Airplay. Doesn't that just bother you, a maintainer is using the same title you do!! Not really...
66 N685FE : How high is your blood pressure now?
67 Airplay : N685FE....isn't that a US registration?
68 Post contains links and images N685FE : http://www.airfleets.org/pictures8/9214.jpg It is, why? Isn't there something more constructive we can discuss? [Edited 2004-10-27 19:41:06][Edited 2
69 Post contains images 320tech : Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that finds Airplay annoying. Airplay, nothing personal, but you sound an awful lot like the aeronautic
70 Post contains images MD11Engineer : Ok, guys, as you might have seen on my other thread, I´m trying to find a place where I can become a "real" engineer through a distance learning cour
71 Airplay : Airplay, nothing personal, but you sound an awful lot like the aeronautical engineers that are a curse to all AME's You mean the guys who design the a
72 Cdfmxtech : Airplay, you said: In the most simplistic explanation, an engineer designs airplanes. A maintenance engineer maintains airplanes. I think you make som
73 Airplay : Cdfmxtech, excellent post. Except where you assume that I was trying to downplay the role of the maintainer. If you read my posts, I am as adamant tha
74 Post contains images Cdfmxtech : I am as adamant that engineers are no more qualified to do a maintainers job as maintainers are at doing an engineers job. I agree. I also mentioned t
75 MD11Engineer : Airplay, You made it sound as if we were just filling up oil and wiping windscreens. Jan
76 Post contains images Airplay : You made it sound as if we were just filling up oil and wiping windscreens. You forget emptying the shitter... I apologize if my comments made the imp
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