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Piloting An Airbus Vs Boeing  
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10723 times:

For commercial pilots, how difficult is it to master the Boeing (yoke) versus the Airbus (kickstick)? Do AF or NW have pilots that fly both a/c during the same month or so? Excuse my ignorance in the terms of the hardware on the respected planes.

AA777jr

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10699 times:

Ummm... excuse MY ignorance, but what exactly is a kickstick?

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10691 times:

Be nice Scorpio. We all know it's called a lickstick  Big grin

Anyway the difference between the yoke and the sidestick takes much less time to get used to than all the rest of the differences, of which there are legion. It's really not that big a deal.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCRPilot From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2004, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10668 times:

Is the "stick" mechanically actuated when the auto pilot is off? You know...to give it a real feel!?!?!?


Flying is a privilege!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10641 times:

It never gives feedback. But this is intentional. The Airbus stick is not meant as a direct connection to the control surfaces, as more conventional yokes and sticks are. It is a roll and pitch rate selector. The force the pilot exerts on the stick is an indication of his desired roll or pitch rate. How that rate is achieved is then up to the plane.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10562 times:

Do AF or NW have pilots that fly both a/c during the same month or so?

I highly doubt they would have any need to have boeing/airbus pilot conversions, and if it happened it would certainly be for awhile.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10469 times:

Sure, if you fly the DC-9 and the MD-8x and the MD-9x at the same time, it's no biggie, but the differences are not so major. Keeping pilots current on both Airbus AND Boeing is possible, but would probably cost too much to be practical for the airline since the differences are great.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4990 posts, RR: 42
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10390 times:

It took me about 20 minutes to get used to the sidestick, and then felt very natural, and still does.

It is not really accurate to say there is no feedback from the sidestick though. When in Normal Law, the sidestick is "springed" back to neutral. The further from neutral you are, the greater the push back to neutral. So, it doesn't feel like a computer joystick, it feels like a control yoke.

In hydraulically controlled aircraft with feedback, this is exactly how it feels. Same for unassisted controls, the further you deflect a control surface, the stronger the wind force to return that control surface to neutral. When flying with a sidestick, this spring feedback is essential, otherwise one would overcontrol. Much like the very early Comet I crashes due to overrotation on takeoff, you need that spring to remind you that you are commanding "something" other than neutral.

When in Direct Law, namely the first ~50ft of takeoff, the last ~50ft of landing, or when degraded due to computer failures, the sidestick reacts exactly like a control yoke of a conventional aircraft. That is the say the feedback increases with respect to aircraft attitude, instead of control surface deflection.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCRPilot From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2004, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10352 times:

Very cool info LongHauler. I figure there had to be some kind of feedback.


Flying is a privilege!
User currently offlineRaggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 1001 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10336 times:

A bit off topic, but still:

Having only flown Cessnas and Pipers, I got to try a Cirrus SR22 the other day. I got used to the stick in no time, real nice, even with my left hand...
Now, I realize we're talking about machines way bigger than GA aircraft, but anyhow, I liked the sidestick. But then again the SR22 is not your average GA aircraft either.


Raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10330 times:

I don't know how difficult it is to master an Airbus versus a Boeing, but I do know that the Airbus has a tendency to make insults at and below 20 feet.. Big grin


Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10059 times:

I saw a video on here for a Airbus A340 taking off, and the pilots are using the sticks on the sides to control with the throttle. Did anyone else watch? Very interesting!

AA777jr


User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9701 times:

lol, md11luxurylinr! Boeing is making the same insult to my knowledge, however their jets don't say it out loud (it's displayed on the pfd)


Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineRamerinianair From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

Well, I think that the yoke is better. It gives feedback which, I like-it gives me a better feel. Of course, I've never flown an Airbus besides from a coach seat, but I do use the stick on FS2004. The yoke on the cessnas I fly in are nice. You learn with a yoke, I think you should keep it uniform. When things go worng, you have to use your experience and training. When a lot of your hours are on a yoke and your using a stick it may be hard. The stick doesn't sound that good in my opinion.
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9409 times:

Same for unassisted controls, the further you deflect a control surface, the stronger the wind force to return that control surface to neutral.

Well, unless airflow over the surface is perturbed (as in a stall). Would the Airbus stick give feedback indicating this? I know it's sort of hard to stall an Airbus but anyway...

What I mean is that of course there is increasing resistance, but this is not the same as feedback emanating from aerodynamic forces on the control surface.




"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9231 times:

I would think it would be harder to get used to the "inverted yoke" like on Embraers and Falcons etc.... I'm sure it probably takes a few minutes to get used to, but it just looks so unnatural.

User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9220 times:

Going from one to the other isn't hard. I've flown Katanas, a Lancair, and SR-20. They all work the same way. Push it forward, the cows get bigger, pull back and the cows get smaller. As for the inverted design like Embaers and Hawkers, they fit into the natural hand position and are very comfortable from what I hear. To be honest though, when you get to that type of aircraft, you do very little hand flying. They aren't easy to control at cruise and the auto pilot does a much better job of keeping the movements from causing the passengers in the back to puke.

777s also have no mechanical connection to the flight controls. All movements are interpreted by the ARINC Bus and then digitally sent to the flight control actuators. Boeing and Airbus have different fly-by-wire philosophies though. Airbus sticks don't give feedback and give very little movement. Boeing has a compensator system that gives the yolk a "feel" like flying by hand.



DMI
User currently offlineSanthosh From India, joined Sep 2001, 545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9188 times:

Is it dufficult for a pilots flying an Airbus as a F/O when he/she upgrades to a Captain? because being a captain you have to control the airbus sidestick using the left hand?

George



Happy Landing
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9179 times:

I saw a video on here for a Airbus A340 taking off, and the pilots are using the sticks on the sides to control with the throttle.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. The throttle in an Airbus is in the same position.

If you mean they're using the sidestick in conjunction with the throttle, then yes. That's what we've been talking about. The sidestick.

Is it dufficult for a pilots flying an Airbus as a F/O when he/she upgrades to a Captain? because being a captain you have to control the airbus sidestick using the left hand?

Its the same for a traditional yoke system. The captain flies with his left hand while throttling with his right.

N


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9158 times:

the airbus mcdoo (MCDU) is enough to drive a boeing pilot up the walls! i highly doubt that airlines keep pilots current on both the airbusses and the boeings in thier fleet, it's just impractical and a lot of work for the pilot.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineJeff G From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 436 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9089 times:

The Airbus sidestick doesn't give feedback of any sort. It only provides increasing resistance when increasingly deflected from the neutral position. But that resistance is a mechanical function of the centering mechanism - it doesn't change with flight conditions.

The sidestick "appears" to give feedback when in flare mode or direct law because the autotrim function changes in flare mode and isn't active in direct law. That means that instead of flying stick-neutral, the stick has to be constantly deflected, which to the pilot feels much like "feedback".


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Landing an Airbus: Guys it doesn't have to be an insult. The Airbus says it three times as a verb, only after that does it become a noun.

Flying with Left or Right Hand: This one never fails to amaze me when it comes up. "Is it hard to fly with the left hand after using the right?" Let me ask you this; do you crash your car every time you take your preferred hand off the steering wheel? A ten hour student should be able to fly with either hand, or even standing up. It is the movement of the yoke or stick that matters and that does not change when you switch hands or seats.

Sidestick feedback: In Airbus training I stumped the instructor. He was talking about flight control laws and said that in Direct Law you'd get the ECAM message "USE MANUAL PITCH TRIM." I asked the instructor (not a pilot) since there is no feedback to the sidestick how would we know when pitch trim was needed?

I'll let you chew on that one for a while.






Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9058 times:

Sidestick feedback: In Airbus training I stumped the instructor. He was talking about flight control laws and said that in Direct Law you'd get the ECAM message "USE MANUAL PITCH TRIM." I asked the instructor (not a pilot) since there is no feedback to the sidestick how would we know when pitch trim was needed?

I'll let you chew on that one for a while.


Hmmmmm.... Let go of the stick and see if the plane remain stable in pitch?  Big grin It does indeed seem a bit tricky....



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineRendezvous From New Zealand, joined May 2001, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8994 times:

Flying from the other seat does take a bit of getting used to. I tried landing the Cessna 172 from the right seat a few weeks ago (I was the safety pilot) and I found it quite difficult. I'm sure with a bit of practice it would be a fair bit easier though.

User currently offlineDeskPilot From Australia, joined Apr 2004, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8948 times:

When an Airbus is in normal law (mode), I take it you don't have to trim ? So, once you remove pressure and the sidestick returns to neutral, the aircraft holds that pitch, roll, etc - correct ?

How do you coordinate this with the rudder ?



By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
25 Starlionblue : When an Airbus is in normal law (mode), I take it you don't have to trim ? So, once you remove pressure and the sidestick returns to neutral, the airc
26 Rendezvous : So if you bank the aircraft to say, 30 degrees angle of bank, do you still need to apply back pressure, or does the computer take care of this for you
27 Buckfifty : Sidestick feedback: In Airbus training I stumped the instructor. He was talking about flight control laws and said that in Direct Law you'd get the EC
28 KYIPpilot : A NW A-320 pilot told me that after about 20 minutes with the sidestick, it felt natural and that it should have always been that way.
29 Starlionblue : So if you bank the aircraft to say, 30 degrees angle of bank, do you still need to apply back pressure, or does the computer take care of this for you
30 BuyantUkhaa : Landing an Airbus: Guys it doesn't have to be an insult. The Airbus says it three times as a verb, only after that does it become a noun. Eh, I'm gett
31 XFSUgimpLB41X : Buyant- It says "retard, retard, retard"
32 Orville : I always get a kick whenever I hear about the "retard" callout. I'm sure some pilots take it personally.
33 XFSUgimpLB41X : Why would a pilot take it personally? its just coupled to the radio altimeter telling you when to pull the power out... Some of you people on here rea
34 Orville : Hey, lighten up. I was just cracking a joke.
35 SlamClick : Actually I think the voice annunciation lost something in translation. In American English, "retard" as a verb is pronounced reTARD. Airbus clearly sa
36 Post contains images Hirnie : So, is the Airbus speaking American English or British English?
37 Post contains images Starlionblue : French English. Ahem, I meant "International English"
38 LHSebi : Hi all, Stupid question, but how is trim set in an airbus manually? I know the Boeings have the two "switches" on the outer side of the yoke, but the
39 Starlionblue : IIRC there is a little toggle on the stick.
40 Post contains links and images SlamClick : Airbus has a pair of little pitch trim wheels on either side of the center pedestal. When manual pitch trim is required, with the stick centered, the
41 LongHauler : IIRC there is a little toggle on the stick There are no trim controls on the sidestick, only autopilot disconnect, and radio transmit button. As Slamc
42 Post contains images FriendlySkies : French English. Ahem, I meant "International English" In America, we call it Freedom English. j/k
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